Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2010, 10:26:59 AM »

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2010, 12:20:11 PM »
@Those talking about the borg and their awesomeness:

That's a no limits fallacy.  The borg won't be able to assimilate Star Wars technology because Star Wars technology is thousands of years beyond Star Trek technology.

Okay, two points with this: First, there's no such thing as a no limits fallacy here. We're discussing fictional worlds. The only limit is the imagination of the writers. The borg would  be able to assimilate a star destroyer simply by adjusting to the frequency of it's shield and boarding it like a pack of space buccaneers. Second, how is Wars tech thousands of years beyond Trek tech? From where the rest of reality stands, it's pretty clear that they are about equivalent.


Prove that Star Wars shields also use frequencies.

Got you, didn't I?

"fairly clear that they are about equivalent" - more utter bullshit.  I was trying to be polite, but clearly you didn't even bother to read the OP.  It would take the Enterprise OVER 1 BILLION PHOTON TORPEDOS to get past the shields of a star destroyer.  Basically, a guy with a stick would have a better chance against a modern battle tank than the Enterprise would have against a star destroyer.

Also, Star Wars power generation (one of the main factors used by theoretical scientists to measure technology level) is over one thousand times more powerful than Star Trek power generation.  A star destroyer has a power generation of over 1 quadrillion gigawatts, more than enough to power the entire world for over 100 billion years.


@Those talking about the unrealism of Star Wars:

You clearly don't understand what FUNDAMENTAL science means.  The tech in Star Wars is far fetched, but gravity, friction, etc still exist in Star Wars.

Oh, so gravity and friction don't exist in the trek universe?
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Bullshit.  Where did I ever claim that?  Stop using strawmans and start actually debating.  If anything, I actually implied that gravity and friction DO exist in both Star Wars and Star Trek. 

With all due respect, you're using logical fallacies in your arguments to a fightening extent.  For one, you assume and provide no proof that Star Wars shields use frequencies.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 12:44:36 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2010, 12:25:23 PM »
Oh RoundEarthGuy, your devotion to Star Wars truely is epic.  I haven't seen such arrogance in a long time.

And I haven't seen such ignorance in a long time.  You clearly have no knowledge of Star Wars and yet try to argue against it.

Hint: if you're going to participate in a debate, make sure you actually know about the topics you're talking about.  This might seem to be sarcastic, but it isn't.  It's frustrating when somebody who has no idea what they're talking about pretends that they do.

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To think that Star Wars tech is more advanced than the Borg could assimilate is laughable.  There is no limit to what they can assimilate except one organic species.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated a 29th century holoemitter and created an advanced Borg Drone.


A statement which has no substance, since you need to PROVE that there is no limit to what they can assimilate.  PROVE IT.

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As for the battle of Endor, the problem is rather simple: Transporters.


Which can be disrupted.

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Here is how it would go...


Sisko: Captain's log Stardate 30163.2.  The Defiant is currently cloaked in orbit around the forest moon of Endor.  The Death Star sits by.  Long range sensors detect a fleet of Star Destroyers holding position nearby.  Our orders are to neutralize the shields around the Death Star.


Problem: this wouldn't even happen.  The Federation's warp drives wouldn't be fast enough or sustainable enough to reach Endor.  The Enterprise's warp drive had enough fuel for about 3000 light years.  They'd never get to Endor, nor would they ever find it.  Therefore, your scenario fails.

Not to mention this: how would you stop, Centerpoint Station?
 
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Sisko: Dax, analysis.

Dax: The Shield emitter is located on a continent near the equator of the moon.  I'm reading 500 human life signs as well as several thousand Ewoks.  The Sheild emitter seems to be housed inside a large, underground bunker.  


Problem; you're ignoring the huge star destroyer fleet and the Death Star.

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Sisko: Can we beam in?

O'Brien: I'm afraid not.  The power generator is giving off too much interference.


Yep.

Oh, and by the time they're saying this, they would be dead.  Star destroyers were shown to be able to hit targets from light minutes away and had long range sensors that could detect gravity distortions (hence rendering the defiance's cloaking field useless; note that Star Wars also has cloaking fields).  A 200 gigaton turbolaser would one shot the Enterprise (which couldn't withstand flying debris).

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Sisko: Very well.  Prepare to beam up all storm troopers and beam them into space.

O'Brien: Yes sir.  With transporters at maximum, it will take about 10 minutes.


So you can't beam the Trekkie dudes down through the shield but you can the stormtroopers beam stuff up?  Bullshit.

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Sisko: How soon can we expect reinforcements?

Worf: At the speed of their ships, it would take approximately 30 minutes for a strike force to land on the planet from the Death Star.


Bullshit, Star Wars ships are several orders of magnitude faster than Star Trek ships.

The Death Star traveled at 50% the speed of light in sublight speed.  I'm not kidding.

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Sisko: Alright chief, we don't have much time then.  Initiate transport.

O'Brien: Aye sir.  This should take only a few minutes.


No, because the planetary shield would stop the transporters, AS YOU YOURSELF SAID.

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Sisko: Mr. Worf, prepare an away team.

*Storm troopers beam up from Endor, leaving the entire outside of the bunker unguarded.  Dax, O'Brien, Worf, and several security teams approach the door.  Chief O'Brien scans the door and lock with his tricorder*


Problem; the Star Trek ships would get blasted apart by the Death Star and its accompanying fleet.

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O'Brien:  It looks like a simple lock system using a magnetic seal and primitive wire locks.  

More common misconceptions by Trekkies.  Star Wars blast doors were so durable that Qui Gon had to spend a lot of effort with a lightsaber to get past one.

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*O'Brien taps his tricorder, finding the correct circuit that opens the door and activates it.  Worf and his security throw in several photon granades and storm the bunker with phaser rifles, taking the guards by surprise.  They then set the generator to overload and beam out*

Pretty easy.


More bullshit.  How do they get past the star destroyers with 200 gigaton turbolasers when the Enterprise's shields get damaged by flying debris?

Also, EVEN IF THEY ACCOMPLISHED THIS, it would be IRREVELANT?  Why?  Because in order to destroy the Death Star, the Rebels needed small sized starfighter craft to enter the Death Star.  The Federation has very few of these, and none that can make the tens of thousands of G turns that would be needed to navigate the Death Star.  Nor would they have ships powerful enough to even scratch a star destroyer (which I proved in my OP, and you didn't seem to read) and therefore would not be able to distract the defending fleet.  

And even if they did destroy the Death Star (which is beyond impossible) the Federation would still have to deal with the rest of the star destroyers.

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Also...

WTF is this about Star Trek phasers being less accurate than a blaster?  I seem to recall at least a dozen storm troopers chasing Han Solo down a straight hallway and NEVER HITTING HIM!  
Plus, phasers are point accurate.  No recoil, no movement of the beam, ect...

That has to do with the poor accuracy of the stormtroopers (note that stormtroopers aren't the only forces in Star Wars, so there are still clone troopers and such), not the blasters themselves, which were moving in a straight line.

