FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.

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parsec

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2010, 09:55:50 PM »
ITT: REers preaching pseudoscience.

Please justify this statement.

Put a cookie sheet in a hot 350 degree oven for 20 mins and then pull it out with your bare hands. You will quickly learn exactly how the distribution of thermodynamic energy is related to temperature. Do you even know the laws of thermodynamics? Perhaps the difference between an closed system and an open system would be a good start for you :)

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TheJackel

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2010, 10:33:27 PM »
ITT: REers preaching pseudoscience.

Please justify this statement.

Put a cookie sheet in a hot 350 degree oven for 20 mins and then pull it out with your bare hands. You will quickly learn exactly how the distribution of thermodynamic energy is related to temperature. Do you even know the laws of thermodynamics? Perhaps the difference between an closed system and an open system would be a good start for you :)


Ahh, the intentionally stupid argument by Parsec. Good to see that you can't handle the subject so you resort to intentional ignorance as a back-up argument for your failure 8)   
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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parsec

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2010, 10:35:01 PM »
lolwut? It is evident that neither of you 'experts' was able to come up with a straightforward answer to a simple thermodynamics question. Instead you started baking cookies. I don't see what this has to do with a failure of my argument.

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TheJackel

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2010, 11:01:24 PM »
lolwut? It is evident that neither of you 'experts' was able to come up with a straightforward answer to a simple thermodynamics question. Instead you started baking cookies. I don't see what this has to do with a failure of my argument.

Nobody other than yourself said anything about baking cookies.. Do pay attention. And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics. Do learn the thermodynamic laws. Intentional stupidity is not an argument or an answer.

FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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parsec

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #64 on: October 06, 2010, 11:03:00 PM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

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TheJackel

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2010, 11:11:31 PM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

No substitute or fallacy was made. Please refrain from making senseless deflective arguments. And please refrain from spamming the thread with intentional ignorance.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:15:50 PM by TheJackel »
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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parsec

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2010, 11:13:58 PM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

No substitute or fallacy was made. Please refrain from making senseless deflective arguments.

It seems your lucidity is questionable. Please visit a psychiatrist.

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TheJackel

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2010, 11:21:13 PM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

No substitute or fallacy was made. Please refrain from making senseless deflective arguments.

It seems your lucidity is questionable. Please visit a psychiatrist.

Was that supposed to be clever? Damn, failure must be your life's achievement Parsec  8)  What-ever you need to make yourself feel like an internet tough guy lol.

FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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parsec

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2010, 11:33:23 PM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

No substitute or fallacy was made. Please refrain from making senseless deflective arguments.

It seems your lucidity is questionable. Please visit a psychiatrist.

Was that supposed to be clever? Damn, failure must be your life's achievement Parsec  8)  What-ever you need to make yourself feel like an internet tough guy lol.



I will not be involved in your irrational discussions anymore. My question remains unanswered.

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ClockTower

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2010, 12:03:12 AM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

No substitute or fallacy was made. Please refrain from making senseless deflective arguments.

It seems your lucidity is questionable. Please visit a psychiatrist.
You attack the person and not the argument. Please refrain from such fallacies.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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TheJackel

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2010, 12:17:41 AM »
And for the record the act of baking cookies is another prime example to the answer of how heat relates directly to thermodynamics.

Please refrain from the fallacy of substituting the thesis.

No substitute or fallacy was made. Please refrain from making senseless deflective arguments.

It seems your lucidity is questionable. Please visit a psychiatrist.

Was that supposed to be clever? Damn, failure must be your life's achievement Parsec  8)  What-ever you need to make yourself feel like an internet tough guy lol.



I will not be involved in your irrational discussions anymore. My question remains unanswered.

If you did not comprehend the answers given, then you are in no position to be in the argument in regards to thermodynamics. You are dismissed. Please feel free to exit the discussion, and stop spamming the fora with circular religious dogma.

FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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zork

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2010, 01:19:37 AM »
My question remains unanswered.
I guess you just don't have the skill for wording correct questions.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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vhu9644

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2010, 03:02:46 AM »
you want a answer, ok

thermodynamic energy:the total of the kinetic energy due to the motion of particles

Temperature: a measure of the average energy of motion, or kinetic energy, of particles in matter

you get it?
people i respect: Ski, Oracle, PizzaPlanet, Wendy

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trig

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2010, 02:17:26 PM »
you want a answer, ok

thermodynamic energy:the total of the kinetic energy due to the motion of particles

Temperature: a measure of the average energy of motion, or kinetic energy, of particles in matter

you get it?
Now we can repeat the true issues that were derailed by the phony "please explain thermodynamics" ruse.

The Sun is still moving from about 5000 kilometers to about 13000 kilometers during one day, so we should see a dramatic decrease of energy received an hour before sundown compared with noon. Not just a 20% or so, but a 75% or so of decrease. And if the "bendy light" is true, it should be more like a 90%. Everything in the so-called FET points to the poles and/or ice wall being very close to absolute zero temperature, or -273 degrees Celsius. (about -460 Fahrenheit).

So, FE'rs, go for your cameras, measure the amount of sunlight at noon and mid-afternoon, and go for your Nobel Prizes. It is that simple, and I can give you exact instructions to do the measurement.

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parsec

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2010, 05:34:23 PM »

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TrollCrusher

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2010, 01:58:20 PM »
How many peer reviewed papers on this subject do you have in your possession James? I mean from all "corners" of the world. Pun intended, not just in your little group.

Is the sun just a dwarf star for short??? we have evidence saying it isn't. You ppl claim to know more than you're capable of.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2010, 07:39:26 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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markjo

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2010, 09:05:57 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.

Dwarf stars are much smaller than 32 miles?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2010, 10:31:23 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.

Dwarf stars are much smaller than 32 miles?

Well, sure, in the FE model.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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TrollCrusher

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2010, 08:39:50 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.

Dwarf stars are much smaller than 32 miles?

Well, sure, in the FE model.

dwarf stars wouldn't be dwarf stars then....you're trying 2 add modern science to your "theory", how amusing...

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ClockTower

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2010, 08:46:50 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.

Dwarf stars are much smaller than 32 miles?

Well, sure, in the FE model.

dwarf stars wouldn't be dwarf stars then....you're trying 2 add modern science to your "theory", how amusing...
Roundy, aren't you arguing two different models at once? Last I pinned you down you supported JD's model of modern RET values of size and distances to the stars (except the Sun). Now you want dwarf stars to be smaller than 32 miles across but yet light years away. Haven't we educated you enough on optics by now for you to realize that can't work?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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TrollCrusher

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2010, 08:51:53 PM »
that's quite embarassing....really, as if there hasn't been enough of that in these forums.


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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2010, 09:00:57 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.

Dwarf stars are much smaller than 32 miles?

Well, sure, in the FE model.

dwarf stars wouldn't be dwarf stars then....you're trying 2 add modern science to your "theory", how amusing...
Roundy, aren't you arguing two different models at once? Last I pinned you down you supported JD's model of modern RET values of size and distances to the stars (except the Sun). Now you want dwarf stars to be smaller than 32 miles across but yet light years away. Haven't we educated you enough on optics by now for you to realize that can't work?

What do you mean?  We were discussing the model with the 32-mile sun in this thread.   
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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ClockTower

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2010, 09:04:14 PM »
Is the sun just a dwarf star for short???

No, dwarf stars are much smaller.

Dwarf stars are much smaller than 32 miles?

Well, sure, in the FE model.

dwarf stars wouldn't be dwarf stars then....you're trying 2 add modern science to your "theory", how amusing...
Roundy, aren't you arguing two different models at once? Last I pinned you down you supported JD's model of modern RET values of size and distances to the stars (except the Sun). Now you want dwarf stars to be smaller than 32 miles across but yet light years away. Haven't we educated you enough on optics by now for you to realize that can't work?

