Human life more important than the life of a tree?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2010, 06:38:37 AM »
You guys seem to be forgetting that even in those terms humans possess the ability to improve life on Earth in ways that trees never could. That we generally don't is not to say we therefore have less value.

This is exactly why I responded the way I did in my first post. Our lives have no more value; our sapience does. If you remove that sapience -- for example, consider a brain-dead person -- then there is no difference.


Well, that really depends on your theory of value, and whether you think value is subjective or objective. But in the kind of objective 'food-chain' terms Chris is describing, humans are more valuable than trees.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2010, 08:58:49 AM »
Hmm, I think Wilmore's right, from an objectional viewpoint humans can grow forests or plants which ultimately increase the energy available.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2010, 01:41:53 PM »
I'm pretty sure a vegetarian diet is healthier than a normal meat diet, if it is done properly.

You're comparing 2 completely different diets.
A "vegetarian diet... done properly" would be one that has been carefully constructed by a dietician to fulfill all your nutritional requirements.
A "normal meat diet" on the other hand, in North America at least, consists of larger than recommended portions and a heavy concentration of low quality carbohydrates with a severe deficiency in fruit and vegetables.

I believe a properly balanced and portion controlled diet consisting of a variety of foods designed to maximize nutritional value will always be a good diet whether you choose to exclude meat or not.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Vindictus

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2010, 04:14:15 PM »
I'm pretty sure a vegetarian diet is healthier than a normal meat diet, if it is done properly.

You're comparing 2 completely different diets.
A "vegetarian diet... done properly" would be one that has been carefully constructed by a dietician to fulfill all your nutritional requirements.
A "normal meat diet" on the other hand, in North America at least, consists of larger than recommended portions and a heavy concentration of low quality carbohydrates with a severe deficiency in fruit and vegetables.

I believe a properly balanced and portion controlled diet consisting of a variety of foods designed to maximize nutritional value will always be a good diet whether you choose to exclude meat or not.

No, a normal meat diet is a balanced diet that, if compared to a constructed vegetarian diet, would also have to be constructed by a dietitian and be nutritionally sound. I don't infer 'typical American diet' from 'normal meat diet', but I see how one could. Bad choice of words.

I agree with your conclusion. I prefaced with 'pretty sure', because of some very minor health risks associated with meat, as well as the costs and ethical concerns (if they're relevant to you).

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berny_74

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2010, 06:49:08 PM »
I'm pretty sure a vegetarian diet is healthier than a normal meat diet, if it is done properly.

You're comparing 2 completely different diets.
A "vegetarian diet... done properly" would be one that has been carefully constructed by a dietician to fulfill all your nutritional requirements.
A "normal meat diet" on the other hand, in North America at least, consists of larger than recommended portions and a heavy concentration of low quality carbohydrates with a severe deficiency in fruit and vegetables.

I believe a properly balanced and portion controlled diet consisting of a variety of foods designed to maximize nutritional value will always be a good diet whether you choose to exclude meat or not.

The Inuit had a close to 100% diet consisting of animial proteins and was considered one of the healthiest diets around.  Obviously as times change and it becomes easier to ship north american type foods their diet is changing.  I believe in Canada the Inuit are the last of the first nations to abandon their traditional diets.  Like many first nations they will probably start to suffer from diabetes and other sicknesses.  Although many First Nations are attempting to reverse the changes this is much easier said then done.

Berny
Likes his meat.  And potatoes.  And Sauerkraut.  And Bread.  And Cheese.  And you get the picture
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
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Vindictus

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2010, 06:59:13 PM »


The Inuit had a close to 100% diet consisting of animial proteins and was considered one of the healthiest diets around.  Obviously as times change and it becomes easier to ship north american type foods their diet is changing.  I believe in Canada the Inuit are the last of the first nations to abandon their traditional diets.  Like many first nations they will probably start to suffer from diabetes and other sicknesses.  Although many First Nations are attempting to reverse the changes this is much easier said then done.