Phasers rarely have iron sights or even trigger guards.

Also, explain how Star Trek counters:

Centerpoint Station
Galaxy Gun
Stealth X's
Jedi/other Force users
Star destroyers
Starfighters
Planetary shields
100 quadrillion civilians
Dorvin Basils
Phase shifters
The Celestials
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 12:45:35 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2010, 12:26:36 PM »

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Lorddave

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2010, 02:04:16 PM »
Oh RoundEarthGuy, your devotion to Star Wars truely is epic.  I haven't seen such arrogance in a long time.

And I haven't seen such ignorance in a long time.  You clearly have no knowledge of Star Wars and yet try to argue against it.

Hint: if you're going to participate in a debate, make sure you actually know about the topics you're talking about.  This might seem to be sarcastic, but it isn't.  It's frustrating when somebody who has no idea what they're talking about pretends that they do.
Indeed.  You should take your own advice.

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To think that Star Wars tech is more advanced than the Borg could assimilate is laughable.  There is no limit to what they can assimilate except one organic species.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated a 29th century holoemitter and created an advanced Borg Drone.


A statement which has no substance, since you need to PROVE that there is no limit to what they can assimilate.  PROVE IT.
I did.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated 29th century Federation technology without a problem.
But if you insist...
Borg insert their nano-probes into a piece of technology.  The nanoprobes then use the surrounding material to replicate (Yes they can eat molecules of Durasteel) and spread, eventually taking control over the computer system.  They're self sufficient so even one nanoprobe can assimilate a human, creating Borg devices within the human body and overtaking the nervous system and brain.  The only thing that might slow them down is all the copper wires found in Star Wars Tech, which doesn't have the speed, data bandwidth, or power rating required to run most things in a Star Wars universe.

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Here is how it would go...
Sisko: Captain's log Stardate 30163.2.  The Defiant is currently cloaked in orbit around the forest moon of Endor.  The Death Star sits by.  Long range sensors detect a fleet of Star Destroyers holding position nearby.  Our orders are to neutralize the shields around the Death Star.

Problem: this wouldn't even happen.  The Federation's warp drives wouldn't be fast enough or sustainable enough to reach Endor.  The Enterprise's warp drive had enough fuel for about 3000 light years.  They'd never get to Endor, nor would they ever find it.  Therefore, your scenario fails.

Not to mention this: how would you stop, Centerpoint Station?
How would they get to the other Universe in the first place?  This is a fictional battle.

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Sisko: Dax, analysis.

Dax: The Shield emitter is located on a continent near the equator of the moon.  I'm reading 500 human life signs as well as several thousand Ewoks.  The Sheild emitter seems to be housed inside a large, underground bunker.  

Problem; you're ignoring the huge star destroyer fleet and the Death Star.
No I'm not.  That's what a cloaking device is.

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Sisko: Can we beam in?
O'Brien: I'm afraid not.  The power generator is giving off too much interference.
Yep.


Oh, and by the time they're saying this, they would be dead.  Star destroyers were shown to be able to hit targets from light minutes away and had long range sensors that could detect gravity distortions (hence rendering the defiance's cloaking field useless; note that Star Wars also has cloaking fields).  A 200 gigaton turbolaser would one shot the Enterprise (which couldn't withstand flying debris).
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Yes because a cloaking device wouldn't EVER hide gravity distortions...  ::)
It's a cloaking device.  It hides all energy and gravity distortions.  That's what it does.  And since when can star destoryers shoot light minutes away?  Do you even KNOW how far a light minute is?  By your argument, Two ships NEVER have to be near each other to destroy each other.  Since that has NEVER been the case as seen on any of the movies, your argument is epic fail.
Not only that but unless a turbolaser moves faster than the speed of light (Bet you're going to claim it does), moving out of the way is trivial.

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Sisko: Very well.  Prepare to beam up all storm troopers and beam them into space.

O'Brien: Yes sir.  With transporters at maximum, it will take about 10 minutes.


So you can't beam the Trekkie dudes down through the shield but you can the stormtroopers beam stuff up?  Bullshit.
Shield?  I didn't say that.  I said they can't beam into the shield generator bunker.  You know the building the Rebels blew up in Return of the Jedi?  That building.  Can't beam inside.  Outside?  Sure.  The energy from the power generator is safely contained within the bunker so anything outside is safe to beam up.

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Sisko: How soon can we expect reinforcements?

Worf: At the speed of their ships, it would take approximately 30 minutes for a strike force to land on the planet from the Death Star.


Bullshit, Star Wars ships are several orders of magnitude faster than Star Trek ships.

The Death Star traveled at 50% the speed of light in sublight speed.  I'm not kidding.
Yes because shuttles usually fly into the atmosphere of a planet at 50% the speed of light...  ::)

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Sisko: Alright chief, we don't have much time then.  Initiate transport.

O'Brien: Aye sir.  This should take only a few minutes.


No, because the planetary shield would stop the transporters, AS YOU YOURSELF SAID.
You mean the planetary shields that allow physical objects to pass through them?  Yes I can see those as being VERY effective at stopping a matter stream...  ::)
Or are you going to claim that Endor was completely covered by a shield?


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Sisko: Mr. Worf, prepare an away team.

*Storm troopers beam up from Endor, leaving the entire outside of the bunker unguarded.  Dax, O'Brien, Worf, and several security teams approach the door.  Chief O'Brien scans the door and lock with his tricorder*

Problem; the Star Trek ships would get blasted apart by the Death Star and its accompanying fleet.
[/quote]
What part of Cloaking Device did you not understand?  Even Star Wars has them so they must be effective.


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O'Brien:  It looks like a simple lock system using a magnetic seal and primitive wire locks.  
More common misconceptions by Trekkies.  Star Wars blast doors were so durable that Qui Gon had to spend a lot of effort with a lightsaber to get past one.
[/quote]
You're reading comprehension is epic.  I never said anything about the durability of the door.  I was talking about how it opens and locks. 

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*O'Brien taps his tricorder, finding the correct circuit that opens the door and activates it.  Worf and his security throw in several photon granades and storm the bunker with phaser rifles, taking the guards by surprise.  They then set the generator to overload and beam out*

Pretty easy.


More bullshit.  How do they get past the star destroyers with 200 gigaton turbolasers when the Enterprise's shields get damaged by flying debris?
....
A Star Destroyer get's destroyed when a single fighter flies through the bridge.  Also, they are unable to withstand asteroids.  (Hence why they were shooting them in Empire Strikes Back)  If the shields were as powerful as you say, they should be able to fly through the asteroid field at full speed without any damage.

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Also, EVEN IF THEY ACCOMPLISHED THIS, it would be IRREVELANT?  Why?  Because in order to destroy the Death Star, the Rebels needed small sized starfighter craft to enter the Death Star.  The Federation has very few of these, and none that can make the tens of thousands of G turns that would be needed to navigate the Death Star.  Nor would they have ships powerful enough to even scratch a star destroyer (which I proved in my OP, and you didn't seem to read) and therefore would not be able to distract the defending fleet.  