What do you mean?  We were discussing the model with the 32-mile sun in this thread.   
So how far away are the stars in this model? Do you support any model that comes along or just JD's?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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markjo

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2010, 11:35:09 PM »
We were discussing the model with the 32-mile sun in this thread.   

Which 32 mile sun would that be; the massice disc held aloft by photoelectric suspension, the quark-antiquark stable reaction or the bioluminescent sun?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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ERTW

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #85 on: November 14, 2010, 12:44:19 AM »
You conveniently used the 3100 mile "distance" for your calculations, but ignored that the mean distance, say, to Antarctica, would be ( (4988 km)2 + (12732 km)2 )1/2 = 13674 km. on a Flat Earth.

Furthermore, the surface of Antarctica is irradiated at a mean angle of  arctan(4988 / 12732) = 21 degrees.

Combining the two factors, any given patch of the surface in Antarctica would receive (3100/13674)2 x 4988 / 12732 times the energy, or 0.02 times the energy that a place near the Equator would receive at noon.

Converting this to temperatures, with an average temperature on Earth of about 287 degrees Kelvin, the temperature of Antarctica would be about (0.02 x 287) = 6 degrees Kelvin, or minus 267 degrees Celsius.

Considering the fact that some other heat sources are also in place, you would still have liquid nitrogen pools on top of Antarctica's ice.

PS. Whether you decide to use the 12732 km between the poles that I used, or any other calculation used in this forum, it is OK with me. It will not change the conclusion.

How did you convert energy to temperature?
You should learn the very first thing about thermodynamics if you are discussing about it. Zero caloric energy is the same as zero degrees Kelvin. From there, temperature and energy are proportional.

Please link a reference where this term is being discussed.


Pedantry aside, Parsec is correct with his concern about the result. You can't somehow convert from energy directly to tempurature. You have to look at the heat transfer situation. On a flat Earth there would be transverse heat transfer through the atmosphere, and the heat transfer from the colder parts of the atmosphere to space would be less, which will make the resulting tempurature more complicated than simply looking at the incident radiant energy.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 12:47:55 AM by ERTW »
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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trig

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2010, 02:44:09 AM »
You conveniently used the 3100 mile "distance" for your calculations, but ignored that the mean distance, say, to Antarctica, would be ( (4988 km)2 + (12732 km)2 )1/2 = 13674 km. on a Flat Earth.

Furthermore, the surface of Antarctica is irradiated at a mean angle of  arctan(4988 / 12732) = 21 degrees.

Combining the two factors, any given patch of the surface in Antarctica would receive (3100/13674)2 x 4988 / 12732 times the energy, or 0.02 times the energy that a place near the Equator would receive at noon.

Converting this to temperatures, with an average temperature on Earth of about 287 degrees Kelvin, the temperature of Antarctica would be about (0.02 x 287) = 6 degrees Kelvin, or minus 267 degrees Celsius.

Considering the fact that some other heat sources are also in place, you would still have liquid nitrogen pools on top of Antarctica's ice.

PS. Whether you decide to use the 12732 km between the poles that I used, or any other calculation used in this forum, it is OK with me. It will not change the conclusion.

How did you convert energy to temperature?
You should learn the very first thing about thermodynamics if you are discussing about it. Zero caloric energy is the same as zero degrees Kelvin. From there, temperature and energy are proportional.

Please link a reference where this term is being discussed.


Pedantry aside, Parsec is correct with his concern about the result. You can't somehow convert from energy directly to tempurature. You have to look at the heat transfer situation. On a flat Earth there would be transverse heat transfer through the atmosphere, and the heat transfer from the colder parts of the atmosphere to space would be less, which will make the resulting tempurature more complicated than simply looking at the incident radiant energy.
It is true that there are more ways in which the heat is transferred, but the calculations of the heat produced by the incoming radiation of the Sun is basically correct. The fact that heat is transferred back to space is not relevant, since it is proportional to the temperature of the surface that is radiating it back, and space is very close to absolute zero temperature. You can adjust the calculations above a little bit, since the temperature of space is about 3 degrees above absolute zero. The chemical composition of the surface would make a small difference also, but white ice is one of the substances that would radiate more energy back to outer space.