Berny
Likes his meat.  And potatoes.  And Sauerkraut.  And Bread.  And Cheese.  And you get the picture

That may be true, but the huge diversity of animals they consume and the manner in which they consume them (sometimes raw, which maintains various vitamins typically destroyed by heat), is not available to the typical person in any way, shape, or form. Good luck finding fresh seal brains, or a walrus steak :P

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berny_74

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2010, 10:03:36 PM »


The Inuit had a close to 100% diet consisting of animial proteins and was considered one of the healthiest diets around.  Obviously as times change and it becomes easier to ship north american type foods their diet is changing.  I believe in Canada the Inuit are the last of the first nations to abandon their traditional diets.  Like many first nations they will probably start to suffer from diabetes and other sicknesses.  Although many First Nations are attempting to reverse the changes this is much easier said then done.

Berny
Likes his meat.  And potatoes.  And Sauerkraut.  And Bread.  And Cheese.  And you get the picture

That may be true, but the huge diversity of animals they consume and the manner in which they consume them (sometimes raw, which maintains various vitamins typically destroyed by heat), is not available to the typical person in any way, shape, or form. Good luck finding fresh seal brains, or a walrus steak :P

Not with PETA hanging around.

Berny
Hungry - for... not seal brains at least
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
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Raist

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2010, 09:27:42 AM »
You guys seem to be forgetting that even in those terms humans possess the ability to improve life on Earth in ways that trees never could. That we generally don't is not to say we therefore have less value.

This is exactly why I responded the way I did in my first post. Our lives have no more value; our sapience does. If you remove that sapience -- for example, consider a brain-dead person -- then there is no difference.

A brain dead person's very existence kills trees and uses up resources. (paperwork, life support, etc) I would say they are less valuable than a tree.

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berny_74

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2010, 01:56:08 PM »
You guys seem to be forgetting that even in those terms humans possess the ability to improve life on Earth in ways that trees never could. That we generally don't is not to say we therefore have less value.

This is exactly why I responded the way I did in my first post. Our lives have no more value; our sapience does. If you remove that sapience -- for example, consider a brain-dead person -- then there is no difference.

A brain dead person's very existence kills trees and uses up resources. (paperwork, life support, etc) I would say they are less valuable than a tree.

A brain dead person has a lot of resources in the terms of organs to donate.  It would be worthwhile keeping him alive just to get at bits and pieces of them.  Sounds pretty bad I know.  I just wish organ donation was either mandatory - or someone has to make a specific effort to remove themselves from the list, then the problem may be reduced.

Berny
When I die take what you want. 
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2010, 07:44:39 AM »
I think the first thing we have to do is decide what we mean by 'more important'. Whether something is important or not is essentially a question of value: what do we place value in/consider valuable, what don't we place value in/consider valuable. In philosophy, theories which attempt to explain why we value certain things (and indicate what we should value) are known as 'value theories' or 'theories of value'.


Value theories come in all shapes and sizes, and there really isn't enough time or space to into these things in detail (never midn that I'm not exactly qualified to go in-depth with any real confidence), so I'll just skim some the basic issues/questions related to value theory.


First of all, we have to ask whether value is relative or absolute. Is a tree's value subjective, i.e. does its value change depending on who or what is 'looking at it'? For example, if value is relative, then a tree may have great value to a badger living in a den underneath it, whereas the same tree may be worth nothing to a farmer looking to clear land. These may seem like obvious, common-sense statements, but the point is that if value is relative, then nothing is valuable in and of itself. This has profound consequences for 'common-sense' or normative notions of right and wrong. If value is relative, and Man 2 is more valuable to Man 1 as a slave than he is free, then some would argue that Man 1 does nothing wrong by enslaving him. This latter point morphs into moral theory, but gives you an idea of the consequences. Relative theories of value are usually referred to as 'Agent-relative' value theories.


If value is absolute, then things possess a given value which exists independently of experience; i.e. a tree has value, even if it is of no use to us or we simply do not consider it valuable. For example, many believe that life or freedom are things with inherent value, and on that basis argue that slavery is morally wrong. Again, this ties into (and is affected by) your particular moral theory, but value theory and moral theory really are two sides of the same coin. Absolute theories of value are usually referred to as 'Agent-neutral' value theories.


We then have to ask if something's value is inherent/intrinsic or instrumental. In other words, is something valuable in and of itself (e.g. "life is sacred", "Live free or die"), or is it valuable as a means to an end, i.e. acheiving something else we consider valuable (e.g. "By creating a culture in which life/freedom is valued, we will have a better quality of life overall)? Some would say things have an inherent value and an instrumental value. For example, freedom might be viewed as having inherent value, but it could also be argued that societies which promote freedom are better in terms of other things we consider valuable (e.g. quality of life).