And even if they did destroy the Death Star (which is beyond impossible) the Federation would still have to deal with the rest of the star destroyers.
Who said they were going to do it?
And why would they bother?
Transporter + Explosives = Boom.

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Also...

WTF is this about Star Trek phasers being less accurate than a blaster?  I seem to recall at least a dozen storm troopers chasing Han Solo down a straight hallway and NEVER HITTING HIM!  
Plus, phasers are point accurate.  No recoil, no movement of the beam, ect...

That has to do with the poor accuracy of the stormtroopers (note that stormtroopers aren't the only forces in Star Wars, so there are still clone troopers and such), not the blasters themselves, which were moving in a straight line.

Phasers rarely have iron sights or even trigger guards.
Yeah... hand phasers don't but phaser rifles (you know, the ones they take to battle) do.  You only use hand phasers for personal defense, never an assault.

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Also, explain how Star Trek counters:

Centerpoint Station
Galaxy Gun
Stealth X's
Jedi/other Force users
Star destroyers
Starfighters
Planetary shields
100 quadrillion civilians
Dorvin Basils
Phase shifters
The Celestials
Why?  It's not like you have any real argument of substance.  You're entire basis is on bigger numbers.  That's it.  That's your whole argument.  Star Destroyer Shields have no frequencies, no concept of even how they work, and the turbo lasers are the same.  Not only that but a Star Destroyer's docking bay is shielded from air but not ships which means a transporter beam could penetrate it. 


First you should explain the principal behind Sheilds in Star Wars.
Then explain the principal of Trubolasers.

THEN I'll kick your ass with technobabble.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2010, 02:14:10 PM »
A bit on the cloaking device:

The Millenium Falcon hides in the garbage of a star destroyer. Before, the Imperial officers have a discussion:

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"Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scopes."

"They can't have disappeared. No ship that small has a cloaking device."

So obviously star destroyer's still can't detect cloaked ships. They can't even detect a small ship on the hull.


Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2010, 02:42:36 PM »

Indeed.  You should take your own advice.


That's not a substantive response.



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I did.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated 29th century Federation technology without a problem.

That's not proof, because you haven't proven that 29th century Federation > Star Wars.

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But if you insist...
Borg insert their nano-probes into a piece of technology.  The nanoprobes then use the surrounding material to replicate (Yes they can eat molecules of Durasteel) and spread, eventually taking control over the computer system.  They're self sufficient so even one nanoprobe can assimilate a human, creating Borg devices within the human body and overtaking the nervous system and brain.  The only thing that might slow them down is all the copper wires found in Star Wars Tech, which doesn't have the speed, data bandwidth, or power rating required to run most things in a Star Wars universe.

Because obviously Star Wars wouldn't have, say computer defense systems?

Not to mention that:

1. the borg cube would have to get within range to do such a thing
2. probes would have to go through the shields
3. nano-technology is indeed in Star Wars, and they'd thus have defenses against that
4. how does this help them?  if they somehow succeed, they get one star destroyer that would take years to reverse engineer, and then have to take on the entire Star Wars galaxy.



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How would they get to the other Universe in the first place?  This is a fictional battle.

How about this: the two galaxies are placed side by side, with a suspension of disbelief discounting the huge gravitational problems that would cause.  Fair?


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No I'm not.  That's what a cloaking device is.

Which Star Wars has methods to detect.

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Yes because a cloaking device wouldn't EVER hide gravity distortions...  ::)

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Prove that they do.
It's a cloaking device.  It hides all energy and gravity distortions.  That's what it does.  And since when can star destoryers shoot light minutes away?  Do you even KNOW how far a light minute is?  By your argument, Two ships NEVER have to be near each other to destroy each other.  Since that has NEVER been the case as seen on any of the movies, your argument is epic fail.
Not only that but unless a turbolaser moves faster than the speed of light (Bet you're going to claim it does), moving out of the way is trivial.

Also, it's true that ships could likely move out of the way.  However, star destroyer have a pretty fast rate of fire and a lot of turbolasers.  All it takes it ONE hit and the Defiant is history.

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Shield?  I didn't say that.  I said they can't beam into the shield generator bunker.  You know the building the Rebels blew up in Return of the Jedi?  That building.  Can't beam inside.  Outside?  Sure.  The energy from the power generator is safely contained within the bunker so anything outside is safe to beam up.


The planetary shield would still disrupt the transporters.

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Yes because shuttles usually fly into the atmosphere of a planet at 50% the speed of light...  ::)


Oh, in atmosphere?  Do you expect a space age shuttle to take 30 minutes to land?

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You mean the planetary shields that allow physical objects to pass through them?  Yes I can see those as being VERY effective at stopping a matter stream...  ::)
Or are you going to claim that Endor was completely covered by a shield?

Actually, they had to trick the imperials into lowering the shield.

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What part of Cloaking Device did you not understand?  Even Star Wars has them so they must be effective.


Ok, so let's assume without any evidence that the cloaks hide gravity distortions.  After that, how do they get away?  I doubt that the Defiant can use cloaking tech while going warp, so Star Wars ships would detect the Defiant with its sensors.  Star Wars hyperdrive it at least 1000 times faster than warp drive based on footage evidence; therefore, the Defiant would be hunted down.


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You're reading comprehension is epic.  I never said anything about the durability of the door.  I was talking about how it opens and locks.  

Jedi have been shown to be able to open locks.  Therefore, the blast doors would have to have been electronically opened, which destroys your stance.

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....
A Star Destroyer get's destroyed when a single fighter flies through the bridge.  Also, they are unable to withstand asteroids.  (Hence why they were shooting them in Empire Strikes Back)  If the shields were as powerful as you say, they should be able to fly through the asteroid field at full speed without any damage.

Watch more carefully.  The A wing flew into the Executor RIGHT AFTER its shields were specifically stated and shown to have been destroyed.


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Who said they were going to do it?
And why would they bother?
Transporter + Explosives = Boom.


So they're going to beam onto every star destroyer, somehow sneak past the guards and get enough explosives to blow the thing up and do it to them all without raising an alarm?



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Yeah... hand phasers don't but phaser rifles (you know, the ones they take to battle) do.  You only use hand phasers for personal defense, never an assault.

The thing is that the Federation dudes typically use hand phasers, and phaser rifles are actually weaker than hand phasers, such negating their main advantage over blasters.

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Why?  It's not like you have any real argument of substance.

Don't dodge the argument.  Counter my points.  If you don't think that they have substance, it should be easy for you to tear apart my arguments and win the debate (but obviously it isn't, hence why you're dodging the point).

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 You're entire basis is on bigger numbers.  That's it.  That's your whole argument.  

No it isn't, but even if it was, like it or not but numbers do matter.  A 200 megaton bomb is more powerful than a 1 megaton bomb.  Mach 2 jet fighters are far more powerful than <mach 1 bi planes.

