Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #330 on: November 09, 2010, 01:20:27 PM »
@Mugthulhu:

So you're using the OP to try and argue that the Q would be included when the OP clearly states that the Q is NOT allowed in this scenario?
You say it's about Star Wars vs. Star Trek (according to thread title). Wouldn't this imply that it's about everything in Star Wars vs. everything in Star Trek?
So why exactly are you trying to ban Q from the fight?
This was left unanswered, unless I missed something.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #331 on: November 09, 2010, 01:34:33 PM »
@Mugthulhu:

So you're using the OP to try and argue that the Q would be included when the OP clearly states that the Q is NOT allowed in this scenario?
You say it's about Star Wars vs. Star Trek (according to thread title). Wouldn't this imply that it's about everything in Star Wars vs. everything in Star Trek?
So why exactly are you trying to ban Q from the fight?
This was left unanswered, unless I missed something.

Your argument is based on a pointless technicality.  I said that Star Wars would beat Star Trek.  I did not clarify which forces would included in detail because that's what the OP is for.

In the OP, I clarified that this does not include the Q.  Why is it so hard for you to understand this?

Also, your failure to provide any argument for Star Trek other than the Q is a clear sign of conceding.  You have no argument, so you just fall back to criticizing the OP. 

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EnigmaZV

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #332 on: November 09, 2010, 01:59:55 PM »
This is how the scenario would go...
The Star Destroyer rolls up to the Sol system, the 29th century Federation is all "I don't think so bitches" and goes back in time to the creation of the Star Wars galaxy and drops some Red Matter into the center of it obliterating the entire population of the Star Wars galaxy before they had a chance to even exist.  They laugh heartily and exclaim to the void "Nobody messes with Earth!"

Star Trek wins!
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #333 on: November 09, 2010, 02:02:06 PM »
ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FLAT EARTH STAR TREK!!!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 02:03:39 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #334 on: November 09, 2010, 02:14:28 PM »
Using this:

In the episode "Rise" that I mentioned above, it was stated that Voyager could vaporize the nickel-iron asteroid seen in the episode.

So:

I'd estimate that the asteroid is anywhere from one quarter to one third the size of voyager, so around 100 meters across.

Vaporization energy: 7.5 megatons.

So we know that a photon torpedo has a yield of at least this. The Technical Manual give a figure of 64 megatons, which would vaporize an asteroid 200 meters across, but let's stick to 7.5 megatons for now.

The stardestroyer.net estimates that the asteroid in The Empire Strikes Back to be around 40 meters in diameter based on the size of the Millenium Falcon. I'm fine with that.

Vaporization energy: 479.1 kilotons.

So a turbolaser has at least a yield of this.

So, unless you can show a figure that justifies the 200 gigaton yield, I'm sticking with the theory that in terms of yield, a photon torpedo is probably about the same as a turbolaser. There's not much else I can get out of this.

To be clear, a 200 gigaton blast would vaporize an asteroid 3 kilometers across. That is a huge asteroid. So unless we get proof of this number, the facts show that in comparison, Star Wars might have slightly stronger weapons, but not by a long shot the 200 gigaton figure you claim.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #335 on: November 09, 2010, 02:24:36 PM »
Just to try and make this clear:

3 kilometers is equal to two star destroyer lengths.

I don't think you heard that.

TWO STAR DESTROYER LENGTHS

And this man is claiming one turbolaser would vaporize that shit.

WTF?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #336 on: November 09, 2010, 02:26:24 PM »
This is how the scenario would go...
The Star Destroyer rolls up to the Sol system, the 29th century Federation is all "I don't think so bitches" and goes back in time to the creation of the Star Wars galaxy and drops some Red Matter into the center of it obliterating the entire population of the Star Wars galaxy before they had a chance to even exist.  They laugh heartily and exclaim to the void "Nobody messes with Earth!"

Star Trek wins!

