Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2010, 06:32:29 AM »
Sorry, maybe it was more like that of a single standard star.  Either way, to generate a planet busting attack would require a reactor of amazing power.

Can somebody explain to me how this is possible without magic?  If it has the energy output of a star, and presumably the stored energy that could be generated by a star over it's lifetime, then wouldn't the reactor also have the mass (and therefore the gravitational pull) of a star?  How would one even build a ship around that, it would be crushed.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #121 on: October 29, 2010, 06:42:10 AM »
Sorry, maybe it was more like that of a single standard star.  Either way, to generate a planet busting attack would require a reactor of amazing power.

Can somebody explain to me how this is possible without magic?  If it has the energy output of a star, and presumably the stored energy that could be generated by a star over it's lifetime, then wouldn't the reactor also have the mass (and therefore the gravitational pull) of a star?  How would one even build a ship around that, it would be crushed.

MAGIC DAMN YOU STFU.

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Wendy

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #122 on: October 29, 2010, 07:16:05 AM »
The planet buster thing got me thinking about the Exterminatus of the 40k universe(Which doesn't really destroy a planet, as much as glassing the entire surface, making it unable to support life, among other methods) and how scary the borg would be, were they to assimilate the Orks. Think about it, nigh invulnerable death machines which release microbial spores wherever they go that'll grow into more of them in a couple of years' time.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #123 on: October 29, 2010, 07:28:31 AM »
The planet buster thing got me thinking about the Exterminatus of the 40k universe(Which doesn't really destroy a planet, as much as glassing the entire surface, making it unable to support life, among other methods) and how scary the borg would be, were they to assimilate the Orks. Think about it, nigh invulnerable death machines which release microbial spores wherever they go that'll grow into more of them in a couple of years' time.

That would be sick.  Also, what would happen if the borg assimilated the Zentradi?  50 foot tall humans who can survive in space for short periods of time (they still need to breath, but there bodies are powerful enough not to explosivly decompress).

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #124 on: October 29, 2010, 12:51:53 PM »

I don't have to.  I just have to prove that the Borg are capable of assimilating more advanced technology by explaining how the technology works.  And unless SW tech operates on a different set of physical laws (such as computers existing in alternate dimensions) they can assimilate it.


No limits fallacy.  A WW2 America could possibly reverse engineer an Abrams tank, but a Greek philosopher couldn't.

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You don't seem to understand how a computer works so let me break it down for you.  Instructions for doing basic things are sent from a storage device along some kind of circuit to the CPU which then sends instruction or data to other parts of the computer.  A computer defense only helps if you're trying to attack the software by using the existing hardware.  If you, for example, take over the CPU by rerouting the connections to a set of borg nanoprobes then any software protection you have is irrelevant.  The ONLY defense would be a highly adaptive nanoprobe system inside the computers that can counter unknown, extremely adaptive, and agressive nanites.  Since they don't, Borg nanoprobes win.


Because obviously Star Wars computer defense systems are on the same level as ours and don't take nanoprobes into account even when Star Wars also has them.

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Secondly..
1. Yes.  Assimilate an officer with the codes to fly onto a star destroyer.  Take imperial shuttle or tie fighter.  Assimilate Star Destroyer Crew.
2. Yes they can.  Borg assimilation tubules can penetrate any metal or energy field with the exception of multi-phasic shields.
3. You'll have to site sources on this one.  You'd also have to site sources where nanites are used to counter other nanites that are attempting to assimilate the system.  Frankly, Star Trek has nanites and even they can't counter them very well.
4. Why would it take years?  Borg don't reverse engineer, they assimilate and learn from that.  What one drone knows, the whole collective knows.


1. Explain how they assimilate said officer.
2. No limits fallacy...again.  That's what Trekkies almost always do with the borg.
3. They created a nano virus that could kill people with certain genetic origin and spread it over a planet.
4. Which is yet another no limits fallacy.

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Sure.
Transwarp would do the job.  The Borg have wonderful transwarp coils that allow travel of 70,000 lightyears in a few hours.


The borg do, but the Federation, Romulans and other such races without transwarp would literally be non factors because they wouldn't be able to even get to the Star Wars galaxy.

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How exactly?  What methods?

I provided a link in my argument w/Trekkie.

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There is no planetary shield.  Thank you Trekky for the pic.


I debunked that.  If there was no planetary shield, the Rebels would simply have to bombard the base from space.

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Of course not.
I figure 10 minutes before someone notices the guards missing (missed check in), 5 minutes before the alert is sounded for reinforcements, and 5 minutes to get a shuttle preped and ready with Storm Trooper Reinforcements, and 10 minutes to land.

That's not what you said.  You said that it would take them 30 minutes to land.

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Only so they could land close by (or at least appear to land close by).  Oddly enough, they didn't land where they should have.  Why the imperials weren't alerted immediately is an interesting question isn't it?

Actually, Vader knew that Luke was on the ship and therefore had the shield lowered (this is mentioned in both the movie and novel).

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You seem to know nothing about a Tricorder.  It's not a lock-pick set.  It CAN send an electronic signal to the door to open it.  So no, it doesn't destroy my stance.


No limits fallacy...again.


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So the hull and systems are very weak?  Good to know.

Firstly this doesn't matter since it would take over 2 billion photon torpedos to get past the shields of a star destroyer, so the Federation isn't ever going to destroy a star destroyer or get to attack its hull.  Secondly the A wing hit the transpirasteel part of the bridge.

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By the way: The Enterprise-A survived a photon torpedo through it's saucer section without being destroyed. (after the shields were down).  If it can survive that kind of damage, why not a star destroyer?

The A wing hit the main reactor, causing it to explode.  Before you ask for proof, note that this is the ONLY possible explanation unless if the A wing detonated (which still supports my argument).  Even if the Executor were made out of glass (and somehow functional) or some other relatively very weak material, an object colliding with it would not have exploded at the rate that the Executor did.



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No, they're going to beam explosives onto the star destroyer and blow it up.  

Star destroyerS.  They'd have to get the shields down first, which is impossible as I have shown (aka >2 billion photon torpedos needed)

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Also, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, and Princess Leia and Obi Wan Kenobi managed to sneak around the Death Star without much of a problem.  Even failed to get hit once despite the massive amount of Storm Troopers on the station.  So if they did have to sneak past the guards and plant explosives, they could.  It's been proven.

No, because you're cleverly disguising the assumption that the security on a star destroyer =< the security on the Death Star.  In the novel Star Wars: Death Star a character commented on how pathetic BY STAR WARS STANDARDS the security on the death star was.  Therefore, the security on star destroyers are bound to be greater - as proven, since there is not a single instance in which even Jedi were able to infiltrate a star destroyer without being detected.

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Rifles weaker?  How do you figure that?  You didn't even know they had them until this thread!

Bullshit; I knew they had them.  However, phaser rifles don't vaporize rocks like hand phasers do.



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One can not win against air yet air has little substance.  I also can't win if you say "Magic".  

Centerpoint station
Galaxy Gun
Stealth X's
Jedi and other Force users
>1 quadrillion gigawatt power generation
>200 gigaton firepower
several million planets

Counter each of these.



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On they do, if they're real or is sustainable by looking at canon.  Like, if the turbolasers are some kind of plasma, then how can they be so powerful?  Plasma does have an upper limit to how much energy it can contain.  

You're arguing on the shaky ground of questioning canon.  Turbolasers are plasma, but their exact nature isn't known.  They could be modified plasma, which they probably are. 

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So basically you don't know how those work in the SW world.  How, then, can you say they're effective against Star Trek Shields?  For all you know the energy could simply bounce back or be deflected around the shield bubble entirely.  And phaser or even disruptor technology could be easily used to penetrate Star Wars shields.  You can't simply say "it hurts/protects therefore it works for everything".  And until you tell me exactly how they work and on what scientific principal, you have no argument.

Counter question: How do Star Trek shields work?  And please give me a more detailed response than "frequencies!".

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Of course.
Transporters reduce matter to quarks.  Now unless the shields are designed to prohibit quarks from passing through then yes they could.

Let's assume that shields can't (which hasn't been proven either way). 

They'd be detected (again; Jedi can't infiltrate star destroyers without being detected, so Federation troops certainly can't).  Bam!  They get trapped by a ray shield from ROTS.  They're screwed.


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Yes it does actually.  If you can't say how they work, how can you say they'll be effective against Star Trek Tech?

This is a rather desperate argument of you, but if you insist:

Photon torpedos are physical projectiles, and therefore can be stopped by shields.
Phasers are too short ranged and weak to actually hurt a star destroyer's hull, but even if they weren't, they envolve "nadion", which is radiation, which Star Wars shields can stop.

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So a strong magnetic field will deflect all turbolasers?  Great.  Heck, if you create a magnetic field that disrupts the magnetic container of the turbo laser blast, you could literally explode it long before it reaches you.


Except that you don't know that the containment field is magnetic.

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Ummm... you want me to counter a fictional technology with actual science?  Really?

Why don't you actually answer the post instead of focusing on only the first line of it?

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Lorddave

  • 18295
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #125 on: October 30, 2010, 12:09:41 AM »

I don't have to.  I just have to prove that the Borg are capable of assimilating more advanced technology by explaining how the technology works.  And unless SW tech operates on a different set of physical laws (such as computers existing in alternate dimensions) they can assimilate it.


No limits fallacy.  A WW2 America could possibly reverse engineer an Abrams tank, but a Greek philosopher couldn't.
Your assumption is that Borg reverse engineer stuff.  They don't, they assimilate.  But they're also have the brain power of a few trillion minds working simultaneously.  They're capable of adapting to enemy weapons fire after only a few shots. 