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Star Destroyer Shields have no frequencies,

So?

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no concept of even how they work,

???  Are you suggesting that they make shields without knowing how to make them?

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and the turbo lasers are the same.

???

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Not only that but a Star Destroyer's docking bay is shielded from air but not ships which means a transporter beam could penetrate it.  

You have proof of this, right?

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First you should explain the principal behind Sheilds in Star Wars.


It's not known TO US, but does that really matter?  If you want though, here's a link with educated speculation:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Nature.html

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Then explain the principal of Trubolasers.

Some sort of really powerful plasma.

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THEN I'll kick your ass with technobabble.
[/quote]

First counter my long list of Star Wars technologies which you cleverly dodged, and counter it with real Science and logic (not technobabble).

Let me ask you a question:

You still haven't explained how destroying the shield generator would matter because the Defiant would not be able to take out the Death Star.  The Federation would need:

1. A large number starfighters capable of making >10,000 g turns
2. Very good pilots
3. Ships capable of holding off the imperial fleet
4. Technical data on the Death Star

Problems:

1. Star Trek starfighters and both rare and inferior to Star Wars starfighters
2. Maybe, maybe not.
3. As I have shown, the Enterprise would have to fire over 2 billion times to damage a star destroyer.
4. The Federation doesn't have that.  They can't steal the plans because they have no idea where the Death Star is and their warp drives wouldn't be able to reach it.  Even if they did have it, placing a fleet near the battlefield would be a giveaway.  They'd have to keep the fleet out of Star Wars sensor range (which is pretty far) and then jump in, but warp drive is too slow for this because it would be weeks before they can get there, by which case Star Wars could have reinforced the battlesite or simply have left it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 02:53:40 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2010, 03:59:47 PM »
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I did.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated 29th century Federation technology without a problem.

That's not proof, because you haven't proven that 29th century Federation > Star Wars.

It's proof that the Borg can assimilate technology far beyond their own technology. True, it says nothing about Star Wars technology, but if 24th century Borg can assimilate 29th century Star Trek technology, it seems that the Borg are quite capable of assimilating technology far more advanced than their own.


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But if you insist...
Borg insert their nano-probes into a piece of technology.  The nanoprobes then use the surrounding material to replicate (Yes they can eat molecules of Durasteel) and spread, eventually taking control over the computer system.  They're self sufficient so even one nanoprobe can assimilate a human, creating Borg devices within the human body and overtaking the nervous system and brain.  The only thing that might slow them down is all the copper wires found in Star Wars Tech, which doesn't have the speed, data bandwidth, or power rating required to run most things in a Star Wars universe.

Because obviously Star Wars wouldn't have, say computer defense systems?

Not to mention that:

1. the borg cube would have to get within range to do such a thing
2. probes would have to go through the shields
3. nano-technology is indeed in Star Wars, and they'd thus have defenses against that
4. how does this help them?  if they somehow succeed, they get one star destroyer that would take years to reverse engineer, and then have to take on the entire Star Wars galaxy.

Except that even if the Borg assimilate one general or ship or something, they take with them the information that that person/ship knew, including, if they get someone high up enough, the information regarding the Empire's defensive systems.


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No I'm not.  That's what a cloaking device is.

Which Star Wars has methods to detect.

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"Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scopes."

"They can't have disappeared. No ship that small has a cloaking device."

Apparently no, they can't detect cloaked ships, else when the ship "disappeared", Captain Needa wouldn't have immediately assumed a cloaking device.


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Shield?  I didn't say that.  I said they can't beam into the shield generator bunker.  You know the building the Rebels blew up in Return of the Jedi?  That building.  Can't beam inside.  Outside?  Sure.  The energy from the power generator is safely contained within the bunker so anything outside is safe to beam up.

The planetary shield would still disrupt the transporters.

The shield would disrupt what it's protecting, aka the Death Star, not the planet.


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You mean the planetary shields that allow physical objects to pass through them?  Yes I can see those as being VERY effective at stopping a matter stream...  ::)
Or are you going to claim that Endor was completely covered by a shield?

Actually, they had to trick the imperials into lowering the shield.

They tricked them into lowering the shield so that they could approach the planet by conventional means. They weren't about to fly over to the other side of the planet and walk around just hunky dory waiting to be captured. The whole point of stealing the shuttle was to trick the Empire into thinking they were Imperial personell.

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What part of Cloaking Device did you not understand?  Even Star Wars has them so they must be effective.

Ok, so let's assume without any evidence that the cloaks hide gravity distortions.  After that, how do they get away?  I doubt that the Defiant can use cloaking tech while going warp, so Star Wars ships would detect the Defiant with its sensors.  Star Wars hyperdrive it at least 1000 times faster than warp drive based on footage evidence; therefore, the Defiant would be hunted down.

Actually, the Defiant can use the cloak at warp.


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You're reading comprehension is epic.  I never said anything about the durability of the door.  I was talking about how it opens and locks.  

Jedi have been shown to be able to open locks.  Therefore, the blast doors would have to have been electronically opened, which destroys your stance.

O'Brien has a magic tricorder to open the lock. Duh.

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....
A Star Destroyer get's destroyed when a single fighter flies through the bridge.  Also, they are unable to withstand asteroids.  (Hence why they were shooting them in Empire Strikes Back)  If the shields were as powerful as you say, they should be able to fly through the asteroid field at full speed without any damage.

Watch more carefully.  The A wing flew into the Executor RIGHT AFTER its shields were specifically stated and shown to have been destroyed.

The X-wings in A New Hope also flew straight past the Death Star's magnetic field.

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"We're passing through their magnetic field. Hold tight! Switch your deflectors on. Double front!"


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Yeah... hand phasers don't but phaser rifles (you know, the ones they take to battle) do.  You only use hand phasers for personal defense, never an assault.

The thing is that the Federation dudes typically use hand phasers, and phaser rifles are actually weaker than hand phasers, such negating their main advantage over blasters.

Yes, and navy personell don't usually cary around machine guns everywhere they go. But they still have machine guns.




1. A large number starfighters capable of making >10,000 g turns

lolwut?


1. Star Trek starfighters and both rare and inferior to Star Wars starfighters

These were seen all the time in the Dominion War.


Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2010, 04:25:18 PM »


It's proof that the Borg can assimilate technology far beyond their own technology. True, it says nothing about Star Wars technology, but if 24th century Borg can assimilate 29th century Star Trek technology, it seems that the Borg are quite capable of assimilating technology far more advanced than their own.


1. Proof that 29th century Federation tech > borg tech?
2. That's a no limits fallacy.  "far more advanced than their own" has varying levels of "far more advanced"

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Except that even if the Borg assimilate one general or ship or something, they take with them the information that that person/ship knew, including, if they get someone high up enough, the information regarding the Empire's defensive systems.


Ah, but that merely answers point 4.

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"Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scopes."

"They can't have disappeared. No ship that small has a cloaking device."