Oh ya, I'd forgotten about red matter.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #337 on: November 09, 2010, 02:27:40 PM »
This is how the scenario would go...
The Star Destroyer rolls up to the Sol system, the 29th century Federation is all "I don't think so bitches" and goes back in time to the creation of the Star Wars galaxy and drops some Red Matter into the center of it obliterating the entire population of the Star Wars galaxy before they had a chance to even exist.  They laugh heartily and exclaim to the void "Nobody messes with Earth!"

Star Trek wins!

Oh ya, I'd forgotten about red matter.

LA LA LA LA LA LA THAT NEVER HAPPENED LA LA LA LA LA

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #338 on: November 09, 2010, 02:36:04 PM »


Greater power != more advanced.

Actually, it does unless if the less power has some advantage, which it doesn't in this case.

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You have yet to prove the security devices are any different.

I did.  You ignored it.


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This does explain how it works. Explain how they communicate.


Probably hyperspace.

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Don't try to change the subject. We are discussing your shields. Now do you admit that claiming that the shields block all radiation is fallacious, or not?


"don't try to change the subject" - you've changed the subject of this debate and refused to follow our agreement.  You also cleverly cut out the last part of my post.

Quote


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

Why wouldn't they? Assimilation gives the Borg knowledge of how stuff works. It is irrelevant how advanced it is. They will still gain the knowledge of the person they assimilate. The process is exactly the same regardless of who it is.

No, this is false.  The Roman Empire might be able to reverse engineer a longbow, but a tank?  No.

Now explain to me why you have blatantly refused to follow your end of the bargain and respond to my points, you hypocrite. 

Also explain why security is relevant in this scenario when the Federation wouldn't even be able to get anywhere near a Star Wars planet in under a century.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #339 on: November 09, 2010, 02:40:23 PM »
The Roman Empire can't reverse engineer a tank because they don't have the knowledge to do so. When the Borg assimilate a race, they gain knowledge from that race.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #340 on: November 09, 2010, 02:42:02 PM »
Using this:

In the episode "Rise" that I mentioned above, it was stated that Voyager could vaporize the nickel-iron asteroid seen in the episode.

So:

I'd estimate that the asteroid is anywhere from one quarter to one third the size of voyager, so around 100 meters across.

Vaporization energy: 7.5 megatons.

So we know that a photon torpedo has a yield of at least this. The Technical Manual give a figure of 64 megatons, which would vaporize an asteroid 200 meters across, but let's stick to 7.5 megatons for now.

The stardestroyer.net estimates that the asteroid in The Empire Strikes Back to be around 40 meters in diameter based on the size of the Millenium Falcon. I'm fine with that.

Vaporization energy: 479.1 kilotons.

So a turbolaser has at least a yield of this.

So, unless you can show a figure that justifies the 200 gigaton yield, I'm sticking with the theory that in terms of yield, a photon torpedo is probably about the same as a turbolaser. There's not much else I can get out of this.

To be clear, a 200 gigaton blast would vaporize an asteroid 3 kilometers across. That is a huge asteroid. So unless we get proof of this number, the facts show that in comparison, Star Wars might have slightly stronger weapons, but not by a long shot the 200 gigaton figure you claim.

Clearly, you completely ignored my post where I proved many of the figures you're asking for proof.  Of course, you completely ignored my post despite you and that other poster being the ones to request it.

Not to mention the fact that you fail to grasp that the 200 gigaton yield is CANON, and thus is true unless if you can find a contradiction with a higher source of canon, which you have yet to do.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #341 on: November 09, 2010, 02:45:52 PM »
Let's say I made a book where a turbolaser took out moon, while the movies show the turbolasers only taking out small asteroids. Are you saying that this is not a contradiction? It is in my book. The films simply do not show the firepower you claim, and as I have shown, the creators admit that the books are not totally canon as you also claim. You can't seem to grasp that the books, even if they have no contradictions, are still held in the light that they are not completely canon.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #342 on: November 09, 2010, 02:53:59 PM »
Could you provide a link to your justification of 200 gigatons? All I found was energy conversions based on numbers you also didn't justify.

See, what I have done is justify my numbers with evidence. Simply pulling numbers out of the air because the ICS or some other book (which as I have shown with a quote, the books are not totally canon) says they are canon is not scientific.

