The Impossible Map

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The Impossible Map
« on: October 17, 2010, 10:59:50 PM »
I know the topic has been done to death, but I have been reading through the forums for a few days to find any sort of answer to the question.  Everything seems to turn into name-calling on both sides.  I would appreciate it if someone would answer (or at least debate) my question concisely and trolls from both sides would yell at each other in a different thread.

The question is, of course, how can you account for the fact that known airplane flight times follow the can be accurately predicted with an assumption of a spherical earth and cannot be with a flat earth?  Here is an experiment I performed in which I used basic geometry to calculate the flight time of a plane going 550 mph between three coordinates that are almost exactly at the same latitude:  Santiago, Chile; Cape Town, South Africa; and Auckland, New Zealand.  I first calculated for the time it should take for the flight on the most common flat earth map, then I did for a globular.  I then checked average flight times between the three cities.  The times matched the round earth model within 20 minutes, while the flat earth model was off by as much as 29 hours.

Let me know if I did my math wrong, but this is as clear of an argument against the flat earth theory as I can conjure.  I'm sorry if my drawings are crude and my handwriting is poor.  It's hard to see, but the radius I'm referring to is from the North Pole to 33oS latitude, not the edge of the earth.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 11:14:37 PM by jonnie »

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 11:13:01 PM »
I forgot to mention it, but the reason I chose a curved path heading along the latitude rather than a straight path is that pilots navigate with a compass and an assumption of a spherical earth and therefore choose to take the most direct route according to that coordinate system which is, in this case, directly along the 33oS line of latitude.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 11:42:58 PM »
Hello and may I be the first to welcome you to the Flat Earth Society. I see you have said that you have read a few threads, and may I ask you read this one starting from this post?


Have fun learning and having your intellectual horizon expanded.  :)

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 12:07:44 AM »
I find your results correct assuming that the polar projection yields a reliable FE map. Of course, you'll never convince any FEer. Pongo for example argue that bird push jets along faster to correct for the 29 hour delta. Tom Bishop just mumbles that FET doesn't have cartographers to complete an FET map, so your figures are meaningless.

Here's one of my favorite posts, so laughable, from Tom Bishop on the subject: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=14132.msg222876#msg222876.

Please keep the good ideas coming.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Lorddave

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 02:18:30 AM »
There is a flaw in your argument: there is no official flat earth map. No accurate map has ever been produced by the Flat Earth Society. Using their most common one is irrelevant as it can be claimed as an illustrative example and not an accurate diagram.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Danukenator123

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 03:40:57 AM »
There is a flaw in your argument: there is no official flat earth map. No accurate map has ever been produced by the Flat Earth Society. Using their most common one is irrelevant as it can be claimed as an illustrative example and not an accurate diagram.

I'd say that the bigger flaw is that they often use the U.N. Flag as an example. Also there are numerous other reasons like the lack of a scientific explanation for the Coriolis Effect, which was recently discussed.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 03:52:29 AM »
The flaw in everything is that EnglshGentlemen is an "avid believer" in the FE world. He'll ask you day in and day out for proof but provide nothing logical on his theories for a black hole between the Earth and Moon.

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Thork

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 04:18:53 AM »
Quote
The question is, of course, how can you account for the fact that known airplane flight times follow the can be accurately predicted with an assumption of a spherical earth and cannot be with a flat earth?

You cannot use flight times to conclude that the earth is any shape. Flight times cannot be accurately attributed to any distance or journey. There are dozens of reasons why an aircraft will take the amount of time it does to make a journey.

