What is the Soul?

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Thork

What is the Soul?
« on: October 20, 2010, 05:58:01 AM »
ClockTower has no soul.

Do any of us? Is ClockTower just a wretched and damned individual? Is a soul the essence of man, or our way of describing what we feel to be emotions linked purely to the human condition? Or is it a desperate yearning to be part of something more important than a viral organism generated by chance.

Is ClockTower to be pitied, or do we all need to accept we are without souls? Just a tag to make us feel special and part of the great design? Or were we blessed by the breath of the creator?

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 06:02:21 AM »
doesn't exist

nobody can properly define it, nobody can ever scientifically test it...

its just a made up crap like free will and conciousness and democracy and determinism to make people feel good about themselves.

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Benocrates

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 06:25:17 AM »
basically what he said, but without the condescension. I think animals have souls too, but they are not quite like ours. I completely disagree that only scientifically testable things are real.
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berny_74

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 07:34:18 AM »
ClockTower has no soul.

Is ClockTower to be pitied, or do we all need to accept we are without souls? Just a tag to make us feel special and part of the great design? Or were we blessed by the breath of the creator?

I think the Problem Clocktower is having is that he is expecting actual intelligent debates.  He has to learn that everybody here really knows the Earth is round and they just love trolling along some poor individuals to the point and drive said individual nuts - then they post their rants in "M-M-Monster Fail"

Berny
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To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 08:02:16 AM »
Berny, this is not a debate about troll's or ClockTower's M-M-M-Monster failings. It is a serious debate about the nature of the soul and/or ClockTower's lack of one.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 08:12:02 AM »
basically what he said, but without the condescension. I think animals have souls too, but they are not quite like ours. I completely disagree that only scientifically testable things are real.

I'm intrigued. 

If i had cloned my favorite dog before she died 2 years ago...would the clone have the same personality as her?

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berny_74

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 08:12:06 AM »
Berny, this is not a debate about troll's or ClockTower's M-M-M-Monster failings. It is a serious debate about the nature of the soul and/or ClockTower's lack of one.

First we need to prove that their is a soul.

Berny
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To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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Benocrates

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 08:18:51 AM »
basically what he said, but without the condescension. I think animals have souls too, but they are not quite like ours. I completely disagree that only scientifically testable things are real.

I'm intrigued.  

If i had cloned my favorite dog before she died 2 years ago...would the clone have the same personality as her?

No...souls are non-transferable and not merely an antipode of biological formation.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 08:22:27 AM »
basically what he said, but without the condescension. I think animals have souls too, but they are not quite like ours. I completely disagree that only scientifically testable things are real.

I'm intrigued.  

If i had cloned my favorite dog before she died 2 years ago...would the clone have the same personality as her?


No...souls are non-transferable and not merely an antipode of biological formation.
I think i am inclined to agree.  Sad, she was a good dog.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 09:17:10 AM »
basically what he said, but without the condescension. I think animals have souls too, but they are not quite like ours. I completely disagree that only scientifically testable things are real.

I'm intrigued. 

If i had cloned my favorite dog before she died 2 years ago...would the clone have the same personality as her?

No,t likely, personalities are a product of biological information plus experiences, since DogII wouldn't have lived the same life as DogI and would likely have contained copying errors in the cloning she would be a totally different dog,

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 09:34:29 AM »
Heh, thought my thread was getting bumped for a moment.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 09:43:34 AM »
Sorry, hadn't lurked properly. Maybe this thread should concentrate more on ClockTower's soul or lack thereof then?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 09:52:14 AM »
Sorry, hadn't lurked properly. Maybe this thread should concentrate more on ClockTower's soul or lack thereof then?
I don't get me wrong, I support making a new thread. We have many new members since that was made, and the history of the forums is way too vast to expect everything gets read. If anything, it might be interesting to see if anyone's opinions have changed over time.

Back to topic: Assuming that the clone was an exact copy in every way, (and had the same memories), it is highly likely they they would be indifferentiable from each other. Limiting ourselves to current technological obstacles disguises the conclusions of the thought experiment. What would it mean for the soul if you could make an exact copy of yourself? (Think of "The Prestige" instead of diseased dolly)

No...souls are non-transferable and not merely an antipode of biological formation.
Just curious, but does your application of 'non-transferable' also imply 'non-duplicatable'?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 09:58:13 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 09:56:03 AM »
If you can put your dead dog's soul into a new dog, would that not mean soul transplants would be possible? Then psychopathic criminals etc could wait on a donor list just as heart patients do. Once they get their new soul, they could be released back into society.

Thank you for being very reasonable about everything ?ingula?i?y.

