Simple Test

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Raist

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #120 on: October 05, 2010, 10:37:44 PM »
It is impossible to accelerate 9.86 m/s/s when you are less than 9.86 m/s away from c.
I cannot believe you, who have been reading the explanations about Relativity in this forum for years, make such an obvious mistake.

Accelerating 9.86 m/s/s with respect to the frame of reference of the accelerated object is perfectly possible if you can find enough energy to do so, even if you are less than 1 millimeter per second under the speed of light with respect to the frame of reference that is static in this example. This comes from the very definition of Special Relativity.

On the other hand, we accelerate subatomic particles all the time in particle accelerators, and need all the energy that a small city uses, just to accelerate a few subatomic particles to a measly 0.90c or so. Accelerating to just 0.999c the whole flat Earth is already impossible without frying it, and that is just the first 3 years or so of the 4500000000 years that the flat Earth has been supposedly accelerating.

By the way, if you are going to say that Earth cannot continue to accelerate because it is already so close to the speed of light, you are killing your own hypothesis.

I never said that. You never claimed it was accelerating it the same amount within its own FOR. If that was your question, then here is my answer "The exact same amount of energy it took to accelerate it for the first second of its existence."

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zork

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #121 on: October 05, 2010, 11:25:18 PM »
Anyways, how would it me impossible? From what I gather the largest objects are against the energy it would require. If UA doesn't require energy just as gravity doesn't, there isn't a problem.
How do you know that gravity doesn't require energy? And just look at the effects which both of them should do. Gravity doesn't accelerate thousands of tons piece of rock constantly at 9.8 m/s/s but the UA does. So, there is quite a big difference how they work and there is no such a long period with acceleration and the speed near the light speed which can be achieved without any energy. Hell, you can't eve move your hand without spending some energy. In what bases do you claim then that moving the earth doesn't need any energy?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Raist

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2010, 12:13:41 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.

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zork

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2010, 12:30:18 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.
Really? Accelerates?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

Re: Simple Test
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2010, 12:38:59 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.

I will remember to make sure that I lose a day or two next year in the calender to compensate :P
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Parsifal

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2010, 02:20:54 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.

I will remember to make sure that I lose a day or two next year in the calender to compensate :P

Why?
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Kira-SY

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2010, 03:06:13 AM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.
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Parsifal

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2010, 03:14:40 AM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

No.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.

It is a bad choice of word in the context of general relativity, but not in the context of Newtonian gravitation and not for the reason you and TheJackel are suggesting.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 03:16:13 AM by Parsifal »
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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trig

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2010, 06:24:47 AM »
It is impossible to accelerate 9.86 m/s/s when you are less than 9.86 m/s away from c.
I cannot believe you, who have been reading the explanations about Relativity in this forum for years, make such an obvious mistake.

Accelerating 9.86 m/s/s with respect to the frame of reference of the accelerated object is perfectly possible if you can find enough energy to do so, even if you are less than 1 millimeter per second under the speed of light with respect to the frame of reference that is static in this example. This comes from the very definition of Special Relativity.

On the other hand, we accelerate subatomic particles all the time in particle accelerators, and need all the energy that a small city uses, just to accelerate a few subatomic particles to a measly 0.90c or so. Accelerating to just 0.999c the whole flat Earth is already impossible without frying it, and that is just the first 3 years or so of the 4500000000 years that the flat Earth has been supposedly accelerating.

By the way, if you are going to say that Earth cannot continue to accelerate because it is already so close to the speed of light, you are killing your own hypothesis.

I never said that. You never claimed it was accelerating it the same amount within its own FOR. If that was your question, then here is my answer "The exact same amount of energy it took to accelerate it for the first second of its existence."
So, now we are not talking about a dark energy accelerating us up, but we are now some sort of rocket, pushing itself into whatever is "up". I agree with you that this is a better solution, if one impossible solution can be better than another.

In your new model you are not just placing a frame of reference in another place, you have to carry with your flat Earth all the mass that you will convert to kinetic energy and the device that will produce this conversion.

And a mighty device it is! I had calculated many months ago that, given a perfect device with a perfect efficiency, it would have to produce the equivalent of 3 Hiroshima-sized bombs per day for every square meter of the Earth's surface!

Now, as you can imagine, the amount of mass needed to fuel such an incredible sustained push for 4.5 billion years is enormous, and it has to be carried along with us, so your flat Earth was enormously heavier when it started. Your answer ("The exact same amount of energy it took to accelerate it for the first second of its existence") is just as bad as the previous one.

And the problems with your new "solution" keep mounting. How on Earth can we have a production of energy that is bigger than a star's just below us and not get fried by it? How can it be that there is not even a small leakage of all that energy in the upward direction, that we can detect? Why don't we see some huge halo all around the Ice Wall? Why would all that energy "choose" to dissipate in the "down" direction?

You see, science is not about fancy, unsupported mathematical games. You cannot just move a Frame of Reference to where you like it to be and recalculate the equations you want to recalculate. You have a complete model and you have to respect the whole model. Or do you really believe I can send a one kilogram rocket into space just by placing the fuel in my cellar and the Frame of Reference on the rocket?

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trig

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2010, 06:32:49 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.
As I explained a few post before, This is acceleration, but the mean distance travelled is zero. The planet goes back to the exact same place with the exact same velocity after each orbit, so the total work done is zero.

Physics is about real models, and real maths. You are trying to make fancy word games sound like Physics.

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trig

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2010, 06:40:11 AM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.
Accelerates is the correct word, but you have to remember that acceleration is a 3-dimensional vector, not a scalar.

The total kinetic energy of the system of a planet and a star is constant, therefore there is no contradiction here, unlike in the case of UA.

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Kira-SY

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2010, 07:04:06 AM »
uhm, I think I get it.
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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2010, 07:05:25 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.
Please reference that sticky on gravity. You've confused GR principles with Newtonian. It's an easy mistake, but in GR an orbit does not involve acceleration. The rock is traveling in a straight line and is not accelerated.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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zork

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2010, 07:45:20 AM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.
Accelerates is the correct word, but you have to remember that acceleration is a 3-dimensional vector, not a scalar.

The total kinetic energy of the system of a planet and a star is constant, therefore there is no contradiction here, unlike in the case of UA.
Just the "accelerates" may be the correct word but by default it instantly brings to the mind the increasing speed which is not the case for the orbiting object. I guess the more accurate would be if it was specified with the centripetal or some other word.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2010, 07:49:21 AM »
No it is the correct word. Acceleration means a change in velocity.

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Username

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2010, 07:51:36 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.
Please reference that sticky on gravity. You've confused GR principles with Newtonian. It's an easy mistake, but in GR an orbit does not involve acceleration. The rock is traveling in a straight line and is not accelerated.
Clocktower is correct, however from our point of view, a Newtonian view like I was talking about earlier, it appears to us as it is accelerating.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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trig

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2010, 11:35:10 AM »
Actually gravity does accelerate a giant piece of rock constantly. It's called orbit.
Please reference that sticky on gravity. You've confused GR principles with Newtonian. It's an easy mistake, but in GR an orbit does not involve acceleration. The rock is traveling in a straight line and is not accelerated.
Clocktower is correct, however from our point of view, a Newtonian view like I was talking about earlier, it appears to us as it is accelerating.
You are still beating a dead horse. In Newtonian Physics, which are perfectly good for this example, the total change in speed and in direction after one orbit is zero, and you can see that because the planet is back in the location and with the speed and with the direction of movement it had before the orbit.

The real issue here is that the UA "hypothesis" is completely different. The flat Earth is not on the same location or has the same speed as it had a second ago, ever again, and therefore it is changing kinetic energy every second. And that requires energy, which if you bother to calculate, is absolutely enormous.

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Raist

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2010, 06:36:40 PM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.

Accelerate does not mean quicker. It means a change in velocity. Velocity contains a direction. Moving in a circle is constantly changing the direction of your velocity.

Therefore gravity is accelerating the Earth in RE theory. Have any of you taken even a basic physics course?

Re: Simple Test
« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2010, 06:54:59 PM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.

Accelerate does not mean quicker. It means a change in velocity. Velocity contains a direction. Moving in a circle is constantly changing the direction of your velocity.

Therefore gravity is accelerating the Earth in RE theory. Have any of you taken even a basic physics course?
I have to correct you here, Raist. In GR, gravity is not a force, and it does not require a force or energy. The Earth in FE moves in a straight line about the Sun, and its velocity doesn't change.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Raist

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Re: Simple Test
« Reply #139 on: October 06, 2010, 06:56:51 PM »
I guess: Accelerates = Quicker = Less time to orbit = Less days.

Accelerates is a very bad word to use there.

Accelerate does not mean quicker. It means a change in velocity. Velocity contains a direction. Moving in a circle is constantly changing the direction of your velocity.

Therefore gravity is accelerating the Earth in RE theory. Have any of you taken even a basic physics course?
I have to correct you here, Raist. In GR, gravity is not a force, and it does not require a force or energy. The Earth in FE moves in a straight line about the Sun, and its velocity doesn't change.

Using a non inertial frame of reference yes.