Apparently no, they can't detect cloaked ships, else when the ship "disappeared", Captain Needa wouldn't have immediately assumed a cloaking device.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Sensors/Sensor2.html

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The shield would disrupt what it's protecting, aka the Death Star, not the planet.


But didn't Endor also have a shield?  It did indeed have a shield protecting it.

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They tricked them into lowering the shield so that they could approach the planet by conventional means. They weren't about to fly over to the other side of the planet and walk around just hunky dory waiting to be captured. The whole point of stealing the shuttle was to trick the Empire into thinking they were Imperial personell.


How does this disprove my point?  It actually supports my point.

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Actually, the Defiant can use the cloak at warp.


Proof?

And the back up fleet that would be needed would not have cloaking fields.
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O'Brien has a magic tricorder to open the lock. Duh.


???

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The X-wings in A New Hope also flew straight past the Death Star's magnetic field.


Magnetic field?  What?

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Yes, and navy personell don't usually cary around machine guns everywhere they go. But they still have machine guns.




Which have not been shown to have any real advantages over blaster rifles.

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lolwut?


The Death Star's interior had a ridiculous amount of tight turns.

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These were seen all the time in the Dominion War.



Ah, but were they shown to be able to outfly tie fighters, make it through the Death Star and blow it up?  

A question that still hasn't been answered:

so what if the Federation can destroy the shield generator (which hasn't been proven)?  They can't destroy the Death Star, and there's more than the Death Star for Star Wars, and more than the Empire for Star Wars.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 04:27:08 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2010, 04:42:37 PM »
It's proof that the Borg can assimilate technology far beyond their own technology. True, it says nothing about Star Wars technology, but if 24th century Borg can assimilate 29th century Star Trek technology, it seems that the Borg are quite capable of assimilating technology far more advanced than their own.

1. Proof that 29th century Federation tech > borg tech?
2. That's a no limits fallacy.  "far more advanced than their own" has varying levels of "far more advanced"

Okay, proof that Star Wars tech > 29th century Trek tech? I'm not saying that Star Wars isn't less advanced than 29th century Trek tech, I'm just saying that we can't outright say the Borg can't assimilate the Empire when we have no idea of their limits. It supports the claim that they would be able to if they could assimilate technology from 500 years in the future.


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"Captain Needa, the ship no longer appears on our scopes."

"They can't have disappeared. No ship that small has a cloaking device."

Apparently no, they can't detect cloaked ships, else when the ship "disappeared", Captain Needa wouldn't have immediately assumed a cloaking device.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Sensors/Sensor2.html

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Unlike the Federation, we can detect cloaked ships, as seen in the Zahn trilogy.

WTF is the Zahn trilogy? I know books are a part of Star Wars cannon, but for the sake of argument, we'll stick with the movies, shall we? I mean, ANYONE can write a book. Only George Lucas can write the movies.


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The shield would disrupt what it's protecting, aka the Death Star, not the planet.


But didn't Endor also have a shield?  It did indeed have a shield protecting it.



Nope.


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They tricked them into lowering the shield so that they could approach the planet by conventional means. They weren't about to fly over to the other side of the planet and walk around just hunky dory waiting to be captured. The whole point of stealing the shuttle was to trick the Empire into thinking they were Imperial personell.


How does this disprove my point?  It actually supports my point.

I'm saying why they went through the shield rather than assault the planet. The Imperial ships went through the shield because unless you want to travel along the surface of the whole planet, you sort of have to.

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Actually, the Defiant can use the cloak at warp.

Proof?

And the back up fleet that would be needed would not have cloaking fields.

#t=0m30s" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Proof

And under extreme circumstances, the Romulans would probably let the Federation use cloaking technology.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2010, 05:09:15 PM »


Okay, proof that Star Wars tech > 29th century Trek tech? I'm not saying that Star Wars isn't less advanced than 29th century Trek tech, I'm just saying that we can't outright say the Borg can't assimilate the Empire when we have no idea of their limits. It supports the claim that they would be able to if they could assimilate technology from 500 years in the future.


I didn't claim that Star Wars tech > 29th century Trek tech.  The burden of proof is on you.

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Unlike the Federation, we can detect cloaked ships, as seen in the Zahn trilogy.

WTF is the Zahn trilogy? I know books are a part of Star Wars cannon, but for the sake of argument, we'll stick with the movies, shall we? I mean, ANYONE can write a book. Only George Lucas can write the movies.


Sorry, but the books are canon.  You can't simply try and exclude them because you don't like them.

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Nope.


You stated in your own post that Endor had a shield that also protected it.

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I'm saying why they went through the shield rather than assault the planet. The Imperial ships went through the shield because unless you want to travel along the surface of the whole planet, you sort of have to.


Right.  What's your point then, since it agrees with mine?

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#t=0m30s" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Proof

And under extreme circumstances, the Romulans would probably let the Federation use cloaking technology.

Fair enough, but the defiant would still need a back up fleet to attack the Death Star (even a back up fleet would not do much, but that's another topic), which would not be cloaked.

The thing is that any major Star Wars faction could, if mobilized, take out the Federation in under a day if the distance between them is small enough.  I'm not exaggerating.  They simply need to deploy one star destroyer to attack each Federation planet and then the remainder to attack the Federation fleet.  Given the huge firepower difference (as in a factor of over 1000), only one star destroyer would be needed to neutralize a Federation planet or a Federation fleet, and the Federation warp drive would be too slow to react to that.  Therefore, in under a day each Federation planet would be blockaded and the fleets neutralized.

The borg might take longer, as would species 8472, but the Federation would not last much longer than a few hours (again, assuming that the travel distance is reasonable).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 05:13:06 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2010, 05:29:27 PM »
Okay, proof that Star Wars tech > 29th century Trek tech? I'm not saying that Star Wars isn't less advanced than 29th century Trek tech, I'm just saying that we can't outright say the Borg can't assimilate the Empire when we have no idea of their limits. It supports the claim that they would be able to if they could assimilate technology from 500 years in the future.
I didn't claim that Star Wars tech > 29th century Trek tech.  The burden of proof is on you.

Aren't you the one who started this thread? It seems the burden of proof is on you since you're the one making the claims.


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Unlike the Federation, we can detect cloaked ships, as seen in the Zahn trilogy.

WTF is the Zahn trilogy? I know books are a part of Star Wars cannon, but for the sake of argument, we'll stick with the movies, shall we? I mean, ANYONE can write a book. Only George Lucas can write the movies.

Sorry, but the books are canon.  You can't simply try and exclude them because you don't like them.

It's glorified fan fiction. I personally disagree that they should be considered canon. In this case, the movies and films are contradictory, since Captain Needa seems to think that cloaked ships "disappear". This either implies that they can't detect cloaked ships, or if they can, it's not a passive scan, meaning they would have to deliberately scan for a cloaked ship. If they don't know it's there, they won't find it either way.


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Nope.

You stated in your own post that Endor had a shield that also protected it.

