Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war

  • 1084 Replies
  • 172805 Views
*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10061
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #390 on: November 11, 2010, 03:44:02 PM »
Like the mirror universe, I guess.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #391 on: November 11, 2010, 03:45:35 PM »
When was it explained that it was a different universe?  Same universe, different timeline.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #392 on: November 11, 2010, 06:58:38 PM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 07:00:16 PM by Mugthulhu »

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #393 on: November 11, 2010, 07:05:24 PM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

It was more interesting to watch than any other Star Trek put on screen. I think that's due to the fact that they tried to mimic Star Wars. On the flipside it was missing the really good writing and lovable characters of previous Star Trek movies.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10061
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #394 on: November 11, 2010, 07:53:59 PM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

This film, along with (sort of) The Animated Series, belong to the realm of the Trek that shan't be named.

*

EnglshGentleman

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 9548
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #395 on: November 11, 2010, 09:23:55 PM »
I loved that movie...

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #396 on: November 11, 2010, 09:42:08 PM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

Again, when was it explained that it was a different universe in the movie, as was claimed.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #397 on: November 11, 2010, 10:12:13 PM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

Again, when was it explained that it was a different universe in the movie, as was claimed.

If I remember right they said it was different timeline in the same universe.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10061
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #398 on: November 11, 2010, 10:16:53 PM »
They didn't explain it because that wasn't what the film was about.

Hence, just pretend it never happened.


*

Lorddave

  • 18146
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #400 on: November 12, 2010, 12:35:33 AM »
Ok, I want to discuss Round Earth Guy's shield limit argument.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43465.msg1085754#msg1085754

First off, you can't use an analogy that describes the environment as factual numbers.  Impacting the bow of the ship like multi-megaton compression bombs, which don't seem to exist according to wookiepedia, except nuclear compression bombs used in the Great Sith Wars but I doubt that's what he was talking about.
In any case, the wording was likely used to describe the environment.  Inside the ship SOUNDED like (as well as shook like) multi-megaton compression bombs hitting it as a steady rain.
We also know that vibrations(such as that when you hear rain on a tin roof) make it sound like it's heavier and/or more powerful of an impact than it really is.  Also the asteroid field was made up of MANY sizes of asteroids, most of them very small so it's likely that the steady rain was the smaller asteroids impacting the shields, which would produce a steady rain as well as shake the ship.  How?  Well if a turbolaser blast shakes a ship when it impacts (See the Falcon shaking about) then the shields don't stop the actual concussion force of an explosion or if they do, they get pushed by said explosion and in turn push the ship.  This is the most likely case since it allows for the ship to be hit and the force of the impact vibrating the shields in various parts of the ship which would also cause the ship's hull to vibrate as well.  

So, the actual impacts.
We see in one scene small "impact" explosions on one Star Destroyer for very small asteroids.  This likely shows the impact against shields which means that the shields vaporize what they hit.  
We also know that one single asteroid that was probably 250m in diameter hit the Star Destroyer's bridge tower and destroyed it.  The rest of the ship was also destroyed as per the novel's statement.  We did see a bright flash so it's likely that the rock hit the shields but had too much mass and momentum to be destroyed and impacted the hull with most of it's mass, resulting in the ship being destroyed.
We also know that (let's say a day) of being in the field resulted in heavy damage to the ships.  
We also know that when a solid object impacts a ship, the ship will shake.  
We ALSO know that the shields around a ship are skin tight.  We know that by the closeness of the two star destroyers during the chase scene.  Had their shields been a bubble, it would have caused the two shields to hit each other.  Or they didn't have their shields up.
We also know that a turbolaser blast that hits the deflector shield will cause an explosion and thus a concussion force against the target.

So let's assume that each ship received equal damage during that day.  The actual quote was "considering the damage we've sustained..." which means that the asteroid impacts did cause damage.  If that's the case then the shields did not actually stop the impacts but more than likely lessened them.  The energy of the impacts must have transferred through the shields and onto the hull.  We know that they explode when they impact the shields and that force translates back onto the ship.  It's likely, then, that the damage sustained is the result of the impact force vibrating and damaging the hull.  While not the full force, vibrating conduits of plasma violently could cause them to break and damage the surrounding area.

Or starship shields don't protect against physical objects and what we saw was the impact of the asteroid on the hull.  This is unlikely as the Death Star's shield was capable of destroying anything that impacted it.  How it does this is anyone's guess but it's likely a vibration of an energy field that is much higher than the frequency of visible light and IR but probably not X-Rays or above, allowing them to be visible but not exposed.  
In either case, we're left to the art department's mercy on this one.  