The first reason is that you never fly direct to your destination.
1) You will always take off and land into wind. This means you may fly in the opposite direction to your intended travel on take off and then having gained enough altitude to be clear of the airport and usually city below, make a turn onto the SID (Mentioned below).
2) Landing is the same. You may have to fly past the airport round the back of it to approach the active runway using a STAR.
3) You must follow a SID when you leave an Airport and use a STAR when you approach one. These take you all over the place to avoid overflying cities for noise abaitment and for terrain clearance on take off and to position aircraft for traffic controllers to feed them in for final approach at the right times for landing. You are also tracking over beacons that are laid out in fields in the middle of nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Instrument_Departure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Terminal_Arrival_Route
4) You may well be placed in a hold. 4 minute race tracks in a stack. You join at the top and aircraft will be stacked every 1000 feet all the way down. When the controller wants another aircraft, he takes one from the bottom. You will not be able to factor in traffic density into your calculation, so cannot say how long you might hold for. You might not hold at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_(aviation)
5) Most routing, especially in remote places is going to be using routes that rely on beacons such as VOR's or NDB's. Following these again takes you out of your way.
6) When crossing oceans you will be forced by law to use a track system for aircraft separation. These change daily due to the weather and again traffic. You can't ever say which route you used on your flight as a passenger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Tracks

Aircraft performance is another major factor
1) You cannot say how much your aircraft weighed on that day. This effects climb performance and cruise. Altitude effects speed.
2) As altitude effects speed you would need to know how high you flew that day. The higher the quicker, due to the widening difference in IAS and TAS.
3) Even the same aircraft types may have different engines. This again effects performance calcs for climb.
4) Temperature plays a large part. Warm air ruins performance. You need to know how hot it was. Temperature also effects Mach number. Commercial aircraft don't fly speeds, they fly on a mach number. As the local speed of sound will vary from day to day you can never be sure how fast you are actually flying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_number
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mach_number
5) Atmospheric pressure effects performance. A high pressure is going to hamper your climb out.
http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/flight-planning/aircraft-performance-3.php
6) Wind will effect flight times. Get a good 50 mph head wind and it is going to make some difference to having done the same journey with a 50 mph tailwind. Wind at 30,000 ft is fast.
7) Weight also makes a large difference to cruise performance. Higher loads mean requiring more lift. For this you fly slightly more nose up (Makes a massive distance on a long journey) to get a better angle of attack. This in turn means you are on the end of more drag.
8 ) You rarely descend straight in. You usually perform a let down procedure. You can't predict accurately when you will begin your descent because that will depend on the controller and his traffic volumes.
Check the link below, its interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_plan
9) When descending to low level you are bound to a 250 kt speed limit. This depends on the airspace structure.

Economic factors. (The pilot's influence)
1) Should your aircraft be running late (i.e you took off late) the pilot will go faster. He'll burn extra fuel to avoid a costly late penalty.
2) Should you be ahead of schedule (Maybe you got lucky with an unexpectedly strong tailwind) he'll slow down to save fuel.

I would rigorously argue that with all of those factors and more, one would easily have enough room for manoeuvre to prove the earth was round, flat, shaped like a pygmy goat or is inside-out.

Flight times prove nothing.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 04:32:57 AM by Thork »

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 04:35:36 AM »
You're telling us that everything you just said adds THAT MUCH to a flight time?

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Thork

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 04:40:10 AM »
You're telling us that everything you just said adds THAT MUCH to a flight time?
Absolutely. All of those differences add up to a massive variation. I could add more.

Flight times prove nothing.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 04:42:48 AM »
A great post by Thork. It's been a while since we've had a pilot with the right know-how arguing intensively in the upper boards. I'd say we haven't really had anyone fill that gap since TheEngineer stopped posting. Good to have you around Thork!
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 04:48:27 AM »
You're telling us that everything you just said adds THAT MUCH to a flight time?
Absolutely. All of those differences add up to a massive variation. I could add more.

Flight times prove nothing.
Then do it?

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zork

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2010, 04:48:47 AM »
You're telling us that everything you just said adds THAT MUCH to a flight time?
Absolutely. All of those differences add up to a massive variation. I could add more.

Flight times prove nothing.
 What about then when you have flight without problems? From Chile to New Zealand? Visually evaluating the RE map and FE map the distance difference may be three-four times as much as on RE. That makes you claim that you can fly 30 000 or 40 000 km in the same time as 10 000. And with the same fuel consumption.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2010, 04:49:27 AM »
A great post by Thork. It's been a while since we've had a pilot with the right know-how arguing intensively in the upper boards. I'd say we haven't really had anyone fill that gap since TheEngineer stopped posting. Good to have you around Thork!
A stupid post, he didn't prove anything. All he said was, "I could prove more." Good job at failing since that's all your society does since the Earth is round and you're wrong.

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Thork

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2010, 05:00:12 AM »
I have produced numerous reasons why an aircraft's flight time is inaccurate.

The onus should now really be upon you, to provide a rebuttal showing the variation given for each point, I have made, concluding they would not add up to that much time. Being as my experience of Round Earthers is that prefer to argue rather than prove, I suspect I will have a very long wait for these numbers. However, until I am shown otherwise, I will consider the argument put forth by the OP as without thought or prior knowledge as to what is involved in aircraft navigation, and thus worthless.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2010, 05:05:40 AM »
Being that the experience of any Round Earther is that Flat Earther's argue and not prove, it's not hard to go on an airline's website and figure out when you'll arrive on a flight. If it says you'll arrive at 3:30pm and you arrive at 3:40pm, is that really inaccurate? I wouldn't think so. There are variables like you said. However, if there was an hour + difference on every flight ever, someone would have said something sooner.

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berny_74

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2010, 05:12:56 AM »
I have produced numerous reasons why an aircraft's flight time is inaccurate.

The onus should now really be upon you, to provide a rebuttal showing the variation given for each point, I have made, concluding they would not add up to that much time. Being as my experience of Round Earthers is that prefer to argue rather than prove, I suspect I will have a very long wait for these numbers. However, until I am shown otherwise, I will consider the argument put forth by the OP as without thought or prior knowledge as to what is involved in aircraft navigation, and thus worthless.

Well this sounds like my Circumnavigation challenge at 55Deg South....  But as you know all those factors you put in tend to DELAY aircraft more than speed it up.  So the times can be considered a "Fastest provided everything goes perfectly" flight time.  Therefore on the FE map Provided with times cranked up to in one case 42 hours.... it is unlikely the plane will get there in a shorter time.

Of course none of this matters since nobody can come up with accurate flight times or distances until an actual FE map is produced.  Otherwise the mpas are in reality a RE map that is in some projected form that introduces errors.  I think a FE'er should take some time and start producing a map so an actual distance/time debate can happen.

Berny
Thinks this is the Job for Thork
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

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zork

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010, 05:13:32 AM »
I have produced numerous reasons why an aircraft's flight time is inaccurate.

The onus should now really be upon you, to provide a rebuttal showing the variation given for each point, I have made, concluding they would not add up to that much time. Being as my experience of Round Earthers is that prefer to argue rather than prove, I suspect I will have a very long wait for these numbers. However, until I am shown otherwise, I will consider the argument put forth by the OP as without thought or prior knowledge as to what is involved in aircraft navigation, and thus worthless.
You have not shown numbers for flight times, not how much each of your problem/reason adds up to the normal flight time and how many these problems/reasons usually occur in flights. You have only stated number of problems which can occur and number of reasons which may add some time to the flight time. But numbers? How much is the flight time(one specific plane) for 10 000 km with all the problems and reasons added which you brought up? And what is the flight time(for the same plane) absolutely without problems for the 30 000km?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Thork

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2010, 05:16:28 AM »
Being that the experience of any Round Earther is that Flat Earther's argue and not prove, it's not hard to go on an airline's website and figure out when you'll arrive on a flight. If it says you'll arrive at 3:30pm and you arrive at 3:40pm, is that really inaccurate? I wouldn't think so. There are variables like you said. However, if there was an hour + difference on every flight ever, someone would have said something sooner.
So what? They give you an eta. I'm saying this cannot be shown to be directly related to earth's shape. It is the time they expect you to be there. They will be accurate, because the trip has been carried out many times before. And if anything goes wrong to take you away from the eta, the pilot makes it so by going faster or slower. Read and understand my original objection. Then go about suggesting how the sum of all those parts makes the earth round.

Flight times prove nothing.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2010, 05:17:46 AM »
Being that the experience of any Round Earther is that Flat Earther's argue and not prove, it's not hard to go on an airline's website and figure out when you'll arrive on a flight. If it says you'll arrive at 3:30pm and you arrive at 3:40pm, is that really inaccurate? I wouldn't think so. There are variables like you said. However, if there was an hour + difference on every flight ever, someone would have said something sooner.
So what? They give you an eta. I'm saying this cannot be shown to be directly related to earth's shape. It is the time they expect you to be there. They will be accurate, because the trip has been carried out many times before. And if anything goes wrong to take you away from the eta, the pilot makes it so by going faster or slower. Read and understand my original objection. Then go about suggesting how the sum of all those parts makes the earth round.

Flight times prove nothing.
You're basing it off of an idea of an unproven conspiracy. Until it is proven, then it is wrong.

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Thork

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2010, 05:23:33 AM »
Being that the experience of any Round Earther is that Flat Earther's argue and not prove, it's not hard to go on an airline's website and figure out when you'll arrive on a flight. If it says you'll arrive at 3:30pm and you arrive at 3:40pm, is that really inaccurate? I wouldn't think so. There are variables like you said. However, if there was an hour + difference on every flight ever, someone would have said something sooner.
So what? They give you an eta. I'm saying this cannot be shown to be directly related to earth's shape. It is the time they expect you to be there. They will be accurate, because the trip has been carried out many times before. And if anything goes wrong to take you away from the eta, the pilot makes it so by going faster or slower. Read and understand my original objection. Then go about suggesting how the sum of all those parts makes the earth round.

Flight times prove nothing.
You're basing it off of an idea of an unproven conspiracy. Until it is proven, then it is wrong.
So you got nothing? And my suggestions are not conspiracy. They are fact. Those factors are all considered for navigation. You are now complaining to derail this poorly thought out OP. Lick your wounds, and try harder for next time.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2010, 05:23:51 AM »
A great post by Thork. It's been a while since we've had a pilot with the right know-how arguing intensively in the upper boards. I'd say we haven't really had anyone fill that gap since TheEngineer stopped posting. Good to have you around Thork!
A stupid post, he didn't prove anything. All he said was, "I could prove more." Good job at failing since that's all your society does since the Earth is round and you're wrong.


I never claimed that he has proved anything. However, he has demonstrated that due to the number of variables, flight times are not a reliable means of determining the size, shape or extent of the Earth. The kind of 1:1 comparison between distance and time used by the OP is simply not sustainable.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2010, 05:26:30 AM »
Being that the experience of any Round Earther is that Flat Earther's argue and not prove, it's not hard to go on an airline's website and figure out when you'll arrive on a flight. If it says you'll arrive at 3:30pm and you arrive at 3:40pm, is that really inaccurate? I wouldn't think so. There are variables like you said. However, if there was an hour + difference on every flight ever, someone would have said something sooner.
So what? They give you an eta. I'm saying this cannot be shown to be directly related to earth's shape. It is the time they expect you to be there. They will be accurate, because the trip has been carried out many times before. And if anything goes wrong to take you away from the eta, the pilot makes it so by going faster or slower. Read and understand my original objection. Then go about suggesting how the sum of all those parts makes the earth round.

Flight times prove nothing.
You're basing it off of an idea of an unproven conspiracy. Until it is proven, then it is wrong.
So you got nothing? And my suggestions are not conspiracy. They are fact. Those factors are all considered for navigation. You are now complaining to derail this poorly thought out OP. Lick your wounds, and try harder for next time.
Facts are proven. You said there are variables. I could easily say those variables are wrong, and be right according to your belief system. If you're going to slaughter me, do it correctly sir. I made the claim that you can find a flight path easily from any airline. You claim that pilots change speeds to meet these if they aren't meeting them. Prove it.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2010, 05:27:07 AM »
A great post by Thork. It's been a while since we've had a pilot with the right know-how arguing intensively in the upper boards. I'd say we haven't really had anyone fill that gap since TheEngineer stopped posting. Good to have you around Thork!
A stupid post, he didn't prove anything. All he said was, "I could prove more." Good job at failing since that's all your society does since the Earth is round and you're wrong.