On books, since you seem to think books are absolute canon.

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When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them.

In the case of ICS, the man wanted to PWN Star Trek, which makes his figures open to speculation.

Trollin' with style
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 03:07:17 PM by Trekky0623 »

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #343 on: November 09, 2010, 03:22:17 PM »
Quote
Quote
Greater power != more advanced.

Actually, it does unless if the less power has some advantage, which it doesn't in this case.

As Dave pointed out, an iPhone uses less energy than a microwave, yet it is far more advanced.

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You have yet to prove the security devices are any different.

I did.  You ignored it.

Saying, "It is more powerful" doesn't prove that they are using more advanced technology. Hot wiring 200 gigawatt wires is no different than hot wiring 5watt wires.

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Quote

This does explain how it works. Explain how they communicate.


Probably hyperspace.

So you don't know how they communicate?

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Don't try to change the subject. We are discussing your shields. Now do you admit that claiming that the shields block all radiation is fallacious, or not?


"don't try to change the subject" - you've changed the subject of this debate and refused to follow our agreement.  You also cleverly cut out the last part of my post.

Address the question, you are once against not answering because you know you are wrong.

Quote
Quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

Why wouldn't they? Assimilation gives the Borg knowledge of how stuff works. It is irrelevant how advanced it is. They will still gain the knowledge of the person they assimilate. The process is exactly the same regardless of who it is.

No, this is false.  The Roman Empire might be able to reverse engineer a longbow, but a tank?  No.

Now explain to me why you have blatantly refused to follow your end of the bargain and respond to my points, you hypocrite. 

Also explain why security is relevant in this scenario when the Federation wouldn't even be able to get anywhere near a Star Wars planet in under a century.

The Roman Empire does not understand how to build the tank, that is the difference. Assimilate isn't reverse engineering, taking a person and using their knowledge. The Borg WOULD understand how the tank works.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #344 on: November 09, 2010, 03:24:34 PM »
He is scrambling now. He knows that Star Wars would lose due to time travel, and that is why he isn't addressing anyone that is bringing it up.

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Vindictus

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #345 on: November 09, 2010, 03:34:40 PM »
Which Universe do you like more, EG?


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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #346 on: November 09, 2010, 03:38:03 PM »
Which Universe do you like more, EG?

Star Trek, since it is more realistic and also contains the planet I currently inhabit.

That and even if I liked Star Wars more, I wouldn't take it's side. As proven by roundearthguy, the Star Wars side has terribad arguments.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #347 on: November 09, 2010, 04:02:25 PM »
Which Universe do you like more, EG?
Star Trek, since it is more realistic

There is something seriously wrong with this statement.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #348 on: November 09, 2010, 04:38:13 PM »
Which Universe do you like more, EG?
Star Trek, since it is more realistic

There is something seriously wrong with this statement.

Than Star Wars? I think so.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #349 on: November 09, 2010, 04:42:46 PM »
On power generation:

Star Wars Acclamator: 200 trillion gigawatts
Star Trek Enterprise: About 12 billion gigawatts

Unless if you're going to claim that the Enterprise is smaller by several thousand times, it's still produces less power per volume of space than an Acclamator.  An Iphone is more advanced than a microwave not because of power generation; that's bad analogy, since an iphone is more electrical based and would be rely on generating huge amounts of energy since it isn't a reactor - it USES energy.

On time travel:

1. The Federation hasn't done controlled time travel except for possibly the 31st century Federation and other advanced versions of the Federation
2. Time travel in Star Trek usually creates an alternate reality
3. The Federation hasn't ever gone back tens of thousands of years back in time, which is how far they'd have to go to stand a chance
4. The Federation still wouldn't have any idea where the Star Wars home planets are, and thus would not be able to preemptively wipe them out.
5. The Federation wouldn't know how far back to go.  If they go too far back, then end up facing the Celestials, who would pwn the Federation if it came to a war.
6. The Federation lacks the fuel to go across the galaxy and find Coruscant or another key Star Wars planet.
7. Star Wars has time travel too; although it can't change the past, it can allow for Force users to spy on how the Federation makes time travel and then using that to build Star Wars time travel ships.  Source:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flow-walking

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #350 on: November 09, 2010, 04:48:00 PM »
Which Universe do you like more, EG?
Star Trek, since it is more realistic

There is something seriously wrong with this statement.

