Lunar Laser Ranging experiment?

FE'er uses Conspiracy!

It's not very effective.

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

I've proposed in the past the when the harmful moonlight heading towards Earth is hit by the laser, it changes the composition of the moonlight so it seems as though it is the same laser bouncing back.

I recall I also had a theory on moon phases that was pretty devastating to RET.

Now where is that....

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

There are several reasons the mirror is needed. I can list these two: 1) To ensure the return intensity is high enough to detect. 2) To ensure the angle of the return matches the angle of the incidence.

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

There are several reasons the mirror is needed. I can list these two: 1) To ensure the return intensity is high enough to detect. 2) To ensure the angle of the return matches the angle of the incidence.

1) If sunlight can maintain enough intensity to bounce off and reach earth, I'm sure a high powered laser would.
2) Surely a sweep with a laser, will by the law of averages produce an earth bound return?

Thank you for your well wishes by the way. Its been a rotten day, but everyone has been supportive. On the bright side, its going to give me a lot more time to convince you of your errors on FES.

But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

It does. This is why I believe that the interaction the moon's rays must be interacting with the laser. After all, if they didn't, there would be no laser coming back now would there?!

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

There are several reasons the mirror is needed. I can list these two: 1) To ensure the return intensity is high enough to detect. 2) To ensure the angle of the return matches the angle of the incidence.

1) If sunlight can maintain enough intensity to bounce off and reach earth, I'm sure a high powered laser would.
2) Surely a sweep with a laser, will by the law of averages produce an earth bound return?

Thank you for your well wishes by the way. Its been a rotten day, but everyone has been supportive. On the bright side, its going to give me a lot more time to convince you of your errors on FES.

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 02:21:34 PM

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

There are several reasons the mirror is needed. I can list these two: 1) To ensure the return intensity is high enough to detect. 2) To ensure the angle of the return matches the angle of the incidence.

1) If sunlight can maintain enough intensity to bounce off and reach earth, I'm sure a high powered laser would.
2) Surely a sweep with a laser, will by the law of averages produce an earth bound return?

Thank you for your well wishes by the way. Its been a rotten day, but everyone has been supportive. On the bright side, its going to give me a lot more time to convince you of your errors on FES.

It is not the fact that it will bounce back to earth - it is at that point the intensity is greater than a normal return.  Like using your watch to blind your friend while watching TV, the mirror is designed to bounce the signal back with a higher intensity than if bounced off the standard lunar surface.


Berny
Just finished making sauerkraut

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

There are several reasons the mirror is needed. I can list these two: 1) To ensure the return intensity is high enough to detect. 2) To ensure the angle of the return matches the angle of the incidence.

1) If sunlight can maintain enough intensity to bounce off and reach earth, I'm sure a high powered laser would.
2) Surely a sweep with a laser, will by the law of averages produce an earth bound return?

Thank you for your well wishes by the way. Its been a rotten day, but everyone has been supportive. On the bright side, its going to give me a lot more time to convince you of your errors on FES.

What difference does the intensity make? If you need more to measure it, use a higher powered laser. You are only interested in the time for return. So what if that return is diminished in intensity. The time is still the same.

Sauerkraut is only useful for removing stubborn lavatory stains. I very much hope you are not intending to eat it.  

Thork
Finds the idea of pickled German cabbage quite revolting.

I watched a show about this once where they picked a random spot on the moon to shoot the laser at and got no return at all. Then they trained it on the mirror and got a small but consistent return.

I've proposed in the past the when the harmful moonlight heading towards Earth is hit by the laser, it changes the composition of the moonlight so it seems as though it is the same laser bouncing back.

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 02:21:34 PM

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 01:57:11 PM

If light bounces off the moon anyway, why would anyone bother with a mirror? But EGs theory on moon phases also make this seem unlikely.

There are several reasons the mirror is needed. I can list these two: 1) To ensure the return intensity is high enough to detect. 2) To ensure the angle of the return matches the angle of the incidence.

1) If sunlight can maintain enough intensity to bounce off and reach earth, I'm sure a high powered laser would.
2) Surely a sweep with a laser, will by the law of averages produce an earth bound return?

Thank you for your well wishes by the way. Its been a rotten day, but everyone has been supportive. On the bright side, its going to give me a lot more time to convince you of your errors on FES.

1) Show your math. Are you saying James is wrong about the bioluminescence of the Moon?
2) No, the law of averages doesn't say that.

You're welcome.

Even with a mirror, and a very high powered laser, very few photons are reflected back to the detector. It's not even the power you have to worry about, it's the spreading of the beam.

Quote from: General Disarray on October 15, 2010, 02:46:09 PM

Even with a mirror, and a very high powered laser, very few photons are reflected back to the detector. It's not even the power you have to worry about, it's the spreading of the beam.

I don't think so. Getting any part of the beam back is going to be enough. The time is measured by pulses. And a few photons will be enough.

@Berny - I suspect you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes with the "Yes the mirror is there". And being as you want to drag shrimp back into this, I believe they were described as being highly intelligent. maybe they built the mirror to comb their antennae with. And fried road-kill is probably also full of nutrients but I won't be eating that either.

1) The maths is irrelevant. REr's can't have it both ways. Either the sun is intense enough to bounce light off and therefore so is a laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
Sun 32,000-130,000 lux
You can buy a little laser with 200,000 lux yourself.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5100
Finally this does not discredit bioluminescence. The moon can be shiny and biolumiescent. You still get a return regardless of what those pesky moon mites are up to.

A laser would be powerful enough not to need a mirror.
2) Well you would agree that firing a laser randomly at the moon would make the resulting beam bounce off in all directions? Well one of those directions will be back to earth, where you could get your reading.

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

Quote from: General Disarray on October 15, 2010, 02:46:09 PM

Even with a mirror, and a very high powered laser, very few photons are reflected back to the detector. It's not even the power you have to worry about, it's the spreading of the beam.

I don't think so. Getting any part of the beam back is going to be enough. The time is measured by pulses. And a few photons will be enough.

Does that mean you you agree with the distances that are being recorded? NO - merely that you don't need a mirror.
If you accept a laser comes back then you can time it and then you can get a distance right? I feel you are now dragging me off topic

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

@Berny - I suspect you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes with the "Yes the mirror is there". And being as you want to drag shrimp back into this, I believe they were described as being highly intelligent. maybe they built the mirror to comb their antennae with. And fried road-kill is probably also full of nutrients but I won't be eating that either.

ROADKILL CAFE MENU

Well, if you are ever in the area?

Berny
Hungry for a splat of cat

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

1) The maths is irrelevant. REr's can't have it both ways. Either the sun is intense enough to bounce light off and therefore so is a laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
Sun 32,000-130,000 lux
You can buy a little laser with 200,000 lux yourself.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5100
Finally this does not discredit bioluminescence. The moon can be shiny and biolumiescent. You still get a return regardless of what those pesky moon mites are up to.

A laser would be powerful enough not to need a mirror.
2) Well you would agree that firing a laser randomly at the moon would make the resulting beam bounce off in all directions? Well one of those directions will be back to earth, where you could get your reading.

1) Explain to me why you're comparing the Sun's lux on Earth to a laser from Earth. You seem to be rambling.

James says the Moon shines by only its own light. You say both. Is he right or are you?

2) Please provide evidence that one of those directions would be precisely back at the detector and with the specific wavelength expected and recorded.

Quote from: berny_74 on October 15, 2010, 03:29:07 PM

Does that mean you you agree with the distances that are being recorded? NO - merely that you don't need a mirror. Well then why would it stop someone from doing so?  In fact how do the accounts of laser and radio range finding of the moon correlate to FE theories?
If you accept a laser comes back then you can time it and then you can get a distance right? I feel you are now dragging me off topic. Really?  We're still on lasers and rangefinding?

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

@Berny - I suspect you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes with the "Yes the mirror is there". And being as you want to drag shrimp back into this, I believe they were described as being highly intelligent. maybe they built the mirror to comb their antennae with. And fried road-kill is probably also full of nutrients but I won't be eating that either.

ROADKILL CAFE MENU

Well, if you are ever in the area?

Berny
Hungry for a splat of cat

2) I am not a scientist. I am an unemployed bum who now whiles his hours away on FES. Why wouldn't one of those directions be back to earth? Can you prove it would never come back to earth? That would be an odd phenomenon. They have been measuring this since 1969. With all those returns, you can bet some would randomly come back when they fire thousands every second.

Thork,
Busy trumping Berny's horrid cabbage with homemade apple crumble and custard.

1) The maths is irrelevant. REr's can't have it both ways. Either the sun is intense enough to bounce light off and therefore so is a laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
Sun 32,000-130,000 lux
You can buy a little laser with 200,000 lux yourself.

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:46:58 PM

Quote from: berny_74 on October 15, 2010, 03:29:07 PM

Does that mean you you agree with the distances that are being recorded? NO - merely that you don't need a mirror. Well then why would it stop someone from doing so?  In fact how do the accounts of laser and radio range finding of the moon correlate to FE theories? The moon's distance is measured using zetetic methods
If you accept a laser comes back then you can time it and then you can get a distance right? I feel you are now dragging me off topic. Really?  We're still on lasers and rangefinding?No, we are talking about whether the moon reflects light without needing a mirror and if any of that reflected light comes back to earth. I say yes to both.
:p

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

@Berny - I suspect you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes with the "Yes the mirror is there". And being as you want to drag shrimp back into this, I believe they were described as being highly intelligent. maybe they built the mirror to comb their antennae with. And fried road-kill is probably also full of nutrients but I won't be eating that either.