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You don't seem to understand how a computer works so let me break it down for you.  Instructions for doing basic things are sent from a storage device along some kind of circuit to the CPU which then sends instruction or data to other parts of the computer.  A computer defense only helps if you're trying to attack the software by using the existing hardware.  If you, for example, take over the CPU by rerouting the connections to a set of borg nanoprobes then any software protection you have is irrelevant.  The ONLY defense would be a highly adaptive nanoprobe system inside the computers that can counter unknown, extremely adaptive, and agressive nanites.  Since they don't, Borg nanoprobes win.

Because obviously Star Wars computer defense systems are on the same level as ours and don't take nanoprobes into account even when Star Wars also has them.
If it's not stated it doesn't exist.  Don't you know how to play this game?
Also:
Han Solo and R2-D2 were able to hack into computer systems and override them.  Where's your defense?    Han Solo, by the way, opened a lock access panel and twisted wires.  See?  No defense.

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Secondly..
1. Yes.  Assimilate an officer with the codes to fly onto a star destroyer.  Take imperial shuttle or tie fighter.  Assimilate Star Destroyer Crew.
2. Yes they can.  Borg assimilation tubules can penetrate any metal or energy field with the exception of multi-phasic shields.
3. You'll have to site sources on this one.  You'd also have to site sources where nanites are used to counter other nanites that are attempting to assimilate the system.  Frankly, Star Trek has nanites and even they can't counter them very well.
4. Why would it take years?  Borg don't reverse engineer, they assimilate and learn from that.  What one drone knows, the whole collective knows.

1. Explain how they assimilate said officer.
2. No limits fallacy...again.  That's what Trekkies almost always do with the borg.
3. They created a nano virus that could kill people with certain genetic origin and spread it over a planet.
4. Which is yet another no limits fallacy.
1. The borg nanites enter the bloodstream and begin replicating using the body's own organic material.  The first to go is the blood cells which are converted into more efficient carriers of material for the Borg.  This is indicated by a greyness of the skin.  Next Borg devices are created inside the body which ultimately take control of the subject.  After about a minute the subject has no control over their body, has a subspace link with the borg collective, and is ready for full assimilation which includes limb amputation, ocular implantation, ect... inside a borg assimilation chamber.  But all the knowledge of the subject is available to the collective once the subspace link is activated.

2. ... You're giving me the no limits fallacy when that's all you've been doing?  Seriously?
3. This is a little more complex than that.  But you never provided any links to when mechanical nanites were ever used in Star Wars so I can only assume that they never were.  Or it's just a simple virus.
4. No that's the Borg.  They assimilate machines and know what they do.  They assimilate people and know everything they know.  That's the Borg.  If you want to call it a no limits fallacy then I'll have to call your entire SW power supply a no limits fallacy.  Especially because of the "limitless power" bit.

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Sure.
Transwarp would do the job.  The Borg have wonderful transwarp coils that allow travel of 70,000 lightyears in a few hours.


The borg do, but the Federation, Romulans and other such races without transwarp would literally be non factors because they wouldn't be able to even get to the Star Wars galaxy.
Well since Hypermatter and hyperspace doesn't exist in the Star Trek Galaxy you may find yourself in a bit of a problem coming over here.
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How exactly?  What methods?
I provided a link in my argument w/Trekkie.
I just read it.  It... well it's flawed on so many levels.
First off, Federation sensors CAN detect cloaked ships in close range, using tachyon sensor nets, residual anti-protons, ect...  Only one cloak was found to be perfect and that was Praetor Shinzon's ship the Scimitar.  Detection, however, requires a lot of intensive scanning or preparation and is therefore not effective unless you know it's there.

Secondly, the article talks about sensor technology and federation "cultists" (The validity of that site is... questionable but whatever).  It uses the example of Hoth specifically.  However several things need to be noted:
1. The probes had to land ON Hoth to scan it.  Orbit, it seems, was too far. 
2. The Imperial Fleet was only detected AFTER they exited Hyperspace hence why Vader was very unhappy with his Admiral.
3. The Falcon did not know that Alderan was now an asteroid field until after exiting Hyperspace.


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There is no planetary shield.  Thank you Trekky for the pic.
I debunked that.  If there was no planetary shield, the Rebels would simply have to bombard the base from space.
What part of surprise attack isn't clear?  Plus, the shield goes up, meaning that bombardment from orbit would hit the shield being emitted upwards.  It can only be destroyed from the ground, below where the shield is being emitted.


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Of course not.
I figure 10 minutes before someone notices the guards missing (missed check in), 5 minutes before the alert is sounded for reinforcements, and 5 minutes to get a shuttle preped and ready with Storm Trooper Reinforcements, and 10 minutes to land.

That's not what you said.  You said that it would take them 30 minutes to land.
Yes.  30 minutes to land on the planet.  I never said "30 minutes to land from orbit".


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Only so they could land close by (or at least appear to land close by).  Oddly enough, they didn't land where they should have.  Why the imperials weren't alerted immediately is an interesting question isn't it?

Actually, Vader knew that Luke was on the ship and therefore had the shield lowered (this is mentioned in both the movie and novel).
....
You don't even know your own movies?
1. Vader knew via the Force.
2. Vader let them go because the Emperor said so.  It was his plan to let the rebel fleet try to destroy the death star then ambush them by destroying it. 
"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."

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You seem to know nothing about a Tricorder.  It's not a lock-pick set.  It CAN send an electronic signal to the door to open it.  So no, it doesn't destroy my stance.


No limits fallacy...again.
I'm sorry but if you don't want to accept Star Trek episodes that clearly show the Tricorder being used to open doors, then I have the right to exclude books from your arguments.

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So the hull and systems are very weak?  Good to know.
Firstly this doesn't matter since it would take over 2 billion photon torpedos to get past the shields of a star destroyer, so the Federation isn't ever going to destroy a star destroyer or get to attack its hull.  Secondly the A wing hit the transpirasteel part of the bridge.
Unless we bypass your shields. 
And how do you know it hit the transpirasteel part of the bridge?  And what IS the transpirasteel part?

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By the way: The Enterprise-A survived a photon torpedo through it's saucer section without being destroyed. (after the shields were down).  If it can survive that kind of damage, why not a star destroyer?

The A wing hit the main reactor, causing it to explode.  Before you ask for proof, note that this is the ONLY possible explanation unless if the A wing detonated (which still supports my argument).  Even if the Executor were made out of glass (and somehow functional) or some other relatively very weak material, an object colliding with it would not have exploded at the rate that the Executor did.
The Main Reactor is in the bridge?  Unshielded beyond the ship's normal shields?  Wow... that's crappy design.  How about this explanation:  The explosion caused a feedback surge that the ship was unable to compensate for and it exploded.  However, the ship crashed into the Death Star, indicating that it didn't actually destroy the ship but damaged it enough to cause it to crash into the gravitational pull of the Death Star.  Or just fly into it, whatever the case is.
MAN... you really don't know your star wars movies.  I'm rather saddened.

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No, they're going to beam explosives onto the star destroyer and blow it up. 

Star destroyerS.  They'd have to get the shields down first, which is impossible as I have shown (aka >2 billion photon torpedos needed)
Why?  Since you can't say how shields works, you can't say that they're impenetrable to transporters.  You can't prove that transporters are blocked by SW shields.

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Also, Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, and Princess Leia and Obi Wan Kenobi managed to sneak around the Death Star without much of a problem.  Even failed to get hit once despite the massive amount of Storm Troopers on the station.  So if they did have to sneak past the guards and plant explosives, they could.  It's been proven.
No, because you're cleverly disguising the assumption that the security on a star destroyer =< the security on the Death Star.  In the novel Star Wars: Death Star a character commented on how pathetic BY STAR WARS STANDARDS the security on the death star was.  Therefore, the security on star destroyers are bound to be greater - as proven, since there is not a single instance in which even Jedi were able to infiltrate a star destroyer without being detected.
Wait that's it?  That's all your basing it on?  That's nothing but opinion.  You can't use the opinion of one character to determine the security standard of Empire ships.
Also, Jedi don't have beaming technology. 
And the only Star Destroyers left were the Remnant once the New Republic took control.  Though it is an interesting question... How did the rebels take control when the only person in power killed was Vader and the Emperor.  The rest of the Empire was still in control.  I'm sure there was a power vacuum but even so, the rebel fleet couldn't have taken Courescant easily.

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Rifles weaker?  How do you figure that?  You didn't even know they had them until this thread!
Bullshit; I knew they had them.  However, phaser rifles don't vaporize rocks like hand phasers do.
Since rifles were used only to battle troops, then the answer is simply that they haven't been shown but I'll give that to you.  The answer then is why is a rifle, which is bigger, less powerful? 

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One can not win against air yet air has little substance.  I also can't win if you say "Magic". 
Centerpoint station
Galaxy Gun
Stealth X's
Jedi and other Force users
>1 quadrillion gigawatt power generation
>200 gigaton firepower
several million planets

Counter each of these.
Ok.
I don't know what Centerpoint Station is, Galaxy Gun, Stealth X's are.
Jedi and other Force users can be defeated by diplomacy.  Federation diplomats would reach a peace agreement and that would end that.
>1 quadrillion gigawatt power generation is not likely to be accurate. But even if it is, that means that hitting a power conduit would vaporize the whole ship.  Tell me, how does that kind of raw power get transferred from the reactor to the ship?

>200 gigaton firepower is not accurate.
Take note: in Empire Strikes back, the Star Destroyer pursuing the Falcon into the Asteroid field had issues with said asteroids.  Had they really had that kind of firepower, the field would have been cleared in a matter of hours and they could have stayed in said asteroid field indefinitely.  Since they did not and they only shot at small asteroids (why did they do that anyway if their shields were invulnerable to physical attacks?) it can only be concluded that the ship does not have 200 gigatons worth of firepower.

As for Several Million planets, Well, the rebel alliance was able to take over the galaxy from the Empire by blowing up one Death Star and killing the leader.  If that's all it takes then defeating those planets shouldn't be any problem.


