The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET

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The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« on: August 27, 2010, 11:53:19 PM »
Tom Bishop says that it's circular, without logic or evidence. The FAQ presents several models for maps of the FE. None though have the consensus of FE. Indeed there is no standard theory or model, let alone a map. Lord Wilmore inanely supports a two-pole map that deserves nothing but ridicule, especially with its magical jumping Sun.

So how do we deal with a theory that can't accomplish what cartographers have centuries ago? I guess we make some assumptions. Let's assume that the most accepted model, and the one to me that makes the most sense, is the "U. N. Logo" projection.

We know based on experience that the Sun shines 12 hours everywhere on the Earth on the equinoxes (I do understand that there is some variation due to the lensing affect of the atmosphere, but please allow a small license.) The Sun on that day rises for all locations, but two, due east and set due west. (The observers at both poles see the Sun at the horizon all day.). Now what is the shape of the sunlit area on these days? Why it's a semicircle with the straight edge the only visible edge of the sunlit portion. It's not circular.

How about during the Northern Hemidisc's Summer? Again it's not a circle. Though it is convex, and arguably elliptical.

How about during the Southern Hemidisc's Summer? Again it's not a circle. This time it is concave, and curved in most areas, the wrong direction to match the evidence.

If this weren't enough, the evidence shows darkness where the FET requires light in many cases.

Conclusion? The edge of the sunlit area is not circular, as FEers faced with photo evidence of the Earth try to dodge the truth.

FET fails miserably, again.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Lorddave

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 02:04:25 AM »
http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Central/d/-6/java

That shows the lit areas vs dark areas at any given time.  Pretty nifty I think since it more or less requires FET to create that exact area using their sun on a flat disk.  A feat that is impossible.

I wish I could find a post by a Flat Earther who tried to make a 3D model.  He said he was having trouble getting the "sun" to light the correct area.  He never posted again.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 02:08:44 AM »
http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Central/d/-6/java

That shows the lit areas vs dark areas at any given time.  Pretty nifty I think since it more or less requires FET to create that exact area using their sun on a flat disk.  A feat that is impossible.

I wish I could find a post by a Flat Earther who tried to make a 3D model.  He said he was having trouble getting the "sun" to light the correct area.  He never posted again.
Kudos! I really wish we had a program to show the sunlit area on top of their models. I did a little on LW's and couldn't stop laughing since it was so terribly impossible.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Lorddave

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 03:51:23 AM »
http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Central/d/-6/java

That shows the lit areas vs dark areas at any given time.  Pretty nifty I think since it more or less requires FET to create that exact area using their sun on a flat disk.  A feat that is impossible.

I wish I could find a post by a Flat Earther who tried to make a 3D model.  He said he was having trouble getting the "sun" to light the correct area.  He never posted again.
Kudos! I really wish we had a program to show the sunlit area on top of their models. I did a little on LW's and couldn't stop laughing since it was so terribly impossible.

Well I'd be happy if they HAD a working model.  Just one complete model.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

*

Tom Bishop

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 12:09:01 PM »
So how do we deal with a theory that can't accomplish what cartographers have centuries ago?

Why should we assume that those cartographers were accurate or competent?

For over three hundred years between the 15th and 18th centuries California was depicted in popular maps as being an island off the west coast of North America, despite being colonized by supposedly intelligent men.



Between the 15th and 18th centuries the east and west coasts of North America were studied meticulously. California was colonized by many thousands of Europeans during this age of exploration. Generations lived and died believing that they were living on an island off the coast of America. If the Europeans couldn't figure out that they weren't colonizing an island, what makes you think that they could competently map the world?

Even in today's "modern era", it has been found that maps made in the 1990's show features which don't even exist. Features near very populated areas no less. Islands that don't exist. Shapes of coastlines being entirely different to that portrayed in maps. Distances that don't add up. If you are interested in the subject I'd suggest the book How to Lie with Maps by Mark Monmonier.  

Unless we have direct logs from the actual vessels in question, any map or distance on a map drawn by some cartographer sitting in a closet does not approach evidence in the slightest.

Shipping vessels aren't interested in studying the earth. They're interested in doing their job. It's wrong to assume that if a captain encountered a distance out of the ordinary that he wouldn't assume it due to currents or winds, or that he would make a big deal out of it to the press, or that the press would even care. He is a private individual, unlikely to even care himself, shrugging any discrepancy he may encounter on currents, wind, the quality of his ship engine, or whatever. I don't go around comparing my highway odometer readings to printed maps and contacting the press about it, do you?

That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance an RE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared. First hand accounts of all manner from routes all across the world need to be collected. This was never done to cement the Round Earth model. When building the Round earth model all the data we have comes from a few famous explorers in the past who made a single famous long trip between distant points and filled in the gaps along the way under the assumption of "well if this route took this long, then this other route no one has undertaken must take this long." They get their thoughts visualized and published and the public eats it up as instant fact. No one has collected logs and readings from vessels all round the world to build a single indisputable map of the world. Cartography is built on one assumption after the next from scant data here and there. There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 12:26:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

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General Disarray

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 12:43:28 PM »
That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance a FE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared. First hand accounts of all manner from routes all across the world need to be collected. This was never done to cement the Flat Earth model. When building the Flat earth model all the data we have comes from a very few obscure charlatans in the past who made a single error-filled book.

Fix'd. Look forward to reading your published findings.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

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Lorddave

  • 18139
Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 02:06:56 PM »
So how do we deal with a theory that can't accomplish what cartographers have centuries ago?

Why should we assume that those cartographers were accurate or competent?

For over three hundred years between the 15th and 18th centuries California was depicted in popular maps as being an island off the west coast of North America, despite being colonized by supposedly intelligent men.



Between the 15th and 18th centuries the east and west coasts of North America were studied meticulously. California was colonized by many thousands of Europeans during this age of exploration. Generations lived and died believing that they were living on an island off the coast of America. If the Europeans couldn't figure out that they weren't colonizing an island, what makes you think that they could competently map the world?

Even in today's "modern era", it has been found that maps made in the 1990's show features which don't even exist. Features near very populated areas no less. Islands that don't exist. Shapes of coastlines being entirely different to that portrayed in maps. Distances that don't add up. If you are interested in the subject I'd suggest the book How to Lie with Maps by Mark Monmonier.  

Unless we have direct logs from the actual vessels in question, any map or distance on a map drawn by some cartographer sitting in a closet does not approach evidence in the slightest.

Shipping vessels aren't interested in studying the earth. They're interested in doing their job. It's wrong to assume that if a captain encountered a distance out of the ordinary that he wouldn't assume it due to currents or winds, or that he would make a big deal out of it to the press, or that the press would even care. He is a private individual, unlikely to even care himself, shrugging any discrepancy he may encounter on currents, wind, the quality of his ship engine, or whatever. I don't go around comparing my highway odometer readings to printed maps and contacting the press about it, do you?

That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance an RE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared. First hand accounts of all manner from routes all across the world need to be collected. This was never done to cement the Round Earth model. When building the Round earth model all the data we have comes from a few famous explorers in the past who made a single famous long trip between distant points and filled in the gaps along the way under the assumption of "well if this route took this long, then this other route no one has undertaken must take this long." They get their thoughts visualized and published and the public eats it up as instant fact. No one has collected logs and readings from vessels all round the world to build a single indisputable map of the world. Cartography is built on one assumption after the next from scant data here and there. There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.

I'm rather surprised that you're saying old maps and Europeans weren't very smart considering that both Flat Earth and EnAG were both products of European Men.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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zork

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 02:16:00 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it. But fact remains that RE map is sufficiently accurate even in small globes and FE still don't have any map. Only disfigured RE map which really isn't theirs but borrowed from RE.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Gigamonsta

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 03:29:07 PM »
That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance a FE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared. First hand accounts of all manner from routes all across the world need to be collected. This was never done to cement the Flat Earth model. When building the Flat earth model all the data we have comes from a very few obscure charlatans in the past who made a single error-filled book.

Fix'd. Look forward to reading your published findings.

published? so u only think that published findings  are worthy of respect?

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trig

  • 2240
Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 03:31:01 PM »
That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance an RE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared.
Tom Bishop has had a few years to compile logs from James Clarke Ross' journals, which I believe he brought to the attention of this forum. They have precise day by day records of his travels around most of Antarctica, and are the source of the supposed insurmountable 150 ft. ice wall  that fascinates Tom so much.

He could transcribe the data of each day of travel and show how, after taking into account the many round trips and north-south and south-north legs, the trip was still about 60,000 miles of west-east travel to circle Antarctica.

Tom Bishop has the first hand accounts, the precise cartographic data, the fact that NASA could not have skewed the information. In short, Tom Bishop has had the exact kind of information he is requiring to show whether Antarctica is much more or less than 30,000 miles to circle. Why does Tom Bishop ask for the data he has had