There are other distinctions concerning value, but these are less important and slightly more technical.


Personally, I view value as relative, not absolute, but not subjective. In my view we can justifiably place different values on the same things according to our circumstances. However, I also think the value still has a direct or indirect link to the objective world (e.g. the value of food as a means of survival). I don't think things have inherent value, or any worth in and of themselves.


So basically, if you ask me whether or not a human life is more important than a tree, I have to ask three questions:


1) Which tree's life are we talking about?

2) Which human's life are we talking about?

3) Who's asking?


Personally, I don't think this question (or any similar question) can be answered in a meaningful way without that information. But that's just my opinion!


P.S. Forgive any spelling mistakes, I was in a rush and did not have time to proof-read this. Off to see Chromeo live, w00t!
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Raist

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2010, 10:52:51 AM »
You guys seem to be forgetting that even in those terms humans possess the ability to improve life on Earth in ways that trees never could. That we generally don't is not to say we therefore have less value.

This is exactly why I responded the way I did in my first post. Our lives have no more value; our sapience does. If you remove that sapience -- for example, consider a brain-dead person -- then there is no difference.

A brain dead person's very existence kills trees and uses up resources. (paperwork, life support, etc) I would say they are less valuable than a tree.

A brain dead person has a lot of resources in the terms of organs to donate.  It would be worthwhile keeping him alive just to get at bits and pieces of them.  Sounds pretty bad I know.  I just wish organ donation was either mandatory - or someone has to make a specific effort to remove themselves from the list, then the problem may be reduced.

Berny
When I die take what you want. 

Well then they would have to be kept alive the whole journey to surgery. You know that killing them would get you the organs faster, right?

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berny_74

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2010, 09:28:59 AM »
You guys seem to be forgetting that even in those terms humans possess the ability to improve life on Earth in ways that trees never could. That we generally don't is not to say we therefore have less value.

This is exactly why I responded the way I did in my first post. Our lives have no more value; our sapience does. If you remove that sapience -- for example, consider a brain-dead person -- then there is no difference.

A brain dead person's very existence kills trees and uses up resources. (paperwork, life support, etc) I would say they are less valuable than a tree.

A brain dead person has a lot of resources in the terms of organs to donate.  It would be worthwhile keeping him alive just to get at bits and pieces of them.  Sounds pretty bad I know.  I just wish organ donation was either mandatory - or someone has to make a specific effort to remove themselves from the list, then the problem may be reduced.

Berny
When I die take what you want. 

Well then they would have to be kept alive the whole journey to surgery. You know that killing them would get you the organs faster, right?

Well right now yes - there is a huge shortage of organs.  But what if everybody was automatically considered an organ donor?  Hopefully this would cut down on the waiting list and actually provide a "glut" of organs that can be kept running in a body until needed.

Of course this would be moot once Organs can be grown on trees truly making this thread a worthwhile question.

Berny
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To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Crustinator

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2010, 09:46:53 AM »
sapience

Trees have more sap than humans.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2010, 09:58:01 AM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2010, 01:28:29 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Crustinator

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2010, 02:05:16 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Irrelevant.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2010, 05:56:16 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Because we were created in God's image.  Trees were not.

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Crustinator

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2010, 09:42:45 AM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Because we were created in God's image.  Trees were not.

lol. Evidence please.

NB Shitty old books are not evidence.

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Vindictus

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2010, 01:17:44 PM »


lol. Evidence please.

NB Shitty old books are not evidence.

inb420pages

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2010, 01:21:56 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Because we were created in God's image.  Trees were not.

Trees can survive without humans, humans could not survive without trees. Even with God's image I can see which is more important.


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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2010, 03:07:13 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Because we were created in God's image.  Trees were not.

Trees can survive without humans, humans could not survive without trees. Even with God's image I can see which is more important.



Really?  Those guys on the space station(FET not withstanding) are screwed.

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Crustinator

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2010, 03:08:46 PM »
Really?  Those guys on the space station(FET not withstanding) are screwed.

Well observed. I'll put a call into NASA and tell them to check the oxygen bottles.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2010, 03:29:28 PM »
Really?  Those guys on the space station(FET not withstanding) are screwed.

Well observed. I'll put a call into NASA and tell them to check the oxygen bottles.

Or the water tanks.

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berny_74

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2010, 06:38:04 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Because we were created in God's image.  Trees were not.