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On they do, if they're real or is sustainable by looking at canon.  Like, if the turbolasers are some kind of plasma, then how can they be so powerful?  Plasma does have an upper limit to how much energy it can contain. 
You're arguing on the shaky ground of questioning canon.  Turbolasers are plasma, but their exact nature isn't known.  They could be modified plasma, which they probably are. 
....
Do you know what plasma is? 

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So basically you don't know how those work in the SW world.  How, then, can you say they're effective against Star Trek Shields?  For all you know the energy could simply bounce back or be deflected around the shield bubble entirely.  And phaser or even disruptor technology could be easily used to penetrate Star Wars shields.  You can't simply say "it hurts/protects therefore it works for everything".  And until you tell me exactly how they work and on what scientific principal, you have no argument.

Counter question: How do Star Trek shields work?  And please give me a more detailed response than "frequencies!".
Sure.
A shield bubble is generated by emitting gravitons in a localized distortion field.  Since gravity affects anything, the force of impact or energy is deflected.  However, the amount of energy deflected must be used to deflect it.  But that's basic physics.  Not all energy is deflected though.  The graviton generators of the shield emitters can only deflect so much energy or force.
Now, the Federation has the ability to generate a gravitational field of any strength within a localized area.  We see this via gravametric plating, which can be disabled by deck or section and is therefore independent of the whole ship.
Frequencies come into play when you fire weapons.  A shield's frequency and the ship's weapons are matched to ensure that weapons can pass through the shields.  You can also modulate the shields to provide better protection against certain energy types.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shields

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Of course.
Transporters reduce matter to quarks.  Now unless the shields are designed to prohibit quarks from passing through then yes they could.

Let's assume that shields can't (which hasn't been proven either way). 

They'd be detected (again; Jedi can't infiltrate star destroyers without being detected, so Federation troops certainly can't).  Bam!  They get trapped by a ray shield from ROTS.  They're screwed.
Of course they can't, they have to board the ship.  That's very obvious.  However, if a Jedi was already on the ship, could they be found?  Since the Droid Ship in the first movie failed to detect the location of the Jedi once they had escaped the conference room, I would think the answer is no.
Star Trek ships, however, are capable of locating an intruder instantly and with pin-point accuracy using internal sensors.

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Yes it does actually.  If you can't say how they work, how can you say they'll be effective against Star Trek Tech?

This is a rather desperate argument of you, but if you insist:

Photon torpedos are physical projectiles, and therefore can be stopped by shields.
Phasers are too short ranged and weak to actually hurt a star destroyer's hull, but even if they weren't, they envolve "nadion", which is radiation, which Star Wars shields can stop.
You mean Involve?
And Nadion is a PARTICLE!
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nadion
Your ignorance is astonishing.  No wonder you think Star Wars is so superior: you don't know anything else.

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So a strong magnetic field will deflect all turbolasers?  Great.  Heck, if you create a magnetic field that disrupts the magnetic container of the turbo laser blast, you could literally explode it long before it reaches you.


Except that you don't know that the containment field is magnetic.
Oh but I do.
It's Plasma.  Plasma is highly ionized matter.  It can be controlled and contained using magnetic fields since the electrical charges can be moved via magnetic fields.  Especially moving ones.  See Electrical Generators.

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Ummm... you want me to counter a fictional technology with actual science?  Really?

Why don't you actually answer the post instead of focusing on only the first line of it?
Because you wanted me to use non-technobabble which is impossible since everything we're talking about IS technobabble.  Star Wars Turbolasers, shields, hypermatter reactors... all of it is technobabble.  If I was going to use real science to debunk it I'd say that Hypermatter doesn't exist therefore your argument fails.
Also..

Do you know what a 10,000g turn is?  Traveling at 84km/h they'd have to make a 20m radius turn.  IF they had to do that, do you know how fast their reaction times would have to be?  Well I'll tell you that for simple tasks, the human response time is about 250ms.  This is not enough time to fly through the Death Star maintenance tunnel and make surprise turns of 20m. 

Also, the maximum acceleration is only 3,700g.  So no, the ship is not doing 10,000g turns.  It would likely rip itself apart if it tried.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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EnglshGentleman

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 9548
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #126 on: October 30, 2010, 01:12:56 AM »
This guy is such a fail. He is trying to claim ships in Star Wars can do stuff then in the movies they are not even close to being able to do.

Based on the TNG "Q Who?" damage effects, the initial blast from the E-D discharged some 2.6 petajoules of energy, and had a total effective yield thanks to the NDF of ~3,419 petajoules, bare minimum. This is assuming an average starship density of 1,913kg/m^3, and a hull vaporization energy requirement of 35 MJ/m^3. Given that in "I, Borg" a Borg scout ship similar to the 10m cube that we see crashed on a planet's surface is said to have a mass of ~2.5 million metric tons (giving us an average hull density of 2,500,000 kg/m^3), and that TNG-era hull vaporization levels for Fed ships could easily be in the range of 100MJ/m^3 or greater, much higher blast yields can easily be drawn from this.

Even assuming that most of the Borg scout ship's mass comes from its FTL drives (we know Fed warp coils are exceedingly dense, and constitute a significant fraction of the ship's total mass (15% to over 25%, depending on the ship)), and assuming an average hull density of 20,000 kg/m^3, with a Borg hull vaporization energy requirement of 120MJ/m^3, the 38,305.66 m^3 hole blown in the Cube by the phaser beam alone, before the NDF takes over, would have required:

38,305.66 m^3 * 20,000 kg/m^3 = 766,113,200 kg

766,113,200 kg * 120MJ/m^3 = 91,933,584,000 MJ

Or, 91.93 petajoules. The full size of the hole is 1,315 times greater than the initial hole bored by the phaser beam itself, giving a total effective yield of 120,887.95 petajoules, equivalent to a 28.89 gigaton bomb releasing 100% of its energy into the Borg ship's hull. The most powerful shot observed by a Galaxy class is roughly twice this figure, or 183.86 PJ raw yield, and 241,775.9 PJ NDF effective yield.

Considering that the Borg were already adapting to the NDF effect even as the E-D was firing (subsequent comparable-yield blasts yielded increasingly smaller holes), and that the Borg probably had some pretty powerful passive defenses active, if nothing other than a Structural Integrity Field, the raw effective yield increase of the NDF effect against completely unprotected matter could easily be one or more orders of magnitude greater. In fact, given that TOS-era ships, which appear to be more dense on average than TNG-era ships but use more or less the same raw materials, have hull resistance figures in the single-digit MJ/kg range, while TNG-era ships have hull resistance figures easily in the 100+ MJ/kg range, apparently thanks to the advent of the Structural Integrity Field (we get no mention of this in TOS and the TOS movies, yet frequent mention in TNG, vastly improved spaceframe endurances in TNG, and the knowledge that several new techs were implemented around the turn of the 24th Century points to the advent of the SIF around that time, and a massive increase in spaceframe endurance thanks to it), the effective yield increase of the phaser/disruptor NDF effect against unprotected/unhardened matter could easily be 100 times greater than what we see demonstrated in "Q Who?", especially if you consider the likelihood that starship spaceframes and armor implement phaser-resistant materials.

That would turn the E-D's most powerful observed shot of 183.86 PJ (assuming the more likely higher hull density and vaporization figures) into the equivalent of a 24,177,590 PJ shot quite easily. That is roughly equivalent to the energy release of a 5,778,583 megaton, or 5.78 teraton bomb, except that nearly 100% of that energy would be delivered to the target, and that figure could be increase by a couple factors without much stretching at all.

This still fits with a megaton-range photon torpedo because of the NDF resistance built into all modern starships, both with phaser-resistant spaceframe materials, the SIF, etc. The SIF itself probably takes care of most of the NDF effect, though phaser-resistant materials undoubtdly play a huge role as well, especially considering that those are the heaviest shots of the Federation's biggest and most powerful battleship, equipped with some of the biggest guns in this half of the galaxy, so most lighter vessels wouldn't be able to match that phaser firepower.

In planetary bombardments, phasers and disruptors are the truly terrifying weapons, far more powerful against an unprotected planet than a photon torpedo. Against shields and hulls not hardened against the NDF effect (which apparently disrupts gluons, the force-carrier boson of the nuclear strong force, which binds atoms together and presumably has a disruptive effect on all bosuns), phasers and disruptors would be equally terrifying weapons.

Using the official canon (and completely disregarded biased pieces of wankery such as the AotC ICS book - Curtis Saxton, one of the primary authors, was an active VS debater well before he wrote the ICS books, and consulted with Mike Wong and other denizens and allies of SDN while writing it. It is the epitome of a biased work), Star Wars weapons have routinely demonstrated energy yields in the high megajoule to low gigajoule range for starfighter weapons, and high gigajoule to low terajoule range for starship weaponry, with mid-terajoule/low-kiloton range torpedoes being observed in use by fighters. There is no observed non-DET effects in most Wars weaponry, though some beam weapons do, most notably both Death Star superlasers (even if there are non-DET effects from Wars weapons, the effective yields are still in the high megajoule to low gigajoule range for starfighter weaponry, and high gigajoule to low terajoule range for starship weaponry, with mid-terajoule/low-kiloton range starfighter missiles observed as being effective against capital ships). We occasionally see superweapons that exceed this destructive range (Death Stars being obvious, the 'sonic charges' used by Jango Fett in AotC), but these are rarely observed, especially in general starship combat.

Even without the exajoule/teraton range effective yields granted by phaser/disruptor NDF effects, Trek weaponry has routinely demonstrated vastly superior energy yields over Wars, by three or four orders of magnitude. Add in the NDF effective yield increase as Wars ships have no reason to have been hardened against it, and have given no indication of having something like an SIF (to my knowledge), and Trek destroyers could probably one-shot most Wars ships. Trek capital ships could probably completely vaporize most Wars ships with one shot.