Energy Weapons vs Shields
Now Turbolasers explode when they hit shields.  Oddly enough, the force of the explosion doesn't seem to be great.  It also produces a concussion force that shakes the ship.   There is also no visible impact on the shields, just explosions and explosions that occur several meters from the hull.  Now if the bolts are plasma based particle weapons held in shape by a magentic containment, then the most likely explanation is that the shields are magnetic in nature and the disruptive magnetic field destroys the plasma bolt's containment, causing it to explode instead of impacting the hull and applying all it's energy to the hell directly.  This explains why a concussion force (the explosion) causes damage to the ship.  It's also likely that as the specific area of the shields are hit, the effectiveness of the area to generate a sufficient magnetic field to counter the turbolaser's energy containment lessens,which causes the "explosion" to occur closer and closer. (ie. it takes more time to collapse the turbolaser bolt as the shields take damage)

Shields and solid objects
The shield system is not perfect when it comes to sold objects.  Ships and fighters are able to easily pass through the shields at designated points such as hanger bays.  The Droid ship in TPM had young skywalker fly right into the hanger bay indicating that the hanger bays are shielded to keep atmosphere in but not keep larger objects out.  This is likely a field strength limit, in a sense.  The air has relatively low force against the shield than a ship would so the ship is able to move through it and the air is not. If the air had enough pressure, it could.   For the moment though, let's assume that this area is specifically designed to have no ship shielding.
This also brings up the Falcon landing on the Star Destroyer.  Now, some say that the shield could have been dropped but any imperial who drops the shields of their ship because they suddenly lost their target is a fool.  
Also, if the ship's power generator is as powerful as you say, there is no reason not to have the shields up constantly.

Now, given all this, shields can't absorb energy.  If they did, each turbolaser shot would vanish without a resulting explosion.  The only conclusion I can draw is that the matter shields (you said there were two types of shields) imparts specific energy to an object that enter's it's plane and that energy is what causes the destruction of objects and that the explosive force can still impact the hull since energy can't be used to stop energy.  
Ray shielding likely is designed for blaster type fire, which is likely to be plasma in nature, and thus has a magnetic field(lots of moving electrons means magnetic field)  that contains the plasma and keeps it from exploding once it leave the turbolaser barrel. The ray shielding disrupts the magnetic field resulting in the plasma exploding as though it hit a solid object.

The problem with this is that turbolaser bolts come from the ship as well and aren't stopped by any shields.  Even the Death Star's mighty laser could pass through it's defense shield with ease.  The only way around this is to have the shields have frequencies or be mono-directional meaning they push out but don't keep things in.

When we allow two separate shield systems, the canon fits better.  The Star Destroyers would only have their ray shields up to conserve power (the Falcon only had blasters) and would have had them up during the asteroid search (possibly both).  Once they cleared the asteroid field, there was no longer a need and the power used to keep that up was diverted to the ship's engines or something.
It also explains why the Executor was more worried about something getting through and thus intensifying the forward batteries rather than trying to move away from the rebel fleet's turbolasers.  After all, if an A-Wing can suicide into the bridge and destroy it, a single turbolaser shot would have done the same job, if not a better one.  So the only thing I can conclude is that the ray shielding was still up but the mass shielding that protected it from missiles, torpedoes, and suicide ships, fell.
It also explains why the shield on Hoth could withstand an orbital bombardment but walkers and troops could walk right through it.

So, summary:
SW shields are broken down into two groups: Matter shields and energy shields.  
Neither shield can protect against an explosion's force.  They can protect from direct damage but not the force.
Energy shields pre-maturely destroy turbolaser blasts.
Matter shields put energy into whatever hits them to destroy them.  This allows them to have ships move in and out of the shield system to dock and what-not.
Atmospheric shielding and probably ray shielding is in place around docking ports but not matter shielding or if it is, it's turned down significantly so ships can enter and exit.


So how does this help?
Well it shows that SW shields aren't as powerful as assumed.  They don't absorb the full energy of a turbolaser shot but rather keep it from impacting the hull, which requires significantly less energy.
Objects with enough mass can pass through matter shields.  They simply have to have more mass than can be destroyed by the shield system in the half a second the energy field has before the object impacts it.
Quarks can also pass through with ease.  They're sub-atomic and thus far too small to be stopped like normal matter and radioactive particles are.  Ray shielding is likely magnetic based and also not an issue for quarks.  
Their shields are unable to defend against a sustained energy beam. A particle beam would also penetrate their shields if it was sustained long enough to push through the ray shield.  The confinement field of the beam would be removed at the shield causing the beam to disperse in all directions except directly back along the beam's initial path.  Instead the force of the particles would constantly be pushing downwards, resulting in most of the energy making it through the ray shielding.  The particles are already energetic so the matter shield would not do anything to stop them.  (you can't blow up energized particles)

How does this hurt?
Star Trek shields work on the principal of deflecting the energy around the ship using graviton based fields.  They're more effective at stopping a wider variety of things from radiation to subatomic particles to small asteroids.  The downside is that the force impacting the shields must be equal to the force the shields put out.  So if something hits with X joules, the shields must push back with the same amount of energy.  However, impacting the shields with a turbolaser would cause 50% of the explosive force to be reflected by the shields while the rest of it is not. (omnidirectional explosion)
Conversely, SW ships deal with 50% of the explosive force against their hull from a distance of several meters, decreasing the actual damage sustained.

You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #401 on: November 12, 2010, 12:43:21 AM »
tl;dr
also, rotating shield harmonics

*

Lorddave

  • 18146
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #402 on: November 12, 2010, 12:52:24 AM »
Ground Forces


There isn't much to touch on here because Star Trek is about space ships, not ground forces.  It's rare we see ground military and even then we only saw two instances: 1 was inside a cave and the other was a small guard detail at a hospital.

However, tanks, walkers, and other armored vehicles only work well on relatively flat landscape.  Imperial Walkers could easily be blocked by thick forests, forcing them to blast their way through.  These walks are also incapable of standing up after falling down, making their use on rocky terrain limited and risky.  And since 99% of all Star Trek was about a ship and it's crew as it traveled through the stars with only ONE series having a war (and even then, only two shots of ground force structure) the inclusion of tanks and ground defenses can't be inferred.  It's like watching McHale's Navy and concluding that tanks didn't exist.

As for planetary shields, apparently they DO have them.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ty%27Gokor
Quote
The planetoid was protected by a powerful defensive shield and a tachyon detection grid, as well as several orbital facilities.
It's just not often that they're set up.  And unlike SW planetary shields, you can't land on the planet and walk through it to destroy the generator.

There are also self-replicating mines, subspace mines (mines that phase into real space and explode at random), orbital weapons platforms, ect...
And if you want to ask me why Earth, a planet that wasn't at war, was able to be attacked easily and without any defenses being shown, I'll have to point to the bolded part as the answer.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

*

EnglshGentleman

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 9548
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #403 on: November 12, 2010, 01:10:27 AM »
ITT Lorddave pwns.

*

Lorddave

  • 18146
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #404 on: November 12, 2010, 01:12:36 AM »
ITT Lorddave pwns.

I said I needed at least 2 hours to post and I damn well meant it.
Also, that's getting sigged.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

*

Wendy

  • 18492
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #405 on: November 12, 2010, 04:41:01 AM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

Again, when was it explained that it was a different universe in the movie, as was claimed.

If I remember right they said it was different timeline in the same universe.

I'm pretty sure old Spock explained that he was from an alternate universe.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #406 on: November 12, 2010, 04:51:41 AM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

Again, when was it explained that it was a different universe in the movie, as was claimed.

If I remember right they said it was different timeline in the same universe.

I'm pretty sure old Spock explained that he was from an alternate universe.

No, watch it again.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

*

Wendy

  • 18492
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #407 on: November 12, 2010, 05:01:51 AM »
Do I have to?

Anyway, we'll say you're right for now. The difference, however, is semantic at best. The TOS timeline/universe and the '09 movie timeline/universe both had the same starting point, somewhere along the line, but they are vastly different. You can't call the '09 movie canon no matter the method in which they did it, because it's still a reboot. And by "you," I don't mean you, personally, Keldarion.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

*

Lorddave

  • 18146
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #408 on: November 12, 2010, 05:02:46 AM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

Again, when was it explained that it was a different universe in the movie, as was claimed.

If I remember right they said it was different timeline in the same universe.

I'm pretty sure old Spock explained that he was from an alternate universe.
Young Spock does actually.  He talks about how the jump through time would have created an alternate timeline where the events of their lives would have been different.
Then Kirk tells him that there's no time wondering about what our lives would have been, they have to focus on now.

You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

*

berny_74

  • 1786
  • The IceWall! Beat that
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #409 on: November 12, 2010, 07:01:09 AM »
Ground Forces

There isn't much to touch on here because Star Trek is about space ships, not ground forces.  It's rare we see ground military and even then we only saw two instances: 1 was inside a cave and the other was a small guard detail at a hospital.


Wouldn't a ground force be more about pacification and subjugation?  Neither is very common in the Federation part of the galaxy.  A single orbiting ship could render all but the most hardened ground targets to dust (this includes both SW and ST).

Any side that lost control of the space around a system has pretty much lost.

Berny
More 2cents

 
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10061
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #410 on: November 12, 2010, 08:20:03 AM »
Ground Forces

There isn't much to touch on here because Star Trek is about space ships, not ground forces.  It's rare we see ground military and even then we only saw two instances: 1 was inside a cave and the other was a small guard detail at a hospital.


Wouldn't a ground force be more about pacification and subjugation?  Neither is very common in the Federation part of the galaxy.  A single orbiting ship could render all but the most hardened ground targets to dust (this includes both SW and ST).