EDIT: oh, FES doesn't like your name much does it?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 10:10:19 AM »
If you can put your dead dog's soul into a new dog, would that not mean soul transplants would be possible? Then psychopathic criminals etc could wait on a donor list just as heart patients do. Once they get their new soul, they could be released back into society.
I'd agree with your first statement, but possibly because I feel like that's already the definition of a 'soul transplant'.

Bit I find the implications that arise extremely thought provoking:
1. If the soul isn't the person's personality, could we really release him?
2. If we can't judge someone based on the cleanliness of their soul, why can god when he condemns the soul to hell?
3. If the soul is the personality, doesn't that give the soul material existence? (Chemical imbalances, brain functionality, etc. are all demonstrable and directly linked to behavior and demeanor)

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Thank you for being very reasonable about everything ?ingula?i?y.
EDIT: oh, FES doesn't like your name much does it?
lol, I'm very seriously considering changing it. I chose it back when it was my CS:S name, and now it strike me as a bit pretentious. (Plus half the people on the forums can't even see it 'correctly')
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 10:18:53 AM »
1. Or collect him? Could it be confined in a jar, the way it is confined in a body?
2. We can't yet capture and examine a soul to judge it. I guess God still has better technology.
3. The soul can't be the personality. When someone dies their personality dies with them (brain function). The Soul lives on for eternity possibly being used multiple times if reincarnation is the way of things.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 10:25:42 AM »
1. Or collect him? Could it be confined in a jar, the way it is confined in a body?
2. We can't yet capture and examine a soul to judge it. I guess God still has better technology.
3. The soul can't be the personality. When someone dies their personality dies with them (brain function). The Soul lives on for eternity possibly being used multiple times if reincarnation is the way of things.

The soul doesn't take the personality with them, the memories?  I would like to think...that if my soul is going to live on for eternity, that i get to remember the time I was in my physical form.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 10:28:48 AM »
1. Or collect him? Could it be confined in a jar, the way it is confined in a body?
Also interesting. The immaterial being confined to (and supposedly interacting) with the material vessel.
2. We can't yet capture and examine a soul to judge it. I guess God still has better technology.
Does god not judge the soul by sins (behaviors)?  ;)
3. The soul can't be the personality. When someone dies their personality dies with them (brain function). The Soul lives on for eternity possibly being used multiple times if reincarnation is the way of things.
Many parts of the person die together. I recall an instance when a railroad worker became incredibly happy when a railroad spike impaled his head. He maintained his intelligence but imbalanced his brain chemistry.

Arg --Late for class. I'll be back.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 10:34:23 AM »
But supposing reincarnation exists. The Soul would have to be purged of memories or else new born babies would be delivered uttering profanities and demanding a lager and kebab after that awful ordeal. They'd then prattle on for hours about how things were much better in their day and how they helped fight for there country 200 years before and that their mother were ungrateful. They might also want any inheritance they left behind back.

Imagine a Japanese woman's shock when her baby turns to her and says

"Bonjour maman, maintenant fermez vos jambes, car je n'ai pas besoin d'être rappelé"
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 10:36:55 AM by Thork »

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2010, 10:38:11 AM »
But supposing reincarnation exists. The Soul would have to be purged of memories or else new born babies would be delivered uttering profanities and demanding a lager and kebab after that awful ordeal. They'd then prattle on for hours about how things were much better in their day and how they helped fight for there country 200 years before and that their mother were ungrateful. They might also want any inheritance they left behind back.

Imagine a Japanese woman's shock when her baby turns to her and says

"Bonjour maman, maintenant fermez vos jambes, car je n'ai pas besoin d'être rappelé"

That's only if reincarnation exists though.  In that instance i would yes they would have to be purged.  But only in that instance.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2010, 10:45:19 AM »
But why would you need to be reminded of your mortal life? It may be full of disagreements and grudges that you might hold onto in the afterlife causing trouble in heaven. Maybe someone was abused. If you had to take memories like those into paradise with you, would it be paradise?

New life, new start.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2010, 10:48:54 AM »
But why would you need to be reminded of your mortal life? It may be full of disagreements and grudges that you might hold onto in the afterlife causing trouble in heaven. Maybe someone was abused. If you had to take memories like those into paradise with you, would it be paradise?

New life, new start.

Interesting.  So i won't recognize anyone in the after life either...parents, grandparents, friends?  So whats the point for the physical relationship with said people.  We should all just be hermits in caves if we don't get to take that with us.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2010, 11:05:03 AM »
Consider it an acid test of your soul. If you can form friendships, relationships, love, and treat your fellow souls well, then there is a place for you in heaven.

If you are a d*ck, get down to hell with all the other d*cks.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2010, 12:58:05 PM »
Hmm. I never thought of memories as part of the soul, to be purged from it.
...After all physical brain damage can lead to permanent memory loss, and if memories were part of the soul, would that imply that the soul is damaged as well? I always assumed that the christian heaven would be 'without a past'.

I'm not surprised though, because most of the aspects associated with heaven/hell seem to focus on properties of the physical realm. For instance, burning in fire is a corporeal disincentive, even though physical pain in a nonphysical realm makes no sense to me. Does the soul have immaterial soul'ish' nerve endings?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:03:04 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 01:19:30 PM »
I suspect physical encumbrance of the soul, was a way to convey to children and the uneducated masses of the day, the punishment that may lie waiting in the afterlife. But I suspect it is a metaphor for a tortured soul. Not being able to describe ones future in heaven or hell, as of course none of the living have any concious knowledge of it, earthly manifestation of this eternal anguish seems the best way to convey the message.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 01:37:19 PM »
Berny, this is not a debate about troll's or ClockTower's M-M-M-Monster failings. It is a serious debate about the nature of the soul and/or ClockTower's lack of one.

First we need to prove that their is a soul.

Berny
Likes sole, with butter and almonds.

Agreed, given what we know today about how the brain functions, I questions the need for a soul.  We have been able to tie bodily functions, thoughts, memories and even personality traits to specific portions of the physical brain.  Given all that, what exactly does the soul do?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2010, 02:47:15 PM »
I suspect physical encumbrance of the soul, was a way to convey to children and the uneducated masses of the day, the punishment that may lie waiting in the afterlife. But I suspect it is a metaphor for a tortured soul. Not being able to describe ones future in heaven or hell, as of course none of the living have any concious knowledge of it, earthly manifestation of this eternal anguish seems the best way to convey the message.
That would certainly solve a couple problems, but it makes no sense to make the claims without acknowledging they are just used to compare and deter people, and have no actual bearing. Describing a lake of fire  and the setting of hell so vividly (as a undeclared comparison) also makes no sense.

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'Your soul will burn in the flames of hell.'*
*Or something else unpleasant that I can't describe.
It kinda makes the bible seem like misinformation even from a christian perspective.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 02:51:11 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Thork

Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 02:54:34 PM »
I suspect physical encumbrance of the soul, was a way to convey to children and the uneducated masses of the day, the punishment that may lie waiting in the afterlife. But I suspect it is a metaphor for a tortured soul. Not being able to describe ones future in heaven or hell, as of course none of the living have any concious knowledge of it, earthly manifestation of this eternal anguish seems the best way to convey the message.
That would certainly solve a couple problems, but it makes no sense to make the claims without acknowledging they are just used to compare and deter people, and have no actual bearing. Describing a lake of fire  and the setting of hell so vividly (as a undeclared comparison) also makes no sense.

'Your soul will burn in the flames of hell.'*
*Or something else unpleasant that I can't describe.
I suspect renaissance art is at the heart of this.

Artists can't paint the intangible. But without any other frame of reference, preachers would say you will burn in the fires of hell as the depictions in their cathedrals suggest, pointing a bony figure at a tortured scene.

It would be interesting to see the first reference for people burning in hell. I'm not sure (but would happily be corrected), that the Bible mentions hell in this context.


Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 05:52:50 PM »
Berny, this is not a debate about troll's or ClockTower's M-M-M-Monster failings. It is a serious debate about the nature of the soul and/or ClockTower's lack of one.

First we need to prove that their is a soul.

Berny
Likes sole, with butter and almonds.

Agreed, given what we know today about how the brain functions, I questions the need for a soul.  We have been able to tie bodily functions, thoughts, memories and even personality traits to specific portions of the physical brain.  Given all that, what exactly does the soul do?
because without it we would just have a system. We would be just a system. and true systems have no need of consciousness. consciousness feelings work well at explaining why things happen. things don't like being at high energy levels therefor they roll down hill and such. a ball doesn't really want to roll down the hill it just does. neither consciousness or feeling is required or expected.
You can't outrun death forever
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Vindictus

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Re: What is the Soul?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2010, 06:15:26 PM »
Berny, this is not a debate about troll's or ClockTower's M-M-M-Monster failings. It is a serious debate about the nature of the soul and/or ClockTower's lack of one.

First we need to prove that their is a soul.

Berny
Likes sole, with butter and almonds.

Agreed, given what we know today about how the brain functions, I questions the need for a soul.  We have been able to tie bodily functions, thoughts, memories and even personality traits to specific portions of the physical brain.  Given all that, what exactly does the soul do?
because without it we would just have a system. We would be just a system. and true systems have no need of consciousness. consciousness feelings work well at explaining why things happen. things don't like being at high energy levels therefor they roll down hill and such. a ball doesn't really want to roll down the hill it just does. neither consciousness or feeling is required or expected.

Our brain gives us consciousness, not our soul.

I'm not sure what GPE has to do with this, either.