Furthermore, Wars has demonstrated absolutely horrendous weapons ranges and targeting accuracy, routinely engaging at single-digit kilometer ranges, or just pulling alongside the enemy vessel, parking, and having at each other. Wars weapons placements also appear to be designed expressly for such broadside engagements. Maximum ranges have routinely been very limited, to dozens of kilometers at best against large capital ships (less than a kilometer against lone fighters flying in a straight line, in some cases (ANH)), with nothing over a hundred kilometers having been observed. Accuracy at anything over point-blank range broadsides is poor to atrocious, or worse.

Trek ships have demonstrated high accuracy of beam weapons at ranges of several thousand to two hundred thousand kilometers, with precision accuracy being routinely observed at ranges of thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers. Torpedoes have demonstrated ranges of hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers when fired at sublight speeds, and billions of kilometers in warp-speed engagements. Trek ships can also land precision hits on stationary or sublight-only targets while traveling at warp speeds.

Trek ships can hit Wars ships with orders of magnitude more firepower from far beyond Wars weapons ranges, and probably well beyond the range that Wars ships could even detect them. Even if they closed to Wars weapons ranges, Trek ships are vastly more maneuverable, with vastly superior sublight acceleration (best observed in Wars is ~210 m/s^2, while Trek routinely demonstrates 1-4,000 m/s^2, with some instances going as high as 4,000 km/s^2). Trek ships would fly circles around Wars ships, making themselves extremely difficult targets, while they could land precision fire against Wars ships with impunity.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 01:16:12 AM by EnglshGentleman »

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EnglshGentleman

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 9548
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #127 on: October 30, 2010, 01:14:34 AM »
Also,

Well, first of all, you CANNOT use the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections book as any kind of reliable source for anything except the external-view pictures of the ships seen in the films. One of the main authors of the AotC:ICS book, Curtis Saxton, was a fairly active debater in the "VS debates" between Star Trek and Star Wars before writing the ICS book, a decidedly pro-Wars debater, and he consulted with Mike Wong and other denizens and allies of StarDestroyer.Net while writing it. The AotC:ICS book is the epitome of a biased work, with figures deliberately written in to be so ridiculously high as to be beyond hope of being surpassed by Star Trek. The 200 gigaton figure for the light guns of an Acclamator class troop transport are utterly absurd and fallacious. We never see anything anywhere near that kind of firepower from ANYTHING in Star Wars with the sole exception of the Death Star superlaser.

The weapons in the films and CGI episodes themselves, the official canon, show weapons yields much, much lower. Starfighter laser and blaster cannons are in the high megajoule range (800-900 megajoules), and maybe into the low single-digit gigajoule range per shot, at best. Capital ship weapons are in the high gigajoule (several hundred GJ) to low terajoule (single-digit to double-digit TJ) range per shot. Starfighter-carried warheads are in the low (20-50) kiloton range.

copypasta btw, but nonetheless true.

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berny_74

  • 1786
  • The IceWall! Beat that
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2010, 07:00:26 AM »
I have to agree with EnglshGentleman though it pains me....  It really pains me.

From the movies (which I consider ubercannon over books based on movies) Star Trek indeed is more powerfull than Star Wars.  Sorry RoundEarthGuy - in this case a FlatEearther has you beaten.  At least it is for some fictional series as they still cannot prove the Earth is Flat.

Berny
Still tired.
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #129 on: October 30, 2010, 07:52:10 AM »

Your assumption is that Borg reverse engineer stuff.  They don't, they assimilate.  But they're also have the brain power of a few trillion minds working simultaneously.  They're capable of adapting to enemy weapons fire after only a few shots.  

Prove that assimilation has no limits.  Species 8472 says otherwise.

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If it's not stated it doesn't exist.  Don't you know how to play this game?
Also:
Han Solo and R2-D2 were able to hack into computer systems and override them.  Where's your defense?    Han Solo, by the way, opened a lock access panel and twisted wires.  See?  No defense.

Star Wars has nanotechnology, and where's your example.

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1. The borg nanites enter the bloodstream and begin replicating using the body's own organic material.  The first to go is the blood cells which are converted into more efficient carriers of material for the Borg.  This is indicated by a greyness of the skin.  Next Borg devices are created inside the body which ultimately take control of the subject.  After about a minute the subject has no control over their body, has a subspace link with the borg collective, and is ready for full assimilation which includes limb amputation, ocular implantation, ect... inside a borg assimilation chamber.  But all the knowledge of the subject is available to the collective once the subspace link is activated.

2. ... You're giving me the no limits fallacy when that's all you've been doing?  Seriously?
3. This is a little more complex than that.  But you never provided any links to when mechanical nanites were ever used in Star Wars so I can only assume that they never were.  Or it's just a simple virus.
4. No that's the Borg.  They assimilate machines and know what they do.  They assimilate people and know everything they know.  That's the Borg.  If you want to call it a no limits fallacy then I'll have to call your entire SW power supply a no limits fallacy.  Especially because of the "limitless power" bit.


1. I wasn't looking for details like that, I was looking for HOW they would reach said officer that stupidly decides to for some reason go to a borg cube undefended.
2. When have I used a no limits fallacy?
3. Actually, following the Star Trek idea of "zomg organic > mechanical!!!!", engineering a nano virus based on DNA would be more complex than engineering a nano virus to take over a computer system.
4. I didn't claim that Star Wars had unlimited energy/power.  On the contrary, I stated finite numbers to their power generation capabilities.

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Well since Hypermatter and hyperspace doesn't exist in the Star Trek Galaxy you may find yourself in a bit of a problem coming over here.

This is a rather foolish argument.  Who's to say that hyperspace and hypermatter don't exist in Star Trek?  What if they simply didn't discover it?

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I just read it.  It... well it's flawed on so many levels.
First off, Federation sensors CAN detect cloaked ships in close range, using tachyon sensor nets, residual anti-protons, ect...  Only one cloak was found to be perfect and that was Praetor Shinzon's ship the Scimitar.  Detection, however, requires a lot of intensive scanning or preparation and is therefore not effective unless you know it's there.

One the Defiant beams the stormtroopers up, the surrounding forces would be aware that there's a cloaked ship in the vicinity.

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Secondly, the article talks about sensor technology and federation "cultists" (The validity of that site is... questionable but whatever).  It uses the example of Hoth specifically.  However several things need to be noted:
1. The probes had to land ON Hoth to scan it.  Orbit, it seems, was too far.  
2. The Imperial Fleet was only detected AFTER they exited Hyperspace hence why Vader was very unhappy with his Admiral.
3. The Falcon did not know that Alderan was now an asteroid field until after exiting Hyperspace.


I'm sorry, but I'm not following what you're trying to say.


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What part of surprise attack isn't clear?  Plus, the shield goes up, meaning that bombardment from orbit would hit the shield being emitted upwards.  It can only be destroyed from the ground, below where the shield is being emitted.


Then you're admitting that transportors would indeed have to pass through the shield since turbolaser bombardment would.


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Yes.  30 minutes to land on the planet.  I never said "30 minutes to land from orbit".


Fair enough then, although 30 minutes is still unreasonably long, especially given that, if you beam the stormtroopers up, they'll still be able to combat the Federation troops.

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....
You don't even know your own movies?
1. Vader knew via the Force.
2. Vader let them go because the Emperor said so.  It was his plan to let the rebel fleet try to destroy the death star then ambush them by destroying it.  
"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."


1. Thanks for admitting my point.  I wasn't arguing HOW Vader knew, only that he did.
2. See above.

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I'm sorry but if you don't want to accept Star Trek episodes that clearly show the Tricorder being used to open doors, then I have the right to exclude books from your arguments.

You still haven't proven that they can open Star Wars doors, but fair enough, since that would be too difficult for anyone to prove.  


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Unless we bypass your shields.  
And how do you know it hit the transpirasteel part of the bridge?  And what IS the transpirasteel part?

How do you bypass Star Wars shields that are several orders of magnitude beyond Star Trek's shields?
It's durasteel that's transparent.  

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The Main Reactor is in the bridge?  Unshielded beyond the ship's normal shields?  Wow... that's crappy design.  How about this explanation:  The explosion caused a feedback surge that the ship was unable to compensate for and it exploded.  However, the ship crashed into the Death Star, indicating that it didn't actually destroy the ship but damaged it enough to cause it to crash into the gravitational pull of the Death Star.  Or just fly into it, whatever the case is.
MAN... you really don't know your star wars movies.  I'm rather saddened.

I'll admit that star destroyers have some pretty crappy design flaws.  However, the A wing had to have caused some sort of chain explosion, because again, it wouldn't have been able to cause that big of an explosion even if the Executor were made out of glass.

Also, this is still not that relevant since Star Trek weapons can't get past Star Wars shields.

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Why?  Since you can't say how shields works, you can't say that they're impenetrable to transporters.  You can't prove that transporters are blocked by SW shields.

Iirc transporters break the subject down into small particles and moves the particles to a location and then reassembles them.  If Star Trek shields can stop them, Star Wars shields can too.

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Wait that's it?  That's all your basing it on?  That's nothing but opinion.  You can't use the opinion of one character to determine the security standard of Empire ships.
Also, Jedi don't have beaming technology.  
And the only Star Destroyers left were the Remnant once the New Republic took control.  Though it is an interesting question... How did the rebels take control when the only person in power killed was Vader and the Emperor.  The rest of the Empire was still in control.  I'm sure there was a power vacuum but even so, the rebel fleet couldn't have taken Courescant easily.

That one character was actually sneaking around on the Death Star and had first hand experience and commented on it.  That's pretty reliable, especially since the events he went through match his thinking.
Jedi don't have beaming technology, but they can short circuit security cameras and other tricks.
The Rebels took control after a long war that still continued after Sidious died, although the Empire fractured into warring warlord states.

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Since rifles were used only to battle troops, then the answer is simply that they haven't been shown but I'll give that to you.  The answer then is why is a rifle, which is bigger, less powerful?  

