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#### EnCrypto

• 236
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2006, 01:14:28 PM »
Quote from: "Caprice"
All objects with mass have gravity. If you want to argue otherwise, you need proof. Can you name any objects which have been proven not to have gravity?

Playing Devil's Advocate, can you prove that all objects with mass have gravity?

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#### Erasmus

• The Elder Ones
• 4242
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2006, 01:51:01 PM »
Modern physics recognizes three varieties of mass.

Inertial mass is the m in F = ma.  That is, it describes how difficult it is to change an object's velocity.

Passive gravitational mass is the m in W = mg.  It describes the force on an object in a gravitational field of a given strength.

Active gravitational mass is the M in -GM/r.  It describes the strength of the gravitational field emanated by an object.

Newtonian gravitation assumes without proof that these three masses are the same for every object in the universe.  General relativity redefines gravity so that these three masses are tautologically equivalent.

However, there seems to be no naturally essential reason that these masses should be equal.  In other words, there is no well established theory  of physics that does not directly define these quantities but that you can use to prove that they are equal, unless that theory simply redefines gravity with the intention of ensuring that the quantities will be equal.

Given that, it seems reasonable for FE theory to be just as arbitrary: i.e. to assert that some objects in the universe have active gravitational mass and some have passive gravitational mass, and that while those sets overlap they certainly are not identical, nor do they include the entire universe.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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#### Mephistopheles

• 892
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2006, 02:27:15 PM »
Quote from: "EnCrypto"
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
The very fact of an occurance in one object does not, alone, prove the same occurance in a similar object.

To be fair, you are kind of leading him on. I get what you're saying, but you're (possibly intentionally) not saying it clearly.

Which is to say that the presence of gravity may not be dependant on mass, but on something wholly different that is present in the moon or other celestial bodies, but not present in Earth.

A true physicist could thoroughly explain how wrong this is, but the folks around here are relatively lame, and so it's a point that I'm willing to let go of, and put more focus on points that haven't been addressed in a satisfactory manner. And me letting go of this does give insight to where I've set the bar for satisfactory, so none of that "No answer will be satisfactory to you!" hogwash.

I did not intend on leading anyone on or being unclear.  It was simply not being understood that gravity was not the central issue, merely the logical argument behind it.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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#### socialaztec

• 92
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2006, 02:29:53 PM »
No one has answered the original question of what causes gravity in a FE universe.

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#### Mephistopheles

• 892
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2006, 02:31:32 PM »
Most FE'ers do not believe in gravity or have a separate belief system reguarding it.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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#### socialaztec

• 92
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2006, 03:12:21 PM »
Do tell of this seperate belief system. It says in the FAQ that the sun and moon have gravity.

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#### Erasmus

• The Elder Ones
• 4242
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2006, 04:19:55 PM »
FEers do not necessarily deny gravity; however, they deny that gravity is universal in the Newtonian sense.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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#### Caprice

• 27
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2006, 07:34:07 PM »
Quote from: "EnCrypto"
Quote from: "Caprice"
All objects with mass have gravity. If you want to argue otherwise, you need proof. Can you name any objects which have been proven not to have gravity?

Playing Devil's Advocate, can you prove that all objects with mass have gravity?

Of course I personally can't prove it, but tests performed on ANY object, including planets and stars, have shown that they all fit perfectly into this formula (taken from another site):

Quote
The standard formula for gravity is:

Gravitational force = (G * m1 * m2) / (d2)

where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects for which you are calculating the force, and d is the distance between the centers of gravity of the two masses.

It is fair to assume that this law holds true across the universe. The laws of physics don't apply just in select regions.

As I said before, people are perfectly entitled to dispute this if they want, but you need proof to do that. There are ridiculous amounts of proof that support this theory, yet not a SINGLE PIECE that disproves it. Guesswork and heresay are not proof. I could say that cars are actually made from chocolate, not metal. Can you PROVE that I'm wrong, or can you simply post websites that say the opposite? Exactly.

#### dysfunction

• The Elder Ones
• 2261
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2006, 09:42:21 PM »
It's easy to say that not all objects with mass have gravity; however the fact is that when we observe any of the other planets, we see that the strength of their gravity is in fact directly proportional to their mass; so objects with mass do not merely have gravity, but mass actually causes gravity. Therefore, unless you can come up with a complete new theory of gravity, the point that all objects with mass have gravity stands.
the cake is a lie

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#### Erasmus

• The Elder Ones
• 4242
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2006, 08:43:46 PM »
Quote from: "dysfunction"
however the fact is that when we observe any of the other planets, we see that the strength of their gravity is in fact directly proportional to their mass;

Pray, how do you measure the masses of the other planets?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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#### Caprice

• 27
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2006, 10:25:02 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Pray, how do you measure the masses of the other planets?

The same way that you can measure the mass of the earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity

Or if you don't want to read about theory, here are 18.2 million sites that explain it in simple terms:

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#### Yardstick2006

• 280
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2006, 12:45:28 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
FEers do not necessarily deny gravity; however, they deny that gravity is universal in the Newtonian sense.

Liar.
quote="Dogplatter"]
Penguins were actually created in the 1960's by Russian scientists who combined the DNA of otters and birds.  [/quote]

LOL

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#### qwerty789

• 329
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2006, 11:52:43 AM »
Quote from: "Caprice"

The same way that you can measure the mass of the earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity

Or if you don't want to read about theory, here are 18.2 million sites that explain it in simple terms:

From this, I've gathered that you haven't the slightest clue on what you're talking about.

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#### Erasmus

• The Elder Ones
• 4242
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2006, 12:18:24 PM »
Quote from: "Caprice"
The same way that you can measure the mass of the earth.

Lemme guess.  It goes something like, "Here's this set of equations which I promise describe the way gravity and mass and mechanics are related, and if you just use them and do some measurements and plug in some numbers for gravity and mechanics (which I will also provide) then you can solve for mass."

Gotcha.  Way to use a theory to prove itself.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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#### semperround

• 2903
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2006, 05:24:52 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Caprice"
The same way that you can measure the mass of the earth.

Lemme guess.  It goes something like, "Here's this set of equations which I promise describe the way gravity and mass and mechanics are related, and if you just use them and do some measurements and plug in some numbers for gravity and mechanics (which I will also provide) then you can solve for mass."

Gotcha.  Way to use a theory to prove itself.

If you're gonna be sarcastic please divert it to the angry ranting section. This forum is for serious debate.
an vir

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#### Rick_James

• The Elder Ones
• 4311
• Rick <3 Gayer
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2006, 07:24:12 PM »
Quote from: "semperround"
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Caprice"
The same way that you can measure the mass of the earth.

Lemme guess.  It goes something like, "Here's this set of equations which I promise describe the way gravity and mass and mechanics are related, and if you just use them and do some measurements and plug in some numbers for gravity and mechanics (which I will also provide) then you can solve for mass."

Gotcha.  Way to use a theory to prove itself.

If you're gonna be sarcastic please divert it to the angry ranting section. This forum is for serious debate.

a) That was justified.
b) As site admin, I think he can do what he wants....