Trees can survive without humans, humans could not survive without trees. Even with God's image I can see which is more important.



The Inuit do pretty good and there are not really what one would  call trees that far north.

Berny
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To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
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Raist

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2010, 10:07:02 PM »
Is human life more important or valuable than the life of a tree? What about the life of a turtle or deer?

Yes.
Why?

Because we were created in God's image.  Trees were not.

Trees can survive without humans, humans could not survive without trees. Even with God's image I can see which is more important.



Umm. Are you stupid or just bs'ing?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2010, 10:46:51 PM »
Plants are an incredibly important part of the ecosystem. While it may technically be possible to remove trees without one specific species (humans for example) dying, their existence is foundational for the rest of the biosphere (unlike humans), which I believe was Chris' point. Wardogg's example of any isolated population (let's say a submarine to avoid dragging FE into this) is just an issue of hoarding natural resources dependent on that plant life and relocating it in order to forget crediting the source. A steak still comes from a cow, even if it's wasn't in the room with you.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 10:52:53 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Raist

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2010, 11:02:02 PM »
Plants are an incredibly important part of the ecosystem. While it may technically be possible to remove trees without one specific species (humans for example) dying, their existence is foundational for the rest of the biosphere (unlike humans), which I believe was Chris' point. Wardogg's example of any isolated population (let's say a submarine to avoid dragging FE into this) is just an issue of hoarding natural resources dependent on that plant life and relocating it in order to forget crediting the source. A steak still comes from a cow, even if it's wasn't in the room with you.

So the biosphere is essential for human life?

He simply said trees are essential for human life. Also, please be aware that tree and plant are not interchangeable and that no large plant provides any real source of oxygen. The majority of biomass derived from the sun comes from open ocean single celled organisms as this is the largest biome by far.

So no, human life is not dependent on trees, and it has been shown that human life can be sustained for an extended period of time on plankton, for nutrition and oxygen.

Please don't confuse dependent upon with existing within the same biosphere, it is incredibly pointless and will just result in an "everything depends on everything debate" resulting in a giant gaia fapfest.

aight?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2010, 01:36:57 AM »
It's common knowledge that trees are almost useless for producing oxygen, and yet I believe you still misunderstood the point of my post. I was applying my focus to Chris' intentions and content rather than the technicalities. He defined 'importance' as a function of the food chain, and I was calling attention to this larger picture than any potential implications. I too, do not feel like arguing over how much the biosphere would suffer from the loss of all trees, but surely you would agree humans do not sustain trees the same way trees sustain humans, right?

The reason I feel comfortable saying 'plants', is because I am referring back to the debate structure rather than the insignificantly imposed details. It was largely a response to Wardogg's chain of logic, in which plants would make for a better illustration. There was no reason to limit the example (Edit: I assume plants are not made in god's image), and at no point was I implying plants are trees.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 01:46:38 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2010, 02:32:21 AM »
Trees can survive without humans, humans could not survive without trees. Even with God's image I can see which is more important.


But can you explain why they're more important? I'm not sure your position has any more strength or validity than Wardogg's. The statement that trees are more important than humans is no more self-evident than the statement that humans are more important than trees.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Raist

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Re: Human life more important than the life of a tree?
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2010, 08:52:55 AM »
It's common knowledge that trees are almost useless for producing oxygen, and yet I believe you still misunderstood the point of my post. I was applying my focus to Chris' intentions and content rather than the technicalities. He defined 'importance' as a function of the food chain, and I was calling attention to this larger picture than any potential implications. I too, do not feel like arguing over how much the biosphere would suffer from the loss of all trees, but surely you would agree humans do not sustain trees the same way trees sustain humans, right?

The reason I feel comfortable saying 'plants', is because I am referring back to the debate structure rather than the insignificantly imposed details. It was largely a response to Wardogg's chain of logic, in which plants would make for a better illustration. There was no reason to limit the example (Edit: I assume plants are not made in god's image), and at no point was I implying plants are trees.

I would say that within the past 50 years humans have increased trees numbers and fitness. Most logging companies either replant the trees they harvest, or recut the same woods every so many years allowing the trees to repopulate and remake a forest.

Trees at most supply us with building materials and fruit, as far as importance goes, I see that as an abstract concept unimportant in this debate. All I wanted to say was trees and humans do not depend on each other.