ROADKILL CAFE MENU

Well, if you are ever in the area?

Berny
Hungry for a splat of cat

2) I am not a scientist. I am an unemployed bum who now whiles his hours away on FES. Why wouldn't one of those directions be back to earth? Can you prove it would never come back to earth? That would be an odd phenomenon. They have been measuring this since 1969. With all those returns, you can bet some would randomly come back when they fire thousands every second.

Thork,
Busy trumping Berny's horrid cabbage with homemade apple crumble and custard.

Berny
Still has leftover raisin bread poor man's pudding with apple oatmeal crisp and fancy molasses custard from Thanksgiving

What happened to the flying giggy thingy?

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

1) The maths is irrelevant. REr's can't have it both ways. Either the sun is intense enough to bounce light off and therefore so is a laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
Sun 32,000-130,000 lux
You can buy a little laser with 200,000 lux yourself.

*sigh*  The sun's light that you are referring to has already passed through earth's atmosphere.  The laser light needs to travel through the earth's atmosphere, bounce off the moon and then return through the atmosphere.  The two are hardly compatible.  But I suspect that you already knew that.

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 03:36:01 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

1) The maths is irrelevant. REr's can't have it both ways. Either the sun is intense enough to bounce light off and therefore so is a laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
Sun 32,000-130,000 lux
You can buy a little laser with 200,000 lux yourself.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5100
Finally this does not discredit bioluminescence. The moon can be shiny and biolumiescent. You still get a return regardless of what those pesky moon mites are up to.

A laser would be powerful enough not to need a mirror.
2) Well you would agree that firing a laser randomly at the moon would make the resulting beam bounce off in all directions? Well one of those directions will be back to earth, where you could get your reading.

1) Explain to me why you're comparing the Sun's lux on Earth to a laser from Earth. You seem to be rambling.

James says the Moon shines by only its own light. You say both. Is he right or are you?

2) Please provide evidence that one of those directions would be precisely back at the detector and with the specific wavelength expected and recorded.

1) One hypothesis does not discount the other. I am saying that the moon reflects light with you agree with, and so a laser does not require a mirror. Whether it reflects the sun's light or glows bioluminescently is another matter, but irrelevant in this context.

2) I am not a scientist. I am an unemployed bum who now whiles his hours away on FES. Why wouldn't one of those directions be back to earth? Can you prove it would never come back to earth? That would be an odd phenomenon. They have been measuring this since 1969. With all those returns, you can bet some would randomly come back when they fire thousands every second.

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:46:58 PM

Quote from: ClockTower on October 15, 2010, 03:36:01 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 15, 2010, 03:19:06 PM

1) The maths is irrelevant. REr's can't have it both ways. Either the sun is intense enough to bounce light off and therefore so is a laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
Sun 32,000-130,000 lux
You can buy a little laser with 200,000 lux yourself.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5100
Finally this does not discredit bioluminescence. The moon can be shiny and biolumiescent. You still get a return regardless of what those pesky moon mites are up to.

A laser would be powerful enough not to need a mirror.
2) Well you would agree that firing a laser randomly at the moon would make the resulting beam bounce off in all directions? Well one of those directions will be back to earth, where you could get your reading.

1) Explain to me why you're comparing the Sun's lux on Earth to a laser from Earth. You seem to be rambling.

James says the Moon shines by only its own light. You say both. Is he right or are you?

2) Please provide evidence that one of those directions would be precisely back at the detector and with the specific wavelength expected and recorded.

1) One hypothesis does not discount the other. I am saying that the moon reflects light with you agree with, and so a laser does not require a mirror. Whether it reflects the sun's light or glows bioluminescently is another matter, but irrelevant in this context.

2) I am not a scientist. I am an unemployed bum who now whiles his hours away on FES. Why wouldn't one of those directions be back to earth? Can you prove it would never come back to earth? That would be an odd phenomenon. They have been measuring this since 1969. With all those returns, you can bet some would randomly come back when they fire thousands every second.

1) Yes, James theory is incompatible with yours. He says adamantly that the Moon shines by its own light and nothing more. You say the Sun illuminates it. Is he wrong or are you?
2) It's your claim, but we never expect a FEDA to back up their claims. I guess you just fail like so many other FEDAs before you.

Perhaps you didn't understand correctly, when aimed at a random spot on the moon's surface, NO photons were reflected back to the detector. A mirror is necessary.