What makes a really big difference is the sea currents, which could make a substantial difference if running water could get close to a surface that is that cold. In fact, water is the reason why the poles are not as cold as a calculation like the one above would indicate in the real case of a spherical Earth. But, again, running water would not be able to get close to the frozen nitrogen of the South "pole" in the FE "model".

Anyhow, each one of us can make a simple experiment with almost any digital camera to measure the incident light from the Sun at different times of the day, and see that it does not change in the dramatic way that can be predicted through the FE "model". The sunlight (and the other wavelengths of its radiation) vary only slightly from noon to one hour before dusk if there are no clouds. This result has also been replicated by all those who have designed and deployed solar panels.

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ERTW

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2010, 04:45:43 AM »
Just to be clear, how are you getting frozen nitrogen in Antartica? The delta T between the ground and space may be about 273 degrees, but there is a large atmosphere in between that has a huge thermal resistance, because of the low density. The air near the surface of the Earth will do a much better job of convecting heat laterally, and the ground will store thermal energy from the previous day. These are the same reasons why the dark side of the planet in RET stays warm. In FET the sun moves around and partially illuminates Antartica once in a while just like RET. It is pretty difficult to say that heat transfer in concept alone defeats any possible FET.
The funny thing is, to be serious FET would have to propose a model of how the Sun might move, and that model could be tested. For now there is no serious FET model so there is nothing to apply math to! Until then there is no FET to really disprove, more like FEC "flat earth concept". Because of this it is so easy for them to keep changing the position and size of everything. There is no real model, only bits and peices that don't fit together.
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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trig

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2010, 08:02:45 AM »
Just to be clear, how are you getting frozen nitrogen in Antartica? The delta T between the ground and space may be about 273 degrees, but there is a large atmosphere in between that has a huge thermal resistance, because of the low density. The air near the surface of the Earth will do a much better job of convecting heat laterally, and the ground will store thermal energy from the previous day. These are the same reasons why the dark side of the planet in RET stays warm. In FET the sun moves around and partially illuminates Antartica once in a while just like RET. It is pretty difficult to say that heat transfer in concept alone defeats any possible FET.
The funny thing is, to be serious FET would have to propose a model of how the Sun might move, and that model could be tested. For now there is no serious FET model so there is nothing to apply math to! Until then there is no FET to really disprove, more like FEC "flat earth concept". Because of this it is so easy for them to keep changing the position and size of everything. There is no real model, only bits and peices that don't fit together.
Your point is very important. If we compare, say, the Earth around the Equator and the Earth around the South Pole, both lose energy at a rate that is proportional to the current temperature and thermal conductivity and inversely proportional to the greenhouse effect. Whatever these parameters are, the thermal conductivity and the greenhouse effect are similar everywhere on Earth since all parts of the atmosphere have about the same gases in the same proportions.

But because the loss of heat is proportional to the temperature and the temperature is proportional to the irradiated energy from the Sun, the average temperature at the Equator and at the South Pole are both proportional to the irradiated energy from the Sun. Both could be a lot higher, as we see in Venus, or a lot lower, as we see in Mars. But in both cases it is proportional to the irradiated energy from the Sun.

Your concern would be justified if somehow the greenhouse effect or the thermal conductivity of the atmosphere were substantially different in different parts of the planet, but this is not the case. Also, the average temperatures of each part of Earth has had millions of years to stabilize.

And yes, instead of a model from which predictions can be made, FE'rs revel in their ability to change their "models" as fast as anyone can analyze them, making predictions hard and lame excuses easy. But thermodynamics give no breaks to the sloppy scientist.

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ClockTower

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Re: FE Model of a Nuclear Sun is false.
« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2010, 09:05:01 AM »
And yes, instead of a model from which predictions can be made, FE'rs revel in their ability to change their "models" as fast as anyone can analyze them, making predictions hard and lame excuses easy. But thermodynamics give no breaks to the sloppy scientist.
trig, great job. You made your point excellently.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards