Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war

He could be referring to kilotons of TNT, which would be a unit of energy.

I may have missed this but who is fighting this war? Would it be one galaxy vs the other or just Empire vs Federation?

If the Borg were involved it would only take the assimilation of one small Star Destroyer to turn the war completely around

But yes, Force users would be another reason that Star Wars crushes Star Trek in a war, in addition to the HUGE tech gap.

Star Trek universe has far more powerful beings than Jedi and Sith.

Q has a soft spot for Picard. What if the nasty Emperor was picking on him? Q might just pop up and erase the Empire with a click of his fingers.

Quote from: RoundEarthGuy on October 26, 2010, 12:16:29 PM

But yes, Force users would be another reason that Star Wars crushes Star Trek in a war, in addition to the HUGE tech gap.

Star Trek universe has far more powerful beings than Jedi and Sith.

Q has a soft spot for Picard. What if the nasty Emperor was picking on him? Q might just pop up and erase the Empire with a click of his fingers.

or Q might snap his fingers and gie the empire a whole new battle fleet just for his amusement.

Quote from: RoundEarthGuy on October 26, 2010, 06:21:58 PM

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How much power is in a tie fighter's laser cannon?

That of a slave 1's laser cannon is 2 kt per shot, so a tie fighter's would probably be similar but a little smaller.

WTF kind of unit is a kt?

I'd guess a made up number that means it can vaporize mile sized asteroids.

Quote from: Lorddave on October 26, 2010, 01:55:44 PM

Just a few questions:
What is storm trooper armor made of?

Plastoid

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How much power is in a tie fighter's laser cannon?

That of a slave 1's laser cannon is 2 kt per shot, so a tie fighter's would probably be similar but a little smaller.

Quote

What is a droid made of?

Mostly durasteel.

So plastoid doesn't melt or get damaged from any hand blaster shot yet provides no protection to the wearer.  Ewoks with rocks and blasters are able to kill the person wearing said armor without any visible damage to the armor itself except some carbon scoring from blasters.

2 kt must not be very much since R2-D2 was shot with a tie fighter blast while Luke's shields were double front (indicating no aft shields) and a single shot aft destroys any X-wing.  Oddly enough, the droid was not destroyed.  Therefore I submit that Durasteel is either very weak in droids or the shot from a tie fighter is weaker than you'd have us believe and it simply hits a vital spot on the ship.


Oh and I realized something...

Blasters are repelled by strong magnetic fields.  A phaser is not.
Therefore, to defend against any and all hand blasters, a strong magnetic field is all you need.  I wonder why no one bothers to create one?

Sure; both don't follow Science all the time, but they still have a basis in Science and fundamental laws of physics (well, at least Star Wars does; it has yet to show a violation of those)

Listen, I love the Star Wars mythos, but it really isn't more or less realistic than the Star Trek mythos. In the first movie alone, there is FTL travel, telekinesis, plasma being held in place by a magnetic field which doesn't affect any metallic parts it comes near, and vehicles hovering in the air using subnuclear blobs of space-time itself mined from black holes!(?)

It doesn't matter who won betweeen Trek and Wars, the Dr Who universe would crush them both.

And the LOTR universe would destroy those three, with the DBZ universe killing off the LOTR universe. I'm not sure what would come next, though. the Gurren Lagann universe?

What happens when the Babylon 5 universe comes round the corner and wants to get a piece of the action. Them "first ones" are bang up for a fight I tell ya.

And the LOTR universe would destroy those three, with the DBZ universe killing off the LOTR universe. I'm not sure what would come next, though. the Gurren Lagann universe?

LOL you think a few orcs armed with pointy sticks could destroy the might of the Dalek Empire at its height? The magic users would just be defeated in their past by the Time Lords.

Borg vs. Daleks?

Difficult one. In a straight battle If the Borg adapted to the Dalek weapons I don't know whether they can rotate their frequencies and since Daleks are still biological it seems like they would fall victim to assimilation.

In a war, however, Daleks have the advantage of time travel, but so  do the Borg. The Daleks do have the experience of fighting (and nearly winning) a temporal war which would serve to their advantage (since the tactics are organised by a distant Emperor/Supreme Dalek, the tactics and knowledge wouldn't be easily assimilated.)

Seems to me it would be a tough one to call.

With all due respect, it can be extremely frustrating to debate with people ignorant on the subject.

@Those not knowing what KT is:

It's kilotons of TNT.  So no, Lorddave, I'm not making up numbers; it's simply that you have a disturbingly small knowledge of scientific terms and accuse people of making stuff up when you don't know them.

@Those talking about the borg and their awesomeness:

That's a no limits fallacy.  The borg won't be able to assimilate Star Wars technology because Star Wars technology is thousands of years beyond Star Trek technology.

@Those talking about the unrealism of Star Wars:

You clearly don't understand what FUNDAMENTAL science means.  The tech in Star Wars is far fetched, but gravity, friction, etc still exist in Star Wars.