Any side that lost control of the space around a system has pretty much lost.

Berny
More 2cents

Exactly. The only time we see ground forces in Star Wars is when a specific ground point helps control space, e.g. the shield generator in Return of the Jedi. Any real war is not going to utilize ground forces as much as ships. The only reason we see so many stormtroopers in Star Wars is because we're following Luke and Co, which usually means a lot of running around. If you were to follow a ship in the Rebel Alliance, there wouldn't be so many stormtroopers.

*

berny_74

  • 1786
  • The IceWall! Beat that
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #411 on: November 12, 2010, 08:46:05 AM »
Ground Forces

There isn't much to touch on here because Star Trek is about space ships, not ground forces.  It's rare we see ground military and even then we only saw two instances: 1 was inside a cave and the other was a small guard detail at a hospital.


Wouldn't a ground force be more about pacification and subjugation?  Neither is very common in the Federation part of the galaxy.  A single orbiting ship could render all but the most hardened ground targets to dust (this includes both SW and ST).

Any side that lost control of the space around a system has pretty much lost.

Berny
More 2cents

Exactly. The only time we see ground forces in Star Wars is when a specific ground point helps control space, e.g. the shield generator in Return of the Jedi. Any real war is not going to utilize ground forces as much as ships. The only reason we see so many stormtroopers in Star Wars is because we're following Luke and Co, which usually means a lot of running around. If you were to follow a ship in the Rebel Alliance, there wouldn't be so many stormtroopers.

Well - the Empire requires force to keep populations under thumb.  Stormtroopers may be a secondtier force, compared to the "Navy", but they can be used to intimidate a population and keep a planet's production going.  A la  Occupation Force of Bajor.
Therefore all those Storm Troopers we see falling off bridges, knocking heads on door lintels, getting bolo'd to death by Ewoks could very well be just the dregs of the Empire's recruiting abilities.  Its the Navy that does the real work.

Berny
Expects a few Jarhead comments.

To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #412 on: November 12, 2010, 01:22:06 PM »
Ok, I want to discuss Round Earth Guy's shield limit argument.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43465.msg1085754#msg1085754


FINALLY

Quote

First off, you can't use an analogy that describes the environment as factual numbers.  Impacting the bow of the ship like multi-megaton compression bombs, which don't seem to exist according to wookiepedia, except nuclear compression bombs used in the Great Sith Wars but I doubt that's what he was talking about.
In any case, the wording was likely used to describe the environment.  Inside the ship SOUNDED like (as well as shook like) multi-megaton compression bombs hitting it as a steady rain.


Mmhhmmm.

Quote
We also know that vibrations(such as that when you hear rain on a tin roof) make it sound like it's heavier and/or more powerful of an impact than it really is.  Also the asteroid field was made up of MANY sizes of asteroids, most of them very small so it's likely that the steady rain was the smaller asteroids impacting the shields, which would produce a steady rain as well as shake the ship.  How?  Well if a turbolaser blast shakes a ship when it impacts (See the Falcon shaking about) then the shields don't stop the actual concussion force of an explosion or if they do, they get pushed by said explosion and in turn push the ship.  This is the most likely case since it allows for the ship to be hit and the force of the impact vibrating the shields in various parts of the ship which would also cause the ship's hull to vibrate as well.  

Although the asteroids would vibrate the ship, would it vibrate it like MULTI MEGATON COMPRESSION BOMBS?  That would imply a huge amount of kinetic energy and momentum from said asteroids.

Quote
So, the actual impacts.
We see in one scene small "impact" explosions on one Star Destroyer for very small asteroids.  This likely shows the impact against shields which means that the shields vaporize what they hit.

Maybe.

Quote
 
We also know that one single asteroid that was probably 250m in diameter hit the Star Destroyer's bridge tower and destroyed it.  The rest of the ship was also destroyed as per the novel's statement.  We did see a bright flash so it's likely that the rock hit the shields but had too much mass and momentum to be destroyed and impacted the hull with most of it's mass, resulting in the ship being destroyed.
We also know that (let's say a day) of being in the field resulted in heavy damage to the ships.  
We also know that when a solid object impacts a ship, the ship will shake.  
We ALSO know that the shields around a ship are skin tight.  We know that by the closeness of the two star destroyers during the chase scene.  Had their shields been a bubble, it would have caused the two shields to hit each other.  Or they didn't have their shields up.
We also know that a turbolaser blast that hits the deflector shield will cause an explosion and thus a concussion force against the target.

So let's assume that each ship received equal damage during that day.  The actual quote was "considering the damage we've sustained..." which means that the asteroid impacts did cause damage.  If that's the case then the shields did not actually stop the impacts but more than likely lessened them.  The energy of the impacts must have transferred through the shields and onto the hull.  We know that they explode when they impact the shields and that force translates back onto the ship.  It's likely, then, that the damage sustained is the result of the impact force vibrating and damaging the hull.  While not the full force, vibrating conduits of plasma violently could cause them to break and damage the surrounding area.