The rifles have a faster rate of fire, a longer range, and sights.  However, blaster rifles have all of these.  Unless if either of us can provide a relevant advantage either one has, they can be considered to be equal.

Which then brings in Star War's advanced armor, armored vehicles, walkers, gernades, heavy portable weaponry, E webs, artillery and other combined arms support weapons that Star Trek is suspiciously lacking in.

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Ok.
I don't know what Centerpoint Station is, Galaxy Gun, Stealth X's are.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

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Jedi and other Force users can be defeated by diplomacy.  Federation diplomats would reach a peace agreement and that would end that.

By that logic I could say that the borg and the Federation wouldn't cooperate.

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>1 quadrillion gigawatt power generation is not likely to be accurate. But even if it is, that means that hitting a power conduit would vaporize the whole ship.  Tell me, how does that kind of raw power get transferred from the reactor to the ship?

Through advanced technology that is beyond our understanding.  If it were within our understanding, we might have already had it, wouldn't we?

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>200 gigaton firepower is not accurate.
Take note: in Empire Strikes back, the Star Destroyer pursuing the Falcon into the Asteroid field had issues with said asteroids.  Had they really had that kind of firepower, the field would have been cleared in a matter of hours and they could have stayed in said asteroid field indefinitely.  Since they did not and they only shot at small asteroids (why did they do that anyway if their shields were invulnerable to physical attacks?) it can only be concluded that the ship does not have 200 gigatons worth of firepower.

The size of the asteroid field wasn't mentioned, and the star destroyers were chasing the Falcon.  Hitting every asteroid, including ones that weren't a threat, would be a waste of time.

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As for Several Million planets, Well, the rebel alliance was able to take over the galaxy from the Empire by blowing up one Death Star and killing the leader.  If that's all it takes then defeating those planets shouldn't be any problem.

The thing is that we aren't only talking about the Empire.  There's also many other Star Wars factions, each with their own unique advantages.  Many are democratic, meaning that killing the leader won't cause some civil war that crippled the Empire.

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....
Do you know what plasma is?  

Yes, I do.

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Sure.
A shield bubble is generated by emitting gravitons in a localized distortion field.  Since gravity affects anything, the force of impact or energy is deflected.  However, the amount of energy deflected must be used to deflect it.  But that's basic physics.  Not all energy is deflected though.  The graviton generators of the shield emitters can only deflect so much energy or force.
Now, the Federation has the ability to generate a gravitational field of any strength within a localized area.  We see this via gravametric plating, which can be disabled by deck or section and is therefore independent of the whole ship.
Frequencies come into play when you fire weapons.  A shield's frequency and the ship's weapons are matched to ensure that weapons can pass through the shields.  You can also modulate the shields to provide better protection against certain energy types.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shields

You clearly don't accept the idea of plasma for turbolasers, yet you accept the ability of gravitons, which haven't been proven to exist AND triggers gravity, the weakest of the four fundamental interactions of nature, to be able to stop antimatter explosions?

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Of course they can't, they have to board the ship.  That's very obvious.  However, if a Jedi was already on the ship, could they be found?  Since the Droid Ship in the first movie failed to detect the location of the Jedi once they had escaped the conference room, I would think the answer is no.
Star Trek ships, however, are capable of locating an intruder instantly and with pin-point accuracy using internal sensors.

That's because Jedi have been shown to be able to move extremely fast and fool security cameras.  Federation troops can't do any of these.

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You mean Involve?
And Nadion is a PARTICLE!
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nadion
Your ignorance is astonishing.  No wonder you think Star Wars is so superior: you don't know anything else.


My bad, a wording error.  Nadion RADIATION, is what is often used in Star Trek, and radiation is essentially fast moving particles.  Particles can indeed be stopped by shields.

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Oh but I do.
It's Plasma.  Plasma is highly ionized matter.  It can be controlled and contained using magnetic fields since the electrical charges can be moved via magnetic fields.  Especially moving ones.  See Electrical Generators.

If Star Wars used magnetic fields to control their plasma, why can't they block said plasma using magnetic fields?   It seems logical to assume that they either use highly advanced magnetic technology that neither we nor the Federation understands or they use another containment system that we don't know about.

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Because you wanted me to use non-technobabble which is impossible since everything we're talking about IS technobabble.  Star Wars Turbolasers, shields, hypermatter reactors... all of it is technobabble.  If I was going to use real science to debunk it I'd say that Hypermatter doesn't exist therefore your argument fails.
Also..

Do you know what a 10,000g turn is?  Traveling at 84km/h they'd have to make a 20m radius turn.  IF they had to do that, do you know how fast their reaction times would have to be?  Well I'll tell you that for simple tasks, the human response time is about 250ms.  This is not enough time to fly through the Death Star maintenance tunnel and make surprise turns of 20m.  

Also, the maximum acceleration is only 3,700g.  So no, the ship is not doing 10,000g turns.  It would likely rip itself apart if it tried.


Star Wars missiles have been shown to make >10,000 g turns.  Star Trek starfighters can't outrun them, can't withstand and can't disrupt them.  Unless if they outmaneuver them, what else can they do?











Also, there's still the fact that this wouldn't matter.  You agreed to the two galaxies side by side set up, in which case the Federation wouldn't be able to even reach Endor with their warp drive.  This therefore makes every race except for the borg and species 8472 non factors due to their lack of hyperdrive or transwarp.

Therefore, it's basically all of Star Wars vs the borg and species 8472.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 08:43:02 AM by RoundEarthGuy »

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #130 on: October 30, 2010, 08:14:27 AM »
This guy is such a fail. He is trying to claim ships in Star Wars can do stuff then in the movies they are not even close to being able to do.

Like?

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Based on the TNG "Q Who?" damage effects, the initial blast from the E-D discharged some 2.6 petajoules of energy, and had a total effective yield thanks to the NDF of ~3,419 petajoules, bare minimum. This is assuming an average starship density of 1,913kg/m^3, and a hull vaporization energy requirement of 35 MJ/m^3. Given that in "I, Borg" a Borg scout ship similar to the 10m cube that we see crashed on a planet's surface is said to have a mass of ~2.5 million metric tons (giving us an average hull density of 2,500,000 kg/m^3), and that TNG-era hull vaporization levels for Fed ships could easily be in the range of 100MJ/m^3 or greater, much higher blast yields can easily be drawn from this.

Even assuming that most of the Borg scout ship's mass comes from its FTL drives (we know Fed warp coils are exceedingly dense, and constitute a significant fraction of the ship's total mass (15% to over 25%, depending on the ship)), and assuming an average hull density of 20,000 kg/m^3, with a Borg hull vaporization energy requirement of 120MJ/m^3, the 38,305.66 m^3 hole blown in the Cube by the phaser beam alone, before the NDF takes over, would have required:

38,305.66 m^3 * 20,000 kg/m^3 = 766,113,200 kg

766,113,200 kg * 120MJ/m^3 = 91,933,584,000 MJ

Or, 91.93 petajoules. The full size of the hole is 1,315 times greater than the initial hole bored by the phaser beam itself, giving a total effective yield of 120,887.95 petajoules, equivalent to a 28.89 gigaton bomb releasing 100% of its energy into the Borg ship's hull. The most powerful shot observed by a Galaxy class is roughly twice this figure, or 183.86 PJ raw yield, and 241,775.9 PJ NDF effective yield.

Considering that the Borg were already adapting to the NDF effect even as the E-D was firing (subsequent comparable-yield blasts yielded increasingly smaller holes), and that the Borg probably had some pretty powerful passive defenses active, if nothing other than a Structural Integrity Field, the raw effective yield increase of the NDF effect against completely unprotected matter could easily be one or more orders of magnitude greater. In fact, given that TOS-era ships, which appear to be more dense on average than TNG-era ships but use more or less the same raw materials, have hull resistance figures in the single-digit MJ/kg range, while TNG-era ships have hull resistance figures easily in the 100+ MJ/kg range, apparently thanks to the advent of the Structural Integrity Field (we get no mention of this in TOS and the TOS movies, yet frequent mention in TNG, vastly improved spaceframe endurances in TNG, and the knowledge that several new techs were implemented around the turn of the 24th Century points to the advent of the SIF around that time, and a massive increase in spaceframe endurance thanks to it), the effective yield increase of the phaser/disruptor NDF effect against unprotected/unhardened matter could easily be 100 times greater than what we see demonstrated in "Q Who?", especially if you consider the likelihood that starship spaceframes and armor implement phaser-resistant materials.

That would turn the E-D's most powerful observed shot of 183.86 PJ (assuming the more likely higher hull density and vaporization figures) into the equivalent of a 24,177,590 PJ shot quite easily. That is roughly equivalent to the energy release of a 5,778,583 megaton, or 5.78 teraton bomb, except that nearly 100% of that energy would be delivered to the target, and that figure could be increase by a couple factors without much stretching at all.

This still fits with a megaton-range photon torpedo because of the NDF resistance built into all modern starships, both with phaser-resistant spaceframe materials, the SIF, etc. The SIF itself probably takes care of most of the NDF effect, though phaser-resistant materials undoubtdly play a huge role as well, especially considering that those are the heaviest shots of the Federation's biggest and most powerful battleship, equipped with some of the biggest guns in this half of the galaxy, so most lighter vessels wouldn't be able to match that phaser firepower.


I would ask of you to show me a link to these damage effects that you claim of.  

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In planetary bombardments, phasers and disruptors are the truly terrifying weapons, far more powerful against an unprotected planet than a photon torpedo. Against shields and hulls not hardened against the NDF effect (which apparently disrupts gluons, the force-carrier boson of the nuclear strong force, which binds atoms together and presumably has a disruptive effect on all bosuns), phasers and disruptors would be equally terrifying weapons.