Than Star Wars? I think so.

Star Trek has a huge amount of pseudoscience, such as talking about producing a certain amount of gigawatts "per second" and ships stopping in space when they run out of fuel.  Star Wars actually has decent physics, especially in many of the EU novels. 

Another thing is that Star Trek wanks to nano tech and bio tech as if they were uber awesome.  Although nanotechnology has potential in many areas, Star Trek overexaggerates its strengths and goes into a bunch of unrealistic nanotechnology weapons.  Biotechnology is also NOT superior to mechanical technology.  A tank is superior to a horse in terms of firepower, durability and overall effectiveness if its properly supposed.  Although biotechnology does have advantages in medicine (since we are biological) and weapons directed at humans (since we're organic), using biotechnology against armored ships and shields is wank.

BTW, you claim that I have crappy arguments, but I proved the 200 gigaton claim to be true.  Since you haven't countered it, it therefore stands as it has not been refuted yet.

Therefore, Star Wars wins, unless if you can disprove my post, which you STILL DODGE AND IGNORE, DESPITE BEING THE ONE TO REQUEST IT.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #351 on: November 09, 2010, 04:51:52 PM »
How come the droids in Star Wars looks like a pile of scrap while the technology in Star Trek, which is supposed to be far less advanced, has got androids like Data?

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #352 on: November 09, 2010, 05:09:32 PM »
How come the droids in Star Wars looks like a pile of scrap while the technology in Star Trek, which is supposed to be far less advanced, has got androids like Data?

Typical Trekkie argument; "omg Star Trek technology LOOKS better in some cases so therefore it must be better!"

What matters in a war is performance.  Even if Star Wars technology looks "like a pile of scrap" (which it doesn't, although the OT was restricted by the technology of its time), it's still more advanced because it's shown to have thousands of times more power output, production, speed, etc.  Therefore, it's more advanced, regardless of how many fancy touch screens it has.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #353 on: November 09, 2010, 05:37:55 PM »
Keep crying. Star Trek has time travel so they can just destroy the Star Wars Galaxy eons before even the Celestials existed.

A tank is superior to a horse in terms of firepower, durability and overall effectiveness if its properly supposed.

This comparison is absolutely retarded. You might as well state that a jet fighter is more effective than a pigeon, you are comparing two completely different things.

In the movie, "Cloverfield" biology kicks the shit out of technology.

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Star Trek has a huge amount of pseudoscience

...
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 05:42:17 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #354 on: November 09, 2010, 05:51:55 PM »
He keeps avoiding the fact that Star Trek has time travel because he knows he will lose. Watch, he is going to say, "You can't use that either. Not fair!" just like he did with Q.

He is just mad because Star Wars authors tried to cheat and use arbitrarily large numbers and they still lose. He is mad because he is having to create retarded rationalizations to explain contradictions and he still loses.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #355 on: November 09, 2010, 06:21:11 PM »
Which Universe do you like more, EG?
Star Trek, since it is more realistic

There is something seriously wrong with this statement.

Than Star Wars? I think so.

No. Star Trek essentially makes up bullshit that's supposed to sound like science.
The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too strong to be broken. -Samuel Johnson

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #356 on: November 09, 2010, 06:56:41 PM »
He keeps avoiding the fact that Star Trek has time travel because he knows he will lose. Watch, he is going to say, "You can't use that either. Not fair!" just like he did with Q.

He is just mad because Star Wars authors tried to cheat and use arbitrarily large numbers and they still lose. He is mad because he is having to create retarded rationalizations to explain contradictions and he still loses.