@Lorddave:

Stop dodging the point.  The entire Federation would not be able to penetrate the shields of a single star destroyer in an entire day of firing. 

@Those spamming the thread:

Stop it.  It you're not interested in the thread, don't post in it.

With all due respect, it can be extremely frustrating to debate with people ignorant on the subject.

@Those not knowing what KT is:

It's kilotons of TNT.  So no, Lorddave, I'm not making up numbers; it's simply that you have a disturbingly small knowledge of scientific terms and accuse people of making stuff up when you don't know them.

@Those talking about the borg and their awesomeness:

That's a no limits fallacy.  The borg won't be able to assimilate Star Wars technology because Star Wars technology is thousands of years beyond Star Trek technology.

@Those talking about the unrealism of Star Wars:

You clearly don't understand what FUNDAMENTAL science means.  The tech in Star Wars is far fetched, but gravity, friction, etc still exist in Star Wars.

@Lorddave:

Stop dodging the point.  The entire Federation would not be able to penetrate the shields of a single star destroyer in an entire day of firing. 

@Those spamming the thread:

Stop it.  It you're not interested in the thread, don't post in it.

This is true, unless the Borg manage to assimilate an engineer who knows how the systems work.

This is true, unless the Borg manage to assimilate an engineer who knows how the systems work.

Problems:

1. They wouldn't be able to catch an engineer, something that would require them to either capture a planet or a Star Wars ship, both of which would be practically impossible
2. A single engineer would not necessarily know how to build Star Wars ships from scratch
3. Even if they learned how to build Star Wars ships, they wouldn't have the necessary materials such as hypermatter.
4. Even if they had the necessary materials, their industrial production is relatively low and by the time they managed to build one Star Wars would already have won.

This argument can be defeated easily.



This creature and its friends crushed the Empire.

This argument can be defeated easily.



This creature and its friends crushed the Empire.

Actually, the Federation would have fared even worse in that situation:

1. They wouldn't have had armor or helmets, so those giant rocks the Ewoks through would likely kill them or give them very bad concussion whereas they merely knocked down the stormtroopers.
2. Phasers would have a lower fire rate and less accuracy than blaster rifles.
3. The Federation wouldn't have a planetary shield, so the Rebels would simply bombard the base from space (actually, the entire situation wouldn't have happened since the Federation doesn't have the capability to build the Death Star)
4. The Federation wouldn't have any equivalent to the AT-ST to put up a fight.  The stormtroopers were actually winning until Chewbacca hijhacked that AT-ST.  It's clearly shown that the AT-STs were turning back the Ewoks, but the Federation wouldn't have those.

Even if the Federation never had a Death Star or a planetary shield, it still doesn't change the fact that a band of ewoks defeated "an entire legion of [the emperor's] best troops."

They shouldn't have had the incompetence to allow ewoks to take control of an AT-ST or take up such poor defensive positions. Really, they had range weapons, the ewoks had rocks. There are better tactis that could have taken place.

Even if the Federation never had a Death Star or a planetary shield, it still doesn't change the fact that a band of ewoks defeated "an entire legion of [the emperor's] best troops."

They shouldn't have had the incompetence to allow ewoks to take control of an AT-ST or take up such poor defensive positions. Really, they had range weapons, the ewoks had rocks. There are better tactis that could have taken place.

Not only does this not really matter (for one, such a war would not be fought on the ground that much, and two, even if the Federation had better tactics, which is false, tactics will not let you defeat a galactic force thousands of years ahead of you), but you ignored the substance of my post.

That is, that the Federation would have fared WORSE than any major Star Wars faction.

@Those talking about the borg and their awesomeness:

That's a no limits fallacy.  The borg won't be able to assimilate Star Wars technology because Star Wars technology is thousands of years beyond Star Trek technology.

Okay, two points with this: First, there's no such thing as a no limits fallacy here. We're discussing fictional worlds. The only limit is the imagination of the writers. The borg would  be able to assimilate a star destroyer simply by adjusting to the frequency of it's shield and boarding it like a pack of space buccaneers. Second, how is Wars tech thousands of years beyond Trek tech? From where the rest of reality stands, it's pretty clear that they are about equivalent.

@Those talking about the unrealism of Star Wars:

You clearly don't understand what FUNDAMENTAL science means.  The tech in Star Wars is far fetched, but gravity, friction, etc still exist in Star Wars.

Oh, so gravity and friction don't exist in the trek universe?

less accuracy than blaster rifles.

LOL

Even the Star Wars Wiki is aware of the 'Stormtrooper Effect'

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_effect

Oh RoundEarthGuy, your devotion to Star Wars truely is epic.  I haven't seen such arrogance in a long time.

To think that Star Wars tech is more advanced than the Borg could assimilate is laughable.  There is no limit to what they can assimilate except one organic species.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated a 29th century holoemitter and created an advanced Borg Drone.