Or starship shields don't protect against physical objects and what we saw was the impact of the asteroid on the hull.  This is unlikely as the Death Star's shield was capable of destroying anything that impacted it.  How it does this is anyone's guess but it's likely a vibration of an energy field that is much higher than the frequency of visible light and IR but probably not X-Rays or above, allowing them to be visible but not exposed.  
In either case, we're left to the art department's mercy on this one.  

Energy Weapons vs Shields
Now Turbolasers explode when they hit shields.  Oddly enough, the force of the explosion doesn't seem to be great.  It also produces a concussion force that shakes the ship.   There is also no visible impact on the shields, just explosions and explosions that occur several meters from the hull.  Now if the bolts are plasma based particle weapons held in shape by a magentic containment, then the most likely explanation is that the shields are magnetic in nature and the disruptive magnetic field destroys the plasma bolt's containment, causing it to explode instead of impacting the hull and applying all it's energy to the hell directly.  This explains why a concussion force (the explosion) causes damage to the ship.  It's also likely that as the specific area of the shields are hit, the effectiveness of the area to generate a sufficient magnetic field to counter the turbolaser's energy containment lessens,which causes the "explosion" to occur closer and closer. (ie. it takes more time to collapse the turbolaser bolt as the shields take damage)

Shields and solid objects
The shield system is not perfect when it comes to sold objects.  Ships and fighters are able to easily pass through the shields at designated points such as hanger bays.  The Droid ship in TPM had young skywalker fly right into the hanger bay indicating that the hanger bays are shielded to keep atmosphere in but not keep larger objects out.  This is likely a field strength limit, in a sense.  The air has relatively low force against the shield than a ship would so the ship is able to move through it and the air is not. If the air had enough pressure, it could.   For the moment though, let's assume that this area is specifically designed to have no ship shielding.
This also brings up the Falcon landing on the Star Destroyer.  Now, some say that the shield could have been dropped but any imperial who drops the shields of their ship because they suddenly lost their target is a fool.  
Also, if the ship's power generator is as powerful as you say, there is no reason not to have the shields up constantly.

Now, given all this, shields can't absorb energy.  If they did, each turbolaser shot would vanish without a resulting explosion.  The only conclusion I can draw is that the matter shields (you said there were two types of shields) imparts specific energy to an object that enter's it's plane and that energy is what causes the destruction of objects and that the explosive force can still impact the hull since energy can't be used to stop energy.  
Ray shielding likely is designed for blaster type fire, which is likely to be plasma in nature, and thus has a magnetic field(lots of moving electrons means magnetic field)  that contains the plasma and keeps it from exploding once it leave the turbolaser barrel. The ray shielding disrupts the magnetic field resulting in the plasma exploding as though it hit a solid object.

The problem with this is that turbolaser bolts come from the ship as well and aren't stopped by any shields.  Even the Death Star's mighty laser could pass through it's defense shield with ease.  The only way around this is to have the shields have frequencies or be mono-directional meaning they push out but don't keep things in.

When we allow two separate shield systems, the canon fits better.  The Star Destroyers would only have their ray shields up to conserve power (the Falcon only had blasters) and would have had them up during the asteroid search (possibly both).  Once they cleared the asteroid field, there was no longer a need and the power used to keep that up was diverted to the ship's engines or something.
It also explains why the Executor was more worried about something getting through and thus intensifying the forward batteries rather than trying to move away from the rebel fleet's turbolasers.  After all, if an A-Wing can suicide into the bridge and destroy it, a single turbolaser shot would have done the same job, if not a better one.  So the only thing I can conclude is that the ray shielding was still up but the mass shielding that protected it from missiles, torpedoes, and suicide ships, fell.
It also explains why the shield on Hoth could withstand an orbital bombardment but walkers and troops could walk right through it.

So, summary:
SW shields are broken down into two groups: Matter shields and energy shields.  
Neither shield can protect against an explosion's force.  They can protect from direct damage but not the force.
Energy shields pre-maturely destroy turbolaser blasts.
Matter shields put energy into whatever hits them to destroy them.  This allows them to have ships move in and out of the shield system to dock and what-not.
Atmospheric shielding and probably ray shielding is in place around docking ports but not matter shielding or if it is, it's turned down significantly so ships can enter and exit.