Using the official canon (and completely disregarded biased pieces of wankery such as the AotC ICS book - Curtis Saxton, one of the primary authors, was an active VS debater well before he wrote the ICS books, and consulted with Mike Wong and other denizens and allies of SDN while writing it. It is the epitome of a biased work), Star Wars weapons have routinely demonstrated energy yields in the high megajoule to low gigajoule range for starfighter weapons, and high gigajoule to low terajoule range for starship weaponry, with mid-terajoule/low-kiloton range torpedoes being observed in use by fighters. There is no observed non-DET effects in most Wars weaponry, though some beam weapons do, most notably both Death Star superlasers (even if there are non-DET effects from Wars weapons, the effective yields are still in the high megajoule to low gigajoule range for starfighter weaponry, and high gigajoule to low terajoule range for starship weaponry, with mid-terajoule/low-kiloton range starfighter missiles observed as being effective against capital ships). We occasionally see superweapons that exceed this destructive range (Death Stars being obvious, the 'sonic charges' used by Jango Fett in AotC), but these are rarely observed, especially in general starship combat.


No, that's not true.  For one, the Star Wars: ICS is canon, whether you like it or not.  Secondly, can you provide examples of this?  In the novel Star Wars: Millennium Falcon a bomb small enough to be carried on the Millennium Falcon was stated to have an explosion radius of over 100,000 km.

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Even without the exajoule/teraton range effective yields granted by phaser/disruptor NDF effects, Trek weaponry has routinely demonstrated vastly superior energy yields over Wars, by three or four orders of magnitude. Add in the NDF effective yield increase as Wars ships have no reason to have been hardened against it, and have given no indication of having something like an SIF (to my knowledge), and Trek destroyers could probably one-shot most Wars ships. Trek capital ships could probably completely vaporize most Wars ships with one shot.

No, because Star Trek has never shown 200 gigaton weaponry.  Like it or not that's canon.

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Furthermore, Wars has demonstrated absolutely horrendous weapons ranges and targeting accuracy, routinely engaging at single-digit kilometer ranges, or just pulling alongside the enemy vessel, parking, and having at each other. Wars weapons placements also appear to be designed expressly for such broadside engagements. Maximum ranges have routinely been very limited, to dozens of kilometers at best against large capital ships (less than a kilometer against lone fighters flying in a straight line, in some cases (ANH)), with nothing over a hundred kilometers having been observed. Accuracy at anything over point-blank range broadsides is poor to atrocious, or worse.


In some borg battles Federation ships had to go within a few kilometers to hit a GIANT borg cube that wasn't maneuvering at any significant relative speed.

Also, in the battle of Endor Star Wars ships were indeed fighting at several thousand kilometer ranges.

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Trek ships have demonstrated high accuracy of beam weapons at ranges of several thousand to two hundred thousand kilometers, with precision accuracy being routinely observed at ranges of thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers.

Which doesn't explain why they had to move within a few kilometers to hit a borg cube.

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Torpedoes have demonstrated ranges of hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers when fired at sublight speeds, and billions of kilometers in warp-speed engagements. Trek ships can also land precision hits on stationary or sublight-only targets while traveling at warp speeds.  

And occasionally a few kilometers of range when fighting borg cubes.

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Trek ships can hit Wars ships with orders of magnitude more firepower from far beyond Wars weapons ranges, and probably well beyond the range that Wars ships could even detect them. Even if they closed to Wars weapons ranges, Trek ships are vastly more maneuverable, with vastly superior sublight acceleration (best observed in Wars is ~210 m/s^2, while Trek routinely demonstrates 1-4,000 m/s^2, with some instances going as high as 4,000 km/s^2). Trek ships would fly circles around Wars ships, making themselves extremely difficult targets, while they could land precision fire against Wars ships with impunity.

No, they couldn't.  For one, Federation warp is too slow to even allow them to actually attack Star Wars.  Also, Star Wars starfighters have a stated speed of >mach 10, so your speed calculations are inaccurate.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #131 on: October 30, 2010, 11:28:09 AM »
Star Wars ICS doesn't not constitute as canon because,

1) The figures were made in it purely as a cheap shot from a person that wanted to win the Star Wars/Star Trek debate.
2) The figures in it are completely contradictory to what we see in the movies.

You never see the fighters have any extreme amount of maneuverability, and the fact that they used an asteroid field as cover shows just that, it actually is good cover. The star destroyers is they had 200 gigaton cannons could have not only vaporized that asteroids, but shot straight through them to the millennium falcon. Also, the Death Star would then be completely useless, as one of these lasers could easily destroy a planet.

If the creators of Star Trek decided to make a single episode where some random person had a 500 trillion gigaton phaser and blew up a ship with it, would you concede that Star Trek would be victorious, or would you say that it is bullshit and they did it just to win the Star Wars/Star Trek debate?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #132 on: October 30, 2010, 11:36:00 AM »
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Which doesn't explain why they had to move within a few kilometers to hit a borg cube.

You know why they had to get so close?


Because this:


is more exciting to watch than this:


That's it! It doesn't matter whether they have weapons which can shoot across star systems, the only thing that matters is the spectacle and the narrative!

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #133 on: October 30, 2010, 04:02:42 PM »
I have a question.

Who gives a shit? Seriously, these numbers are all made up. It doesn't matter if a ship is 500 meters away or a thousand kilometers away. These numbers mean nothing. It's technobabble. The models that you say on the television screen do not fit these numbers. Especially Star Wars, the ships fly at close range no matter what they say on screen.

But really, who gives two shits since it doesn't matter? The numbers are not realistic and weren't meant to be. They are dialogue filler technobabble.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2010, 04:17:38 PM »
Star Wars ICS doesn't not constitute as canon because,

1) The figures were made in it purely as a cheap shot from a person that wanted to win the Star Wars/Star Trek debate.
2) The figures in it are completely contradictory to what we see in the movies.


1. Still canon.
2. This is indeed a valid point...if it were true.  However, you still haven't given an example.

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You never see the fighters have any extreme amount of maneuverability, and the fact that they used an asteroid field as cover shows just that, it actually is good cover.

Yeah...and?  That asteroid field was pretty darn hazardous.

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The star destroyers is they had 200 gigaton cannons could have not only vaporized that asteroids, but shot straight through them to the millennium falcon. Also, the Death Star would then be completely useless, as one of these lasers could easily destroy a planet.

No, actually, that's not true.  A 200 gigaton canon would not even come close to destroying an Earth sized planet.  The asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs was in the teratons, and we're still here.

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If the creators of Star Trek decided to make a single episode where some random person had a 500 trillion gigaton phaser and blew up a ship with it, would you concede that Star Trek would be victorious, or would you say that it is bullshit and they did it just to win the Star Wars/Star Trek debate?

Obviously that phaser wouldn't have been standard fare in the Federation, since other episodes shows them using phasers far less powerful than that.  Therefore, that phaser would be some sort of superweapon that's still weaker than Star Wars superweapons.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2010, 06:37:22 PM »
Do you know what? Fine. Star Wars wins. Whatever. It matters in no way.

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Lorddave

  • 18295
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2010, 07:27:14 PM »
Prove that assimilation has no limits.  Species 8472 says otherwise.
Species 8472 (later renamed the Undine in Star Trek Online) were killed using Borg nanoprobes.  Borg assimilate but the Undine have such a complex and advanced biological system that they can defend against borg nanites.  That is until the nanites were modified to bypass the Undine biological defenses.  See Voyager: Scorpion Part I and II

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Star Wars has nanotechnology, and where's your example.
Example of what?  I can't give you an example of Star Wars nano-tech.  That's YOUR job.

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1. I wasn't looking for details like that, I was looking for HOW they would reach said officer that stupidly decides to for some reason go to a borg cube undefended.
2. When have I used a no limits fallacy?
3. Actually, following the Star Trek idea of "zomg organic > mechanical!!!!", engineering a nano virus based on DNA would be more complex than engineering a nano virus to take over a computer system.
4. I didn't claim that Star Wars had unlimited energy/power.  On the contrary, I stated finite numbers to their power generation capabilities.
1. Yes because the Borg can't beam down to any planet that has an imperial engineer, or attack a shuttle carrying one, or any number of other methods to go TO the officer.
2. I think the "My ships generate more power than most stars" was close enough.
3. Maybe, hard to say.  Though the fun ones are the Neurolithic pathogen which are organic viruses that target technology.
4. Yes and those numbers are so large, so unrealistic that they might as well be infinite.  When you start producing more power than most Stars, you're borderline infinity.

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This is a rather foolish argument.  Who's to say that hyperspace and hypermatter don't exist in Star Trek?  What if they simply didn't discover it?
It's possible but since we can't say one way or another, it's a moot point.

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Once the Defiant beams the stormtroopers up, the surrounding forces would be aware that there's a cloaked ship in the vicinity.
Why?  They've never SEEN a transporter and groups can be beamed up so unless all the storm troopers can see each other at all times, the element of stealth is still there.  Plus, if they don't know Transporters exist, then they won't assume the trooper got beamed up by a cloaked ship.

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I'm sorry, but I'm not following what you're trying to say.
Sensors in SW suck.
In fact, while on the Death Star, they could NOT detect the life signs of the gang hiding.  They had to bring in a large crate to try and detect life signs.  
On the other hand, Star Trek uses this:
http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/tricorder2.jpg
That'll show all life signs within about 10KM.

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Then you're admitting that transportors would indeed have to pass through the shield since turbolaser bombardment would.
No.  Transporters can go through solid rock.  Transporting from several degrees off of the horizon, putting the transporter beam under the actual sheild emitter.  

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Fair enough then, although 30 minutes is still unreasonably long, especially given that, if you beam the stormtroopers up, they'll still be able to combat the Federation troops.
I'm confused.  How do Storm Troopers combat Federation Troops while floating in open space?