As for the battle of Endor, the problem is rather simple: Transporters.

Here is how it would go...


Sisko: Captain's log Stardate 30163.2.  The Defiant is currently cloaked in orbit around the forest moon of Endor.  The Death Star sits by.  Long range sensors detect a fleet of Star Destroyers holding position nearby.  Our orders are to neutralize the shields around the Death Star.

Sisko: Dax, analysis.

Dax: The Shield emitter is located on a continent near the equator of the moon.  I'm reading 500 human life signs as well as several thousand Ewoks.  The Sheild emitter seems to be housed inside a large, underground bunker.  

Sisko: Can we beam in?

O'Brien: I'm afraid not.  The power generator is giving off too much interference.

Sisko: Very well.  Prepare to beam up all storm troopers and beam them into space.

O'Brien: Yes sir.  With transporters at maximum, it will take about 10 minutes.

Sisko: How soon can we expect reinforcements?

Worf: At the speed of their ships, it would take approximately 30 minutes for a strike force to land on the planet from the Death Star.

Sisko: Alright chief, we don't have much time then.  Initiate transport.

O'Brien: Aye sir.  This should take only a few minutes.

Sisko: Mr. Worf, prepare an away team.

*Storm troopers beam up from Endor, leaving the entire outside of the bunker unguarded.  Dax, O'Brien, Worf, and several security teams approach the door.  Chief O'Brien scans the door and lock with his tricorder*

O'Brien:  It looks like a simple lock system using a magnetic seal and primitive wire locks.  
*O'Brien taps his tricorder, finding the correct circuit that opens the door and activates it.  Worf and his security throw in several photon granades and storm the bunker with phaser rifles, taking the guards by surprise.  They then set the generator to overload and beam out*

Pretty easy.

Also...

WTF is this about Star Trek phasers being less accurate than a blaster?  I seem to recall at least a dozen storm troopers chasing Han Solo down a straight hallway and NEVER HITTING HIM!  
Plus, phasers are point accurate.  No recoil, no movement of the beam, ect...

One element we've all forgotten is the power of Narrative. It doesn't matter how powerful each side is, only whether they're 'good' or 'evil'

If it was the Empire vs the Federation, the fed would win simply because the SW and ST narrative says that 'the good guys must win.

Similarly the rebels would win against the Borg.

In a battle between to evil factions (say the Borg and the Empire)  it matters only who has the most sympathetic characters. The Empire would win because Narrative would fashion them into anti-heros against the faceless menace of The Borg

In a battle between to evil factions (say the Borg and the Empire)  it matters only who has the most sympathetic characters. The Empire would win because Narrative would fashion them into anti-heros against the faceless menace of The Borg

Not necessarily. The borg could win, but only to demonstrate their strength as main villains in a cross-over.

As long as Jadzia and Leia get it on in at least 3 scenes I don't care who wins.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on October 28, 2010, 03:18:02 AM

In a battle between to evil factions (say the Borg and the Empire)  it matters only who has the most sympathetic characters. The Empire would win because Narrative would fashion them into anti-heros against the faceless menace of The Borg

Not necessarily. The borg could win, but only to demonstrate their strength as main villains in a cross-over.

Good point but if it was a closed story the Empire would win

As long as Jadzia and Leia get it on in at least 3 scenes I don't care who wins.

Ezri and Leia, surely?

One element we've all forgotten is the power of Narrative. It doesn't matter how powerful each side is, only whether they're 'good' or 'evil'

If it was the Empire vs the Federation, the fed would win simply because the SW and ST narrative says that 'the good guys must win.

Similarly the rebels would win against the Borg.

In a battle between to evil factions (say the Borg and the Empire)  it matters only who has the most sympathetic characters. The Empire would win because Narrative would fashion them into anti-heros against the faceless menace of The Borg

Best argument for a fictional universe.

Stormtroopers: Fire on the Trekkies!

*PEW PEW PEW*

Stormtroopers: WTF?! We're not hitting them! DAMN THESE BLASTERS!

What happens when the Babylon 5 universe comes round the corner and wants to get a piece of the action. Them "first ones" are bang up for a fight I tell ya.

What about the Robotech universe?  Reflex cannons, Veretech fighters, and lets not forget the Zentradi.  Ground armies would be completely useless since they are 50 foot tall humanoids.  Also, enourmous fleets of battle cruisers, Zentradi had millions of them, but even after that you have the Robotech Masters, and the Invid to deal with.

Mix in the Elder Gods of the Cthulu 'verse, and you've got yourself a party.

Mix in the Greater Commonwealth from Peter F. Hamilton's Void trilogy and they're all going home in a big ambulance.

Star killing missiles, artificial black holes as weapons, a detterent fleet capable of taking down over 1,800 enemy ships in a few seconds, the ability to seal entire star systems inside an impenetrable forcefield and ships capable of intergalactic travel.

This is before we consider the humans who have started to go post-physical.