??? I don't think so. Even if I did, it has been established that it doesn't, so beaming in is possible.


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I'm saying why they went through the shield rather than assault the planet. The Imperial ships went through the shield because unless you want to travel along the surface of the whole planet, you sort of have to.

Right.  What's your point then, since it agrees with mine?

The point being that you can take a cloaked ship in and beam down to Endor.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2010, 05:43:55 PM »

Aren't you the one who started this thread? It seems the burden of proof is on you since you're the one making the claims.


A claim was made that the borg could assimilate a star destroyer.  If you're going to support that statement, you need to back it up with evidence.

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It's glorified fan fiction. I personally disagree that they should be considered canon. In this case, the movies and films are contradictory, since Captain Needa seems to think that cloaked ships "disappear". This either implies that they can't detect cloaked ships, or if they can, it's not a passive scan, meaning they would have to deliberately scan for a cloaked ship. If they don't know it's there, they won't find it either way.


Although it's true that the movies are higher canon than the novels, your "personally" disagreement is not canon.

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??? I don't think so. Even if I did, it has been established that it doesn't, so beaming in is possible.

The point being that you can take a cloaked ship in and beam down to Endor.

No, because a planetary shield is blocking Endor, hence why the Rebels had to trick the imperials into lowering it.

Also, you didn't respond to half of my post.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 05:49:03 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #104 on: October 28, 2010, 05:52:25 PM »
Another thing:

The numbers you state are ridiculous. The star destroyer website states that a light gun has an equivalent power of 300 million GW. That's 300 PW. The total amount of power from the sun hitting the Earth is 174 PW. That means that with one light gun you could almost give the equivalent sunlight power to two Earths. That's a fuckload of power. They should use some abandoned TIE fighters to power civilizations.

In other words, a single light gun has surpassed a Type I civilization on the Kardashev scale.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2010, 05:54:50 PM »
Another thing:

The numbers you state are ridiculous. The star destroyer website states that a light gun has an equivalent power of 300 million GW. That's 300 PW. The total amount of power from the sun hitting the Earth is 174 PW. That means that with one light gun you could almost give the equivalent sunlight power to two Earths. That's a fuckload of power. They should use some abandoned TIE fighters to power civilizations.

I suppose that you're finally getting it; Star Wars ridiculously stomps Star Trek (excluding the Q and other such beings) because it's simply that powerful.  I don't mean any disrespect to Star Trek, but Star Wars simply annihilates Star Trek if it were to come down to a war (again, excluding the Q and other such beings).  Most of the Trekkies that argue for Star Trek in such a debate argue out of ignorance.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »
Another thing:

The numbers you state are ridiculous. The star destroyer website states that a light gun has an equivalent power of 300 million GW. That's 300 PW. The total amount of power from the sun hitting the Earth is 174 PW. That means that with one light gun you could almost give the equivalent sunlight power to two Earths. That's a fuckload of power. They should use some abandoned TIE fighters to power civilizations.

I suppose that you're finally getting it; Star Wars ridiculously stomps Star Trek (excluding the Q and other such beings) because it's simply that powerful.  I don't mean any disrespect to Star Trek, but Star Wars simply annihilates Star Trek if it were to come down to a war (again, excluding the Q and other such beings).  Most of the Trekkies that argue for Star Trek in such a debate argue out of ignorance.

Right, I agree that if the numbers are true, Star Trek would fail utterly in a battle. However, these numbers do not appear to match what is seen onscreen. Are we accepting that a single gun could solve our energy needs forever? It just seems like this numbers was pulled right out of someone's ass. Granted, both series do that, but this number is just so big it is ridiculous. What we see onscreen does not match this number.

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berny_74

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2010, 06:44:01 PM »
Another thing:

The numbers you state are ridiculous. The star destroyer website states that a light gun has an equivalent power of 300 million GW. That's 300 PW. The total amount of power from the sun hitting the Earth is 174 PW. That means that with one light gun you could almost give the equivalent sunlight power to two Earths. That's a fuckload of power. They should use some abandoned TIE fighters to power civilizations.

I suppose that you're finally getting it; Star Wars ridiculously stomps Star Trek (excluding the Q and other such beings) because it's simply that powerful.  I don't mean any disrespect to Star Trek, but Star Wars simply annihilates Star Trek if it were to come down to a war (again, excluding the Q and other such beings).  Most of the Trekkies that argue for Star Trek in such a debate argue out of ignorance.

Right, I agree that if the numbers are true, Star Trek would fail utterly in a battle. However, these numbers do not appear to match what is seen onscreen. Are we accepting that a single gun could solve our energy needs forever? It just seems like this numbers was pulled right out of someone's ass. Granted, both series do that, but this number is just so big it is ridiculous. What we see onscreen does not match this number.000

So instead of pulling numbers out why don't you guys actually compare things side to side.
Like Phasors vs Blasters.  The movies show pretty much what they do to a body.
How effective small craft at are at absorbing damage (asteroids, collisions etc)
General technology of personal matters.

As Trekkybunchonumbers states,  numbers can be pulled out of somebody's ass.  Grab the movies - watch the damage.

Berny
Really guys - this is what your arguing over? 
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Lorddave

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2010, 09:47:01 PM »
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I did.  Borg nanoprobes assimilated 29th century Federation technology without a problem.

That's not proof, because you haven't proven that 29th century Federation > Star Wars.
I don't have to.  I just have to prove that the Borg are capable of assimilating more advanced technology by explaining how the technology works.  And unless SW tech operates on a different set of physical laws (such as computers existing in alternate dimensions) they can assimilate it.

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But if you insist...
Borg insert their nano-probes into a piece of technology.  The nanoprobes then use the surrounding material to replicate (Yes they can eat molecules of Durasteel) and spread, eventually taking control over the computer system.  They're self sufficient so even one nanoprobe can assimilate a human, creating Borg devices within the human body and overtaking the nervous system and brain.  The only thing that might slow them down is all the copper wires found in Star Wars Tech, which doesn't have the speed, data bandwidth, or power rating required to run most things in a Star Wars universe.

Because obviously Star Wars wouldn't have, say computer defense systems?

Not to mention that:

1. the borg cube would have to get within range to do such a thing
2. probes would have to go through the shields
3. nano-technology is indeed in Star Wars, and they'd thus have defenses against that
4. how does this help them?  if they somehow succeed, they get one star destroyer that would take years to reverse engineer, and then have to take on the entire Star Wars galaxy.
You don't seem to understand how a computer works so let me break it down for you.  Instructions for doing basic things are sent from a storage device along some kind of circuit to the CPU which then sends instruction or data to other parts of the computer.  A computer defense only helps if you're trying to attack the software by using the existing hardware.  If you, for example, take over the CPU by rerouting the connections to a set of borg nanoprobes then any software protection you have is irrelevant.  The ONLY defense would be a highly adaptive nanoprobe system inside the computers that can counter unknown, extremely adaptive, and agressive nanites.  Since they don't, Borg nanoprobes win.