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1. Thanks for admitting my point.  I wasn't arguing HOW Vader knew, only that he did.
2. See above.
I didn't admit your point.  Vader wouldn't have known a thing if Luke wasn't there.  Luke's like a giant force lightbulb: Vader could sense his presence from orbit.  
What you should be asking is... Why didn't anyone notice that there were Wookie life signs on the shuttle craft?  In an army composed completly of humans it would seem very odd to have a wookie on the shuttle going to the super secure location.
Also, how did they land the shuttle in a non-shuttle landing zone and not get caught?
The only possibility is that the Emporer told everyone to let them slide.


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You still haven't proven that they can open Star Wars doors, but fair enough, since that would be too difficult for anyone to prove.  
Star Wars doors are based on simple electrical connections.  This can be proven by Han Solo successfully connecting two wires together to make the blast door close.  Therefore, a simple scan of the circuit mechanism would reveal what wires activated the door.  Then, sending a precise magnetic wave to the specific wire would create a current that would activate said door curcuit.

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How do you bypass Star Wars shields that are several orders of magnitude beyond Star Trek's shields?
Why do you think they're several orders of magnitude beyond Star Trek shields when you don't even know how they work?

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I'll admit that star destroyers have some pretty crappy design flaws.  However, the A wing had to have caused some sort of chain explosion, because again, it wouldn't have been able to cause that big of an explosion even if the Executor were made out of glass.

Also, this is still not that relevant since Star Trek weapons can't get past Star Wars shields.
Wait, why couldn't it have caused that much of an explosion?  That A-Wing must have been carrying Kilotons worth of Hypermatter as fuel.  Since you have said their power output is extremely high, detonating all that fuel at once would cause an explosion that might very well rival that of a super nova.  In reality, the explosion should have been much, much, much, much, much bigger.
Also Endor should have been vaporized when the Death Star blew.
And why did it take like 5 minutes to go INTO the death star but 15 seconds to leave it?

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Iirc transporters break the subject down into small particles and moves the particles to a location and then reassembles them.  If Star Trek shields can stop them, Star Wars shields can too.
Why?  Since you don't know how Star Wars shields work and since Star Wars shields are obviously vulnerable to physical objects like asteroids (why shoot an asteroid if you can just hit it with your ship and be unharmed) then it's hard to take your argument that particles (actually quarks) are stopped by Star Wars shields.

Also an Ion Cannon disabled a star destroyer in two shots.  Obviously Star Wars shields are not very effective against non-blaster based weapons.

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Jedi don't have beaming technology, but they can short circuit security cameras and other tricks.
Wait what?  Since when can they do that because that would have made the Droid army damn near child's play to defeat.
*waves hand* Shoot the droids.

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The rifles have a faster rate of fire, a longer range, and sights.  However, blaster rifles have all of these.  Unless if either of us can provide a relevant advantage either one has, they can be considered to be equal.
Flashlight, digital iron sights/zoom, and the ability to physically hit someone with it when it becomes useless.

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Which then brings in Star War's advanced armor, armored vehicles, walkers, gernades, heavy portable weaponry, E webs, artillery and other combined arms support weapons that Star Trek is suspiciously lacking in.
That you've seen anyway.  I haven't read the books so I can't comment.
However the quesiton is... Why would they be needed?  If your numbers are correct, a planet could be reduced to rubble by one ship in a matter of an hour.  The Rebel Base shouldn't have even been an issue since they could have just blasted it from several light minutes away.  Why send troops to any planet?  Hell, Walkers, tanks, ect... could all be wiped out from orbit.  

But frankly, if you can beam a strike team into an enemy base, the need to storm the front with heavy artillary becomes a moot point.  Although the mirror universe might have tanks and such since they're FAR more war like.  Then again, with phaser precision, it's easier to just hit your targets from orbit.  So really, ground troops get trumped by space weapons.  

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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
How helpful, the main page...

Anway..
Centerpoint Station: It's a giant tractor beam.  The way to defeat it is to send an engineering team inside (transporters for the win) and destabalize the fusion reactor. (the sun like object)
Galaxy Gun:  Transport the projectile somewhere else (beam it up and keep it suspended), use a tractor beam, phaser it, photon explosion directly in it's path, or using the deflector dish to mess up it's navigational telemetry.
Stealth X's: You never saw Star Trek: Nemesis did you?  The Scimitar was defeated even though it has a perfect cloak, could fire while cloaked, had a HUGE number of weapons, AND two layers of shields.  The Enterprise kick it's ass.

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By that logic I could say that the borg and the Federation wouldn't cooperate.
And you'd be wrong.
Please see Scorpion Part I and II.

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Through advanced technology that is beyond our understanding.  If it were within our understanding, we might have already had it, wouldn't we?
So magic.  
Star Trek uses EPS conduits that funnel the plasma using magnetic fields.
You know, the actual workings of SW stuff seems mostly unknown.  And we all know that you can't debate on something you don't know about.

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The size of the asteroid field wasn't mentioned, and the star destroyers were chasing the Falcon.  Hitting every asteroid, including ones that weren't a threat, would be a waste of time.
Ummm... I didn't say shoot them, I said HIT THEM as in going at 100,000kM/h through the asteroid field.  Hold on, I need to watch The Empire Strikes back real quick...

Yep, going into an asteroid field is very dangerous and likely deadly for any Star Destroyer.  I'm far too lazy to do the math, but I'm almost certain that an asteroid made of rock, and possibly with an iron core impacting shields which are powered by the Star Destroyer's energy reactor directly shouldn't have been an issue since it's both a particle and ray shielded craft.  However, it clearly is an issue.  The only conclusion is that the shields are not nearly as powerful as you say they are.

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Yes, I do.
Then why are you questioning if it's a magnetic field containing said plasma?
And why are you using explosive blasts as the basis for measuring power of a turbolaser?  Plasma is mostly heat and electrical energy.  It doesn't actually explode so much as dissapate the energy.  It's like comparing TNT's destructive ability to the destructive ability of a 60KW power line.


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You clearly don't accept the idea of plasma for turbolasers, yet you accept the ability of gravitons, which haven't been proven to exist AND triggers gravity, the weakest of the four fundamental interactions of nature, to be able to stop antimatter explosions?
Clearly?  I do accept plasma for turbolasers.  It makes sense since the main physical basis is a type of gas mixed with extremely high energy.
Oh and Gravity may be the weakest, but it's very universal.

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That's because Jedi have been shown to be able to move extremely fast and fool security cameras.  Federation troops can't do any of these.
Yes I believe I've seen those ... oh wait... no I haven't.  They have quick reflexes and are in extremely good shape but that's about it.  Unless you want to say "Force Speed" is a canon force power.

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My bad, a wording error.  Nadion RADIATION, is what is often used in Star Trek, and radiation is essentially fast moving particles.  Particles can indeed be stopped by shields.
Umm... not all radation is particle radiation.  Ever heard of the Electro-magnetic spectrum?  Now I can't say if it's actual particles or if it's EM radiation from the secondary or Tertiary EM spectrum(both exist in Star Trek) but it's a moot point since we know SW shields can't defend against all energy types or all particle types.

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If Star Wars used magnetic fields to control their plasma, why can't they block said plasma using magnetic fields?   It seems logical to assume that they either use highly advanced magnetic technology that neither we nor the Federation understands or they use another containment system that we don't know about.
Or that's what ray sheilds do: block the magnetic field as best as they can.  But since they can't even stop asteroids with their mighty power, I'm not holding my breath on that.

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Star Wars missiles have been shown to make >10,000 g turns.  Star Trek starfighters can't outrun them, can't withstand and can't disrupt them.  Unless if they outmaneuver them, what else can they do?
Ummm...
Where does it show that missiles now make over 10,000g turns?  You've just used the same number for two very different things.  A missile should be able to do far greater gs than a ship since it's smaller and doesn't have a squishy human inside.

Oh and we can beam the bitches elsewhere.  Missiles are... not a problem in the 24th Century.
[/quote]

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Also, there's still the fact that this wouldn't matter.  You agreed to the two galaxies side by side set up, in which case the Federation wouldn't be able to even reach Endor with their warp drive.  This therefore makes every race except for the borg and species 8472 non factors due to their lack of hyperdrive or transwarp.

Therefore, it's basically all of Star Wars vs the borg and species 8472.

Species 8472 can blow up planets with just 6 of their tiny ships.  See Scorpion Part I.

I have a question.

Who gives a shit? Seriously, these numbers are all made up. It doesn't matter if a ship is 500 meters away or a thousand kilometers away. These numbers mean nothing. It's technobabble. The models that you say on the television screen do not fit these numbers. Especially Star Wars, the ships fly at close range no matter what they say on screen.

But really, who gives two shits since it doesn't matter? The numbers are not realistic and weren't meant to be. They are dialogue filler technobabble.
Round Earth Guy gives two shits.  Me?  I'd only give him half a shit.  He's not worth the full effort.


English brings up a good point: What is canon?  Who defines canon for Star Wars and Star Trek?  Can anyone who writes a book be considered canon?  Any Game?  Anything with George Lucas's stamp on it?  What IS canon for Star Wars and what is not? 
Or better still...
What is considered canon above all others?

Also - The original post exceeded 20,000 characters. :D
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2010, 07:36:42 PM »
Star Wars ICS doesn't not constitute as canon because,

1) The figures were made in it purely as a cheap shot from a person that wanted to win the Star Wars/Star Trek debate.
2) The figures in it are completely contradictory to what we see in the movies.


1. Still canon.
2. This is indeed a valid point...if it were true.  However, you still haven't given an example.



1. Incorrect. The author of SW ICS has admitted that he made the figures up for his weapons, and that they have no resemblance to what happens in the movies. When somebody thinks that their ideas are more accurate for the Star Wars universe than the actual movies, that is when it is not canon.

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One person Saxton has responded to was Wong's cohort "Ender" from the SD.Net BBS, who had this to say:

    "I emailed him about how he achieved the values for the 900 Gigajoule
    Blaster at the tail of Slave 1. He said that he went by the damage it is
    shown to do to other vessels in the comics in battles and assumed that Boba
    dialed down the power in the movie [...].  He chose official over canon."