So how does this help?
Well it shows that SW shields aren't as powerful as assumed.  They don't absorb the full energy of a turbolaser shot but rather keep it from impacting the hull, which requires significantly less energy.
Objects with enough mass can pass through matter shields.  They simply have to have more mass than can be destroyed by the shield system in the half a second the energy field has before the object impacts it.
Quarks can also pass through with ease.  They're sub-atomic and thus far too small to be stopped like normal matter and radioactive particles are.  Ray shielding is likely magnetic based and also not an issue for quarks.  
Their shields are unable to defend against a sustained energy beam. A particle beam would also penetrate their shields if it was sustained long enough to push through the ray shield.  The confinement field of the beam would be removed at the shield causing the beam to disperse in all directions except directly back along the beam's initial path.  Instead the force of the particles would constantly be pushing downwards, resulting in most of the energy making it through the ray shielding.  The particles are already energetic so the matter shield would not do anything to stop them.  (you can't blow up energized particles)

How does this hurt?
Star Trek shields work on the principal of deflecting the energy around the ship using graviton based fields.  They're more effective at stopping a wider variety of things from radiation to subatomic particles to small asteroids.  The downside is that the force impacting the shields must be equal to the force the shields put out.  So if something hits with X joules, the shields must push back with the same amount of energy.  However, impacting the shields with a turbolaser would cause 50% of the explosive force to be reflected by the shields while the rest of it is not. (omnidirectional explosion)
Conversely, SW ships deal with 50% of the explosive force against their hull from a distance of several meters, decreasing the actual damage sustained.



Firstly, I would like to congratulate you on actually countering my argument, unlike some other posters that completely ignore it and dodge the question (sort of like most politicians), while demanding me to answer all of theirs (and, of course, not actually responding to my rebuttal).

What you're basically saying is that Star Wars shields are effective not only because of their power, but because of their design.  However, design ALSO matters, and so your justification doesn't seem to have much relevance to the effectiveness of Star Wars shields vs photon torpedos. 

Your conclusion about there being two separate shield systems is correct and supported by canon.  However, what does it do?  You're saying that "They don't absorb the full energy of a turbolaser shot but rather keep it from impacting the hull, which requires significantly less energy".  What?  Of course they keep it from impacting the hull...by absorbing its energy.  What else would you expect them to do?  Or am I getting the Science wrong?

Also, Star Trek shields actually extend out more than Star Wars shields, yet are still less effective at stopping things. 

Also, Star Trek shields are NOT more effective than Star Wars shields at stopping radiation; they're actually less effective, as shown when their resistance to radiation was around 30 megatons.  In fact, a Star Wars civilian ship went within 3000 km of a neutron star without suffering significant damage; the Enterprise's commanders were reluctant to go within several million km's of a neutron star.

*

Lorddave

  • 18146
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #413 on: November 12, 2010, 01:44:50 PM »
Quote
 
We also know that one single asteroid that was probably 250m in diameter hit the Star Destroyer's bridge tower and destroyed it.  The rest of the ship was also destroyed as per the novel's statement.  We did see a bright flash so it's likely that the rock hit the shields but had too much mass and momentum to be destroyed and impacted the hull with most of it's mass, resulting in the ship being destroyed.
We also know that (let's say a day) of being in the field resulted in heavy damage to the ships.  
We also know that when a solid object impacts a ship, the ship will shake.  
We ALSO know that the shields around a ship are skin tight.  We know that by the closeness of the two star destroyers during the chase scene.  Had their shields been a bubble, it would have caused the two shields to hit each other.  Or they didn't have their shields up.
We also know that a turbolaser blast that hits the deflector shield will cause an explosion and thus a concussion force against the target.

So let's assume that each ship received equal damage during that day.  The actual quote was "considering the damage we've sustained..." which means that the asteroid impacts did cause damage.  If that's the case then the shields did not actually stop the impacts but more than likely lessened them.  The energy of the impacts must have transferred through the shields and onto the hull.  We know that they explode when they impact the shields and that force translates back onto the ship.  It's likely, then, that the damage sustained is the result of the impact force vibrating and damaging the hull.  While not the full force, vibrating conduits of plasma violently could cause them to break and damage the surrounding area.


Or starship shields don't protect against physical objects and what we saw was the impact of the asteroid on the hull.  This is unlikely as the Death Star's shield was capable of destroying anything that impacted it.  How it does this is anyone's guess but it's likely a vibration of an energy field that is much higher than the frequency of visible light and IR but probably not X-Rays or above, allowing them to be visible but not exposed.  
In either case, we're left to the art department's mercy on this one.  