I never claimed that he has proved anything. However, he has demonstrated that due to the number of variables, flight times are not a reliable means of determining the size, shape or extent of the Earth. The kind of 1:1 comparison between distance and time used by the OP is simply not sustainable.
He said pilots change the speed of an airplane to meet the ETA's posted on websites. I want proof.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2010, 05:31:09 AM »
He said pilots change the speed of an airplane to meet the ETA's posted on websites. I want proof.


You want proof that pilots try and to get to destinations on time despite taking-off late? Seriously?


What would you consider 'proof'?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zork

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2010, 05:34:58 AM »
Flight times prove nothing.
Yes they prove. If there is known flight time for a specific plane for a 10 000km and specific average speed then if plane flies it with approximate time predicted the distance between two points is about 10 000km. You don't fly the 30 000km with the same plane and with the same average speed in same amount of time. So, they kind of prove that the place which is supposed to be 10 000km away isn't really 30 000 km away.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2010, 05:35:03 AM »
Being that the experience of any Round Earther is that Flat Earther's argue and not prove, it's not hard to go on an airline's website and figure out when you'll arrive on a flight. If it says you'll arrive at 3:30pm and you arrive at 3:40pm, is that really inaccurate? I wouldn't think so. There are variables like you said. However, if there was an hour + difference on every flight ever, someone would have said something sooner.
So what? They give you an eta. I'm saying this cannot be shown to be directly related to earth's shape. It is the time they expect you to be there. They will be accurate, because the trip has been carried out many times before. And if anything goes wrong to take you away from the eta, the pilot makes it so by going faster or slower. Read and understand my original objection. Then go about suggesting how the sum of all those parts makes the earth round.

Flight times prove nothing.
You're basing it off of an idea of an unproven conspiracy. Until it is proven, then it is wrong.
So you got nothing? And my suggestions are not conspiracy. They are fact. Those factors are all considered for navigation. You are now complaining to derail this poorly thought out OP. Lick your wounds, and try harder for next time.
It's not hard to do math to have a basic idea of how long it will take. Obviously there are variables, but there are variables in everything ever. You're trying to make a statement to prove me wrong, when all it comes down to is basic science in everything. We're not stupid, but what we say is provable, and has been. It's people like Wilmore and yourself who have questioned it without an open mind who have brought it down. I guess science and math doesn't come into play when dealing with TFES.

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Thork

Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2010, 05:38:01 AM »
Proof.
http://tomopt.com/docs/models/tomlab_models028.php

Source code for scheduling.

Quote
The early or late arrival of an aircraft with respect
% to its target time leads to disruption of the airport and causes
% costs. To take into account these cost and to compare them more
% easily, a penalty per minute of early arrival and a second penalty
% per minute of late arrival are associated with every plane.

Pilot's avoid these costs at every opportunity. The are reprimanded by their line managers for incurring them.

Now where is your proof?

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zork

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2010, 05:43:55 AM »
Proof.
http://tomopt.com/docs/models/tomlab_models028.php

Source code for scheduling.

Quote
The early or late arrival of an aircraft with respect
% to its target time leads to disruption of the airport and causes
% costs. To take into account these cost and to compare them more
% easily, a penalty per minute of early arrival and a second penalty
% per minute of late arrival are associated with every plane.

Pilot's avoid these costs at every opportunity. The are reprimanded by their line managers for incurring them.

Now where is your proof?
You just brought up perfect example why you can't use the estimated flight time for 10 000km with the flight which is actually 30 000 km or more.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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sillyrob

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Re: The Impossible Map
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2010, 05:46:51 AM »
Proof.
http://tomopt.com/docs/models/tomlab_models028.php

Source code for scheduling.

Quote
The early or late arrival of an aircraft with respect
% to its target time leads to disruption of the airport and causes
% costs. To take into account these cost and to compare them more
% easily, a penalty per minute of early arrival and a second penalty
% per minute of late arrival are associated with every plane.

Pilot's avoid these costs at every opportunity. The are reprimanded by their line managers for incurring them.

Now where is your proof?
Can you prove this?