2. http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 07:55:20 PM by EnglshGentleman »

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2010, 08:38:30 PM »
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later renamed the Undine in Star Trek Online

That's a shit name for them.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2010, 10:14:25 PM »
EVERYONE JUST SHUT IT.

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Masterchef

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #140 on: October 31, 2010, 11:21:02 AM »
I think it's safe to say that Harry Potter would beat all of them. Just think of the kind of weapons their space ships will have in the 24th century. Yeah, I'm sure your Death Star will be really useful after I turn it into a chicken.

So in conclusion, this entire thread is dumb, and you are all dumb for participating.

Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #141 on: October 31, 2010, 02:44:36 PM »


1. Incorrect. The author of SW ICS has admitted that he made the figures up for his weapons, and that they have no resemblance to what happens in the movies. When somebody thinks that their ideas are more accurate for the Star Wars universe than the actual movies, that is when it is not canon.

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One person Saxton has responded to was Wong's cohort "Ender" from the SD.Net BBS, who had this to say:

    "I emailed him about how he achieved the values for the 900 Gigajoule
    Blaster at the tail of Slave 1. He said that he went by the damage it is
    shown to do to other vessels in the comics in battles and assumed that Boba
    dialed down the power in the movie [...].  He chose official over canon."


Your claim of him making up the numbers is contradicted in your own quote, where he said that he got the data from the comics.  He didn't just make them up.

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2. http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html

Looking at the Slave 1 ship argument, it is indeed true that the effects don't seem to be at 2 kilotons.  We have 3 versions:

1. 2 kilotons from the ICS
2. A few kilograms from the AOTC Obi Wan vs Jango ground battle scene
3. A few hundred tons from the AOTC Obi Wan vs Jango space battle scene

Note that the ICS stated that 2 kilotons is the MAX power setting.  Example number 3 shows that the max power setting can't do rapid fire and thus wouldn't be that helpful in a dogfight.  Although one can argue that it is misleading, the 2 kiloton figure isn't contradicted.  Example number 2 is a tricky one.  Clearly the weapon was dialed down, since it otherwise would contradict number 3 which is also a movie source, but the novel says that the power pack was out after a few shots.  Those few shots at power settings that low shouldn't have drained the power pack out if, via number 3, the laser cannons can go at several hundred tons of TNT in rapid fire mode.

Since that was a novel source, we have two possibilities:

1. The movies outrank the novels.  Therefore, we can assume that the power level was dialed down either by default or manually by Boba in order to avoid killing Jango.  
2. The power pack/the ship wasn't fully charged up yet.





Therefore, the validity of the ICS still stands.  2 kilotons is the max power setting, but for a dogfight a few hundred tons is the general rapid fire setting.

Therefore, the 200 gigaton figure and the 200 trillion gigawatt figure still stand.  These two pretty much destroy Star Trek's stance.  200 gigatons would mean that even an Acclamator could one shot any Federation ship and devastate any Federation planet in a bombardment, and the 200 trillion gigawatt figure attributes the immense power generation gap between Star Wars and Star Trek.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 02:48:50 PM by RoundEarthGuy »

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #142 on: October 31, 2010, 03:46:36 PM »


1. Incorrect. The author of SW ICS has admitted that he made the figures up for his weapons, and that they have no resemblance to what happens in the movies. When somebody thinks that their ideas are more accurate for the Star Wars universe than the actual movies, that is when it is not canon.

Quote
One person Saxton has responded to was Wong's cohort "Ender" from the SD.Net BBS, who had this to say:

    "I emailed him about how he achieved the values for the 900 Gigajoule
    Blaster at the tail of Slave 1. He said that he went by the damage it is
    shown to do to other vessels in the comics in battles and assumed that Boba
    dialed down the power in the movie [...].  He chose official over canon."


Your claim of him making up the numbers is contradicted in your own quote, where he said that he got the data from the comics.  He didn't just make them up.

Quote

2. http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html

Looking at the Slave 1 ship argument, it is indeed true that the effects don't seem to be at 2 kilotons.  We have 3 versions:

1. 2 kilotons from the ICS
2. A few kilograms from the AOTC Obi Wan vs Jango ground battle scene
3. A few hundred tons from the AOTC Obi Wan vs Jango space battle scene

Note that the ICS stated that 2 kilotons is the MAX power setting.  Example number 3 shows that the max power setting can't do rapid fire and thus wouldn't be that helpful in a dogfight.  Although one can argue that it is misleading, the 2 kiloton figure isn't contradicted.  Example number 2 is a tricky one.  Clearly the weapon was dialed down, since it otherwise would contradict number 3 which is also a movie source, but the novel says that the power pack was out after a few shots.  Those few shots at power settings that low shouldn't have drained the power pack out if, via number 3, the laser cannons can go at several hundred tons of TNT in rapid fire mode.

Since that was a novel source, we have two possibilities:

1. The movies outrank the novels.  Therefore, we can assume that the power level was dialed down either by default or manually by Boba in order to avoid killing Jango.  
2. The power pack/the ship wasn't fully charged up yet.





Therefore, the validity of the ICS still stands.  2 kilotons is the max power setting, but for a dogfight a few hundred tons is the general rapid fire setting.

Therefore, the 200 gigaton figure and the 200 trillion gigawatt figure still stand.  These two pretty much destroy Star Trek's stance.  200 gigatons would mean that even an Acclamator could one shot any Federation ship and devastate any Federation planet in a bombardment, and the 200 trillion gigawatt figure attributes the immense power generation gap between Star Wars and Star Trek.


1. He stated that he made them up based on looking at the damage in the comics. All he did is use artistic flair to make up the numbers, not actual data. He did not show any calculations or ways of find his figures, only that he made them up.

2. In the movies it is stated nowhere to the power was dialed down. Why should we assume that they were? The movies are the highest form of canon, and there for they dictate what happens in all other forms, no the other way around. The only possibility is that the figures were completely made up, and when people pointed out that they contradict the movies, he then had to rationalize them afterward.

Also,

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The discrepancy rests with the firepower figures given for that weapon in the ICS . . . 600 gigajoules, or 143 tons of TNT, per shot.   In other words, Saxton claims that the numerous shots shown above depleted the energy packs of a weapon which is usually capable of firing much more powerful shots.  Let's say, just for argument's sake, that the platform explosions were equivalent to 25 kilograms of TNT, and that it was one shot from the guns instead of several.  That would mean that the energy packs were depleted by a shot over 5,700 times less powerful than a standard shot.

You also have not addressed this.

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English brings up a good point: What is canon?  Who defines canon for Star Wars and Star Trek?  Can anyone who writes a book be considered canon?  Any Game?  Anything with George Lucas's stamp on it?  What IS canon for Star Wars and what is not?
Or better still...
What is considered canon above all others?

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Trekky0623

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  • 10061
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #143 on: October 31, 2010, 04:10:47 PM »
English brings up a good point: What is canon?  Who defines canon for Star Wars and Star Trek?  Can anyone who writes a book be considered canon?  Any Game?  Anything with George Lucas's stamp on it?  What IS canon for Star Wars and what is not? 
Or better still...
What is considered canon above all others?

For Star Trek, the only things considered canon are the live action television shows and the films. It is unclear whether the Animated Series is canon or not, but I prefer to think of it as not canon. The tech manuals are open to interpretation. They have credibility because there was collaboration from the writers of Star Trek. However, they have not been officially named canon.

For Star Wars, the canon consists of the six films and, to a certain extent, the other books, comics, and other works that tie into the Star Wars universe as long as they don't contradict the films. This gives a lot of leeway to what is considered canon, as it seems there are various degrees of canon.

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When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them.

In other words, Star Wars has decided to have degrees of canon, where the farther you step away from the films, the more open to speculation the work is. For the purposes of this argument, unless it was seen in the films, everything is open to speculation. The size of the explosion, numbers, names, anything really. So if you're going to be doing weapon yield calculations, the only real reliable source of data is the films and maybe—maybe—literary adaptations of the films.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 04:13:15 PM by Trekky0623 »

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Trekky0623

  • Official Member
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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #144 on: October 31, 2010, 07:02:58 PM »
Concerning Jango Fett's seismic charges, how did you get a figure of 5–10 km wide asteroids? Let's say that Obi Wann's starfighter is 30 feet (judging by the size of the cockpit, I could be wrong) wide and the asteroid is 5 km wide. That means that the asteroid would be about 550 times as wide as the starfighter.

EDIT: Hey, I wasn't off by much. An F-14 Tomcat is 38 ft wide with the wings swept in, and the starfighter is smaller than that.

EDIT2: Some people have reported trouble finding the starfighter in my illustrations, so I have circled it.


Illustration: (The starfighter would be smaller than the red pixel)




Here's what we see in the film: (The starfighter is in the lower left)



These asteroids simply aren't the size you're claiming.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 07:15:32 PM by Trekky0623 »

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Wendy

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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #145 on: November 01, 2010, 12:57:01 AM »
This discussion is not dead. It's just pining for the fjords!
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
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Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #146 on: November 01, 2010, 01:25:32 AM »
It's not pining it's passed on! This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This, is a late thread! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the top page it would be pushin' up the daisies! It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! "THIS IS AN EX THREAD!"

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Lorddave

  • 18295
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #147 on: November 01, 2010, 01:56:58 AM »
It's not pining it's passed on! This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This, is a late thread! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the top page it would be pushin' up the daisies! It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! "THIS IS AN EX THREAD!"

But it's maker still posts in it.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 12744
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #148 on: November 01, 2010, 01:57:57 AM »
So it's met its maker, then.

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Wendy

  • 18492
  • I laugh cus you fake
Re: Scientific proof that Star Wars would crush Star Trek in any war
« Reply #149 on: November 01, 2010, 02:11:17 AM »
Man, that was the most horrible excuse for a joke I've heard in a while.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.