Energy Weapons vs Shields
Now Turbolasers explode when they hit shields.  Oddly enough, the force of the explosion doesn't seem to be great.  It also produces a concussion force that shakes the ship.   There is also no visible impact on the shields, just explosions and explosions that occur several meters from the hull.  Now if the bolts are plasma based particle weapons held in shape by a magentic containment, then the most likely explanation is that the shields are magnetic in nature and the disruptive magnetic field destroys the plasma bolt's containment, causing it to explode instead of impacting the hull and applying all it's energy to the hell directly.  This explains why a concussion force (the explosion) causes damage to the ship.  It's also likely that as the specific area of the shields are hit, the effectiveness of the area to generate a sufficient magnetic field to counter the turbolaser's energy containment lessens,which causes the "explosion" to occur closer and closer. (ie. it takes more time to collapse the turbolaser bolt as the shields take damage)

Shields and solid objects
The shield system is not perfect when it comes to sold objects.  Ships and fighters are able to easily pass through the shields at designated points such as hanger bays.  The Droid ship in TPM had young skywalker fly right into the hanger bay indicating that the hanger bays are shielded to keep atmosphere in but not keep larger objects out.  This is likely a field strength limit, in a sense.  The air has relatively low force against the shield than a ship would so the ship is able to move through it and the air is not. If the air had enough pressure, it could.   For the moment though, let's assume that this area is specifically designed to have no ship shielding.
This also brings up the Falcon landing on the Star Destroyer.  Now, some say that the shield could have been dropped but any imperial who drops the shields of their ship because they suddenly lost their target is a fool.  
Also, if the ship's power generator is as powerful as you say, there is no reason not to have the shields up constantly.

Now, given all this, shields can't absorb energy.  If they did, each turbolaser shot would vanish without a resulting explosion.  The only conclusion I can draw is that the matter shields (you said there were two types of shields) imparts specific energy to an object that enter's it's plane and that energy is what causes the destruction of objects and that the explosive force can still impact the hull since energy can't be used to stop energy.  
Ray shielding likely is designed for blaster type fire, which is likely to be plasma in nature, and thus has a magnetic field(lots of moving electrons means magnetic field)  that contains the plasma and keeps it from exploding once it leave the turbolaser barrel. The ray shielding disrupts the magnetic field resulting in the plasma exploding as though it hit a solid object.

The problem with this is that turbolaser bolts come from the ship as well and aren't stopped by any shields.  Even the Death Star's mighty laser could pass through it's defense shield with ease.  The only way around this is to have the shields have frequencies or be mono-directional meaning they push out but don't keep things in.

When we allow two separate shield systems, the canon fits better.  The Star Destroyers would only have their ray shields up to conserve power (the Falcon only had blasters) and would have had them up during the asteroid search (possibly both).  Once they cleared the asteroid field, there was no longer a need and the power used to keep that up was diverted to the ship's engines or something.
It also explains why the Executor was more worried about something getting through and thus intensifying the forward batteries rather than trying to move away from the rebel fleet's turbolasers.  After all, if an A-Wing can suicide into the bridge and destroy it, a single turbolaser shot would have done the same job, if not a better one.  So the only thing I can conclude is that the ray shielding was still up but the mass shielding that protected it from missiles, torpedoes, and suicide ships, fell.
It also explains why the shield on Hoth could withstand an orbital bombardment but walkers and troops could walk right through it.

So, summary:
SW shields are broken down into two groups: Matter shields and energy shields.  
Neither shield can protect against an explosion's force.  They can protect from direct damage but not the force.
Energy shields pre-maturely destroy turbolaser blasts.
Matter shields put energy into whatever hits them to destroy them.  This allows them to have ships move in and out of the shield system to dock and what-not.
Atmospheric shielding and probably ray shielding is in place around docking ports but not matter shielding or if it is, it's turned down significantly so ships can enter and exit.


So how does this help?
Well it shows that SW shields aren't as powerful as assumed.  They don't absorb the full energy of a turbolaser shot but rather keep it from impacting the hull, which requires significantly less energy.
Objects with enough mass can pass through matter shields.  They simply have to have more mass than can be destroyed by the shield system in the half a second the energy field has before the object impacts it.
Quarks can also pass through with ease.  They're sub-atomic and thus far too small to be stopped like normal matter and radioactive particles are.  Ray shielding is likely magnetic based and also not an issue for quarks.  
Their shields are unable to defend against a sustained energy beam. A particle beam would also penetrate their shields if it was sustained long enough to push through the ray shield.  The confinement field of the beam would be removed at the shield causing the beam to disperse in all directions except directly back along the beam's initial path.  Instead the force of the particles would constantly be pushing downwards, resulting in most of the energy making it through the ray shielding.  The particles are already energetic so the matter shield would not do anything to stop them.  (you can't blow up energized particles)

How does this hurt?
Star Trek shields work on the principal of deflecting the energy around the ship using graviton based fields.  They're more effective at stopping a wider variety of things from radiation to subatomic particles to small asteroids.  The downside is that the force impacting the shields must be equal to the force the shields put out.  So if something hits with X joules, the shields must push back with the same amount of energy.  However, impacting the shields with a turbolaser would cause 50% of the explosive force to be reflected by the shields while the rest of it is not. (omnidirectional explosion)
Conversely, SW ships deal with 50% of the explosive force against their hull from a distance of several meters, decreasing the actual damage sustained.