You do realize that I made a post refuting the time travel argument:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43465.msg1087785#msg1087785

 (which Trekkies like you consistently bring up near the end of a debate when you're losing, as you have failed to even try to refute the 200 gigaton claim), but, as usual, you completely ignored it?

Since you fail to refute my rebuttal, my rebuttal stands.  Star Wars wins, and time travel would not save the Federation, who would be better off surrendering.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #357 on: November 09, 2010, 07:20:15 PM »
On time travel:

1. The Federation hasn't done controlled time travel except for possibly the 31st century Federation and other advanced versions of the Federation

Incorrect.

Quote from: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Time_travel
Sometime in 2268 the Enterprise traveled back in time, using the light-speed breakaway factor, to 1968 on a historical research mission. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth")

In 2286, Admiral James T. Kirk and his senior staff took a stolen Klingon Bird-of-Prey back in time to the year 1986 to retrieve a pair of then (2286)-extinct humpback whales to save Earth from destruction by an alien probe. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)

2. Time travel in Star Trek usually creates an alternate reality

Not usually. In fact, is is unusual for it to do so. Far more often actual time-travel occurs.

3. The Federation hasn't ever gone back tens of thousands of years back in time, which is how far they'd have to go to stand a chance

And? Can you prove that they could not be able to do this? Just because it does not explicitly say that they have done it, doesn't mean they can't. This is no different than your rationalization that Jengo must have just turned down the power on his laser, or that their are more complex door security systems. There is no explicit statement of this, yet you infer it.

4. The Federation still wouldn't have any idea where the Star Wars home planets are, and thus would not be able to preemptively wipe them out.

They don't have to destroy the planets. Destroy the galaxy when it is forming.

5. The Federation wouldn't know how far back to go.  If they go too far back, then end up facing the Celestials, who would pwn the Federation if it came to a war.

They go back before even them. They could just say. "Eh, just go back a billion years, just in case".

6. The Federation lacks the fuel to go across the galaxy and find Coruscant or another key Star Wars planet.

They don't need to.

7. Star Wars has time travel too; although it can't change the past, it can allow for Force users to spy on how the Federation makes time travel and then using that to build Star Wars time travel ships.  Source:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flow-walking

Your own source defeats you. A Jedi can only look into the past, not the future. And it isn't possible for him to look back and see the Federation destroy his galaxy, since he would not exist if they did.



Interesting that you bring up not refuting arguments since you never refuted this one:

Evidence that you are a total hypocrite.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 07:29:16 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #358 on: November 09, 2010, 07:59:02 PM »
On power generation:

Star Wars Acclamator: 200 trillion gigawatts
Star Trek Enterprise: About 12 billion gigawatts

Where did you get these numbers?


1. The Federation hasn't done controlled time travel except for possibly the 31st century Federation and other advanced versions of the Federation

Star Trek IV. Spock used the Sun's gravitation to time travel. Somehow. Cuz he's fucking Spock.


2. Time travel in Star Trek usually creates an alternate reality

Not in Star Trek IV. Or First Contact.


3. The Federation hasn't ever gone back tens of thousands of years back in time, which is how far they'd have to go to stand a chance

True, though there really isn't any reason why going back tens of thousands of years would be any more difficult than travelling a couple hundred years.


5. The Federation wouldn't know how far back to go.  If they go too far back, then end up facing the Celestials, who would pwn the Federation if it came to a war.

I'm sure Star Wars has a couple of history books.

Let me be clear about my views in this thread. I do believe that the Galactic Empire would beat the Federation in a fair fight. However, I do not agree with RoundEarthGuy's basis for proving that. A fair fight for me would involve only the Star Trek series and films and only the Star Wars films. Even then, I agree Star Wars would win. But I want RoundEarthGuy to admit that the books and other fan made material are not as canon as the films, and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #359 on: November 10, 2010, 01:06:03 AM »
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3. The Federation hasn't ever gone back tens of thousands of years back in time, which is how far they'd have to go to stand a chance

No, the USS Enterprise - J went back millions of years during the Temporal Cold War to stop a rival faction from preventing the Suliban from achieving sentience...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_Cold_War#Millions_of_years_ago