Secondly..
1. Yes.  Assimilate an officer with the codes to fly onto a star destroyer.  Take imperial shuttle or tie fighter.  Assimilate Star Destroyer Crew.
2. Yes they can.  Borg assimilation tubules can penetrate any metal or energy field with the exception of multi-phasic shields.
3. You'll have to site sources on this one.  You'd also have to site sources where nanites are used to counter other nanites that are attempting to assimilate the system.  Frankly, Star Trek has nanites and even they can't counter them very well.
4. Why would it take years?  Borg don't reverse engineer, they assimilate and learn from that.  What one drone knows, the whole collective knows.


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How would they get to the other Universe in the first place?  This is a fictional battle.

How about this: the two galaxies are placed side by side, with a suspension of disbelief discounting the huge gravitational problems that would cause.  Fair?
Sure.
Transwarp would do the job.  The Borg have wonderful transwarp coils that allow travel of 70,000 lightyears in a few hours.

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No I'm not.  That's what a cloaking device is.

Which Star Wars has methods to detect.
How exactly?  What methods?

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Shield?  I didn't say that.  I said they can't beam into the shield generator bunker.  You know the building the Rebels blew up in Return of the Jedi?  That building.  Can't beam inside.  Outside?  Sure.  The energy from the power generator is safely contained within the bunker so anything outside is safe to beam up.
The planetary shield would still disrupt the transporters.
[/quote]
There is no planetary shield.  Thank you Trekky for the pic.

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Yes because shuttles usually fly into the atmosphere of a planet at 50% the speed of light...  ::)
Oh, in atmosphere?  Do you expect a space age shuttle to take 30 minutes to land?
Of course not.
I figure 10 minutes before someone notices the guards missing (missed check in), 5 minutes before the alert is sounded for reinforcements, and 5 minutes to get a shuttle preped and ready with Storm Trooper Reinforcements, and 10 minutes to land.

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You mean the planetary shields that allow physical objects to pass through them?  Yes I can see those as being VERY effective at stopping a matter stream...  ::)
Or are you going to claim that Endor was completely covered by a shield?
Actually, they had to trick the imperials into lowering the shield.
Only so they could land close by (or at least appear to land close by).  Oddly enough, they didn't land where they should have.  Why the imperials weren't alerted immediately is an interesting question isn't it?

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You're reading comprehension is epic.  I never said anything about the durability of the door.  I was talking about how it opens and locks.  
Jedi have been shown to be able to open locks.  Therefore, the blast doors would have to have been electronically opened, which destroys your stance.
....
You seem to know nothing about a Tricorder.  It's not a lock-pick set.  It CAN send an electronic signal to the door to open it.  So no, it doesn't destroy my stance.

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....
A Star Destroyer get's destroyed when a single fighter flies through the bridge.  Also, they are unable to withstand asteroids.  (Hence why they were shooting them in Empire Strikes Back)  If the shields were as powerful as you say, they should be able to fly through the asteroid field at full speed without any damage.

Watch more carefully.  The A wing flew into the Executor RIGHT AFTER its shields were specifically stated and shown to have been destroyed.
So the hull and systems are very weak?  Good to know.
By the way: The Enterprise-A survived a photon torpedo through it's saucer section without being destroyed. (after the shields were down).  If it can survive that kind of damage, why not a star destroyer?

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Who said they were going to do it?
And why would they bother?
Transporter + Explosives = Boom.


So they're going to beam onto every star destroyer, somehow sneak past the guards and get enough explosives to blow the thing up and do it to them all without raising an alarm?
No, they're going to beam explosives onto the star destroyer and blow it up.  
Also, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, and Princess Leia and Obi Wan Kenobi managed to sneak around the Death Star without much of a problem.  Even failed to get hit once despite the massive amount of Storm Troopers on the station.  So if they did have to sneak past the guards and plant explosives, they could.  It's been proven.

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Yeah... hand phasers don't but phaser rifles (you know, the ones they take to battle) do.  You only use hand phasers for personal defense, never an assault.
The thing is that the Federation dudes typically use hand phasers, and phaser rifles are actually weaker than hand phasers, such negating their main advantage over blasters.
Rifles weaker?  How do you figure that?  You didn't even know they had them until this thread!

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Why?  It's not like you have any real argument of substance.
Don't dodge the argument.  Counter my points.  If you don't think that they have substance, it should be easy for you to tear apart my arguments and win the debate (but obviously it isn't, hence why you're dodging the point).
One can not win against air yet air has little substance.  I also can't win if you say "Magic".  

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 You're entire basis is on bigger numbers.  That's it.  That's your whole argument.  
No it isn't, but even if it was, like it or not but numbers do matter.  A 200 megaton bomb is more powerful than a 1 megaton bomb.  Mach 2 jet fighters are far more powerful than <mach 1 bi planes.
On they do, if they're real or is sustainable by looking at canon.  Like, if the turbolasers are some kind of plasma, then how can they be so powerful?  Plasma does have an upper limit to how much energy it can contain.  

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Star Destroyer Shields have no frequencies,

So?

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no concept of even how they work,

???  Are you suggesting that they make shields without knowing how to make them?

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and the turbo lasers are the same.

???
So basically you don't know how those work in the SW world.  How, then, can you say they're effective against Star Trek Shields?  For all you know the energy could simply bounce back or be deflected around the shield bubble entirely.  And phaser or even disruptor technology could be easily used to penetrate Star Wars shields.  You can't simply say "it hurts/protects therefore it works for everything".  And until you tell me exactly how they work and on what scientific principal, you have no argument.

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Not only that but a Star Destroyer's docking bay is shielded from air but not ships which means a transporter beam could penetrate it.  
You have proof of this, right?
Of course.
Transporters reduce matter to quarks.  Now unless the shields are designed to prohibit quarks from passing through then yes they could.

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First you should explain the principal behind Sheilds in Star Wars.

It's not known TO US, but does that really matter?  If you want though, here's a link with educated speculation:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Nature.html
Yes it does actually.  If you can't say how they work, how can you say they'll be effective against Star Trek Tech?

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Then explain the principal of Trubolasers.
Some sort of really powerful plasma.
So a strong magnetic field will deflect all turbolasers?  Great.  Heck, if you create a magnetic field that disrupts the magnetic container of the turbo laser blast, you could literally explode it long before it reaches you.

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THEN I'll kick your ass with technobabble.


First counter my long list of Star Wars technologies which you cleverly dodged, and counter it with real Science and logic (not technobabble).