Firstly, I would like to congratulate you on actually countering my argument, unlike some other posters that completely ignore it and dodge the question (sort of like most politicians), while demanding me to answer all of theirs (and, of course, not actually responding to my rebuttal).

What you're basically saying is that Star Wars shields are effective not only because of their power, but because of their design.  However, design ALSO matters, and so your justification doesn't seem to have much relevance to the effectiveness of Star Wars shields vs photon torpedos. 

Your conclusion about there being two separate shield systems is correct and supported by canon.  However, what does it do?  You're saying that "They don't absorb the full energy of a turbolaser shot but rather keep it from impacting the hull, which requires significantly less energy".  What?  Of course they keep it from impacting the hull...by absorbing its energy.  What else would you expect them to do?  Or am I getting the Science wrong?

Also, Star Trek shields actually extend out more than Star Wars shields, yet are still less effective at stopping things. 

Also, Star Trek shields are NOT more effective than Star Wars shields at stopping radiation; they're actually less effective, as shown when their resistance to radiation was around 30 megatons.  In fact, a Star Wars civilian ship went within 3000 km of a neutron star without suffering significant damage; the Enterprise's commanders were reluctant to go within several million km's of a neutron star.
If they abosrbed the energy of a turbolaser shot, there wouldn't be a corresponding "boom" with each shot.

The radiation itself is another issue.  If I had to guess I'd say it's due simply because the shields have more available power.  Let's be clear on this:
The Reactor and the amount of fuel burnt by a Star Destroyer is massive compared to a Star Trek ship.  If a Star Trek ship used an equal amount of fuel, they'd be able to sit next to a Neutron star as well.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #414 on: November 12, 2010, 04:11:40 PM »
J.J.'s Star Trek is a blight on all that is Star Trek. Do not mention it again. It never happened.

Again, when was it explained that it was a different universe in the movie, as was claimed.

If I remember right they said it was different timeline in the same universe.

I'm pretty sure old Spock explained that he was from an alternate universe.
Young Spock does actually.  He talks about how the jump through time would have created an alternate timeline where the events of their lives would have been different.
Then Kirk tells him that there's no time wondering about what our lives would have been, they have to focus on now.



Alternate universe =/= alternate timeline
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

*

Wendy

  • 18492
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #415 on: November 13, 2010, 03:24:20 PM »
It actually does, since two parallel timelines exist simultaneously.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #416 on: November 13, 2010, 07:29:29 PM »
Using this:

In the episode "Rise" that I mentioned above, it was stated that Voyager could vaporize the nickel-iron asteroid seen in the episode.

So:

I'd estimate that the asteroid is anywhere from one quarter to one third the size of voyager, so around 100 meters across.

Vaporization energy: 7.5 megatons.

So we know that a photon torpedo has a yield of at least this. The Technical Manual give a figure of 64 megatons, which would vaporize an asteroid 200 meters across, but let's stick to 7.5 megatons for now.

The stardestroyer.net estimates that the asteroid in The Empire Strikes Back to be around 40 meters in diameter based on the size of the Millenium Falcon. I'm fine with that.

Vaporization energy: 479.1 kilotons.

So a turbolaser has at least a yield of this.

So, unless you can show a figure that justifies the 200 gigaton yield, I'm sticking with the theory that in terms of yield, a photon torpedo is probably about the same as a turbolaser. There's not much else I can get out of this.

To be clear, a 200 gigaton blast would vaporize an asteroid 3 kilometers across. That is a huge asteroid. So unless we get proof of this number, the facts show that in comparison, Star Wars might have slightly stronger weapons, but not by a long shot the 200 gigaton figure you claim.

Clearly, you completely ignored my post where I proved many of the figures you're asking for proof.  Of course, you completely ignored my post despite you and that other poster being the ones to request it.

Not to mention the fact that you fail to grasp that the 200 gigaton yield is CANON, and thus is true unless if you can find a contradiction with a higher source of canon, which you have yet to do.

Does the canon explain how the 200 gigaton turbo laser is cooled? 

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10061
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #417 on: November 14, 2010, 01:19:42 PM »
Scale pictures:




Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #418 on: November 15, 2010, 03:49:36 AM »
It actually does, since two parallel timelines exist simultaneously.

Evidence? It seems to me that you'd go back in time and simply change the outcome of your timeline.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

*

Wendy

  • 18492
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #419 on: November 15, 2010, 04:04:55 AM »
That is if you could somehow travel back to your own timeline. think about it, simply the act of travelling back in time would forever disconnect you from the timeline you come from, as you're from one potential future which could only happen without your interference. Spock comes from a potential future. this means that either there are multiple timelines or that when you come up to a specific moment in time, the waveform collapses, so to speak, and one of the potential timelines starts existing.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.