Let me ask you a question:

You still haven't explained how destroying the shield generator would matter because the Defiant would not be able to take out the Death Star.  The Federation would need:

1. A large number starfighters capable of making >10,000 g turns
2. Very good pilots
3. Ships capable of holding off the imperial fleet
4. Technical data on the Death Star

Problems:

1. Star Trek starfighters and both rare and inferior to Star Wars starfighters
2. Maybe, maybe not.
3. As I have shown, the Enterprise would have to fire over 2 billion times to damage a star destroyer.
4. The Federation doesn't have that.  They can't steal the plans because they have no idea where the Death Star is and their warp drives wouldn't be able to reach it.  Even if they did have it, placing a fleet near the battlefield would be a giveaway.  They'd have to keep the fleet out of Star Wars sensor range (which is pretty far) and then jump in, but warp drive is too slow for this because it would be weeks before they can get there, by which case Star Wars could have reinforced the battlesite or simply have left it.
Ummm... you want me to counter a fictional technology with actual science?  Really?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 01:09:41 AM by Lorddave »
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Wendy

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2010, 12:54:29 AM »
Man, arguing fanboys makes my head hurt. And I debate with YE creationists for fun.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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Vindictus

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2010, 01:03:30 AM »
YOU GUYS ARE ARGUING OVER 2 FICTIONAL UNIVERSES.

NO ONE IS GOING TO WIN.

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Lorddave

  • 18295
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2010, 01:10:32 AM »
YOU GUYS ARE ARGUING OVER 2 FICTIONAL UNIVERSES.

NO ONE IS GOING TO WIN.
Of course not.  I just like watching nerd rage.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2010, 01:23:55 AM »
What happens when  the Void trilogy (Peter F. Hamilton) meets Star Wars

The deterrence fleet stormed through the galactic void  at more than 60 light years per hour, not even bothering to cover it's enourmous quantum disruption it left behind admiral kazimir would have sighed if he had the breath to blow or the lips to blow it through he wished he'd left the part of his ppersonality which handled boredom behind, as well as his conscience. He looked out tat the galaxy ahead. Not long now.

*

Kazimir dropped out of ftl less than one au from coruscant's star and selected the weapon where it resided in his quantum interslice. He gave a wary look to the fleet of 'star destroyers' crowding the system and carefully locked weapon enhancements on each of the 200 ships, ready to take them out if they presented a threat.such an idea was laughable, of course but it paid to be prepared.

Solemnly he fired the nova bomb, aimed directly at the star. Enemy defences leapt to life, pumping turbolasers and ion cannons into the small missile. The weapon was designed to withstand the photosphere of a g-class star, the weapons barely grazed it.

Still, kazimir launched a volley of missiles and interfered with the ship's shields at a quantum level to leave them offline and completely vulnerable. Three seconds later the star dedstroyer fleet was nothing more than a cloud of radioactive plasma. The fleet jumped back into ftl and retreated from a safe distance from the star as the nova bomb struck.

It took light almost an hour to reach the fleet but kazimir watched in hysradar as the star glowed a brilliant white, bulged ominously then exploded in a ball of plasma 10au in diameter.

"mission accomplished" he thought grimly as he left the vaporised imperial throne-world.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2010, 01:38:51 AM »
Am I the only person that finds it depressing that the only science we argue about anymore in Science & Alternative Science is star wars vrs star trek or young earth? could we have an argument again when both sides are using actual science please?
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2010, 01:47:47 AM »
Another thing:

The numbers you state are ridiculous. The star destroyer website states that a light gun has an equivalent power of 300 million GW. That's 300 PW. The total amount of power from the sun hitting the Earth is 174 PW. That means that with one light gun you could almost give the equivalent sunlight power to two Earths. That's a fuckload of power. They should use some abandoned TIE fighters to power civilizations.

I suppose that you're finally getting it; Star Wars ridiculously stomps Star Trek (excluding the Q and other such beings) because it's simply that powerful.  I don't mean any disrespect to Star Trek, but Star Wars simply annihilates Star Trek if it were to come down to a war (again, excluding the Q and other such beings).  Most of the Trekkies that argue for Star Trek in such a debate argue out of ignorance.

Right, I agree that if the numbers are true, Star Trek would fail utterly in a battle. However, these numbers do not appear to match what is seen onscreen. Are we accepting that a single gun could solve our energy needs forever? It just seems like this numbers was pulled right out of someone's ass. Granted, both series do that, but this number is just so big it is ridiculous. What we see onscreen does not match this number.000

So instead of pulling numbers out why don't you guys actually compare things side to side.
Like Phasors vs Blasters.  The movies show pretty much what they do to a body.
How effective small craft at are at absorbing damage (asteroids, collisions etc)
General technology of personal matters.

As Trekkybunchonumbers states,  numbers can be pulled out of somebody's ass.  Grab the movies - watch the damage.

Berny
Really guys - this is what your arguing over? 

I agree with this. Instead of using numbers that are purely made up, use what we can observe from the movies. After all, if one star destoryer gun has the same strength as two suns, they would just use those to blow up planets. Having the Death Star would be pointless as you already have capital ships that can easily do what it's purpose is.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2010, 02:17:10 AM »
So instead of pulling numbers out why don't you guys actually compare things side to side.
Like Phasors vs Blasters.  The movies show pretty much what they do to a body.
How effective small craft at are at absorbing damage (asteroids, collisions etc)
General technology of personal matters.

As Trekkybunchonumbers states,  numbers can be pulled out of somebody's ass.  Grab the movies - watch the damage.

Berny
Really guys - this is what your arguing over?  

Why do you think I haven't been interested as of yet?

Since weapon and shield strength are completely made up at the author's discretion, this is essentially a battle of "who can name the higher number."

Also, just to expand on the absurdity of the projected numbers, consider this:
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:24:14 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Lorddave

  • 18295
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2010, 02:20:13 AM »
So instead of pulling numbers out why don't you guys actually compare things side to side.
Like Phasors vs Blasters.  The movies show pretty much what they do to a body.
How effective small craft at are at absorbing damage (asteroids, collisions etc)
General technology of personal matters.

As Trekkybunchonumbers states,  numbers can be pulled out of somebody's ass.  Grab the movies - watch the damage.

Berny
Really guys - this is what your arguing over? 

Why do you think I haven't been interested as of yet?

Since weapon and shield strength are completely made up at the author's discretion, this is essentially a battle of "who can name the higher number?".

Oh it's not about the numbers...
It's about who can come up with the best technobabble.  Then back it up with what's viewed.  It's rather fun sometimes.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2010, 02:23:56 AM »
Oh it's not about the numbers...
It's about who can come up with the best technobabble.  Then back it up with what's viewed.  It's rather fun sometimes.
Perhaps, but eventually the technobabble will fall back onto the arbitrary and ultimately meaningless numbers.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Lorddave

  • 18295
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #118 on: October 29, 2010, 02:25:57 AM »
Oh it's not about the numbers...
It's about who can come up with the best technobabble.  Then back it up with what's viewed.  It's rather fun sometimes.
Perhaps, but eventually the technobabble will fall back onto the arbitrary and ultimately meaningless numbers.

Or I can write more SW vs ST fan-fics. heheheheh....
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Wendy

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #119 on: October 29, 2010, 04:29:08 AM »
Am I the only person that finds it depressing that the only science we argue about anymore in Science & Alternative Science is star wars vrs star trek or young earth?

Far from it. we just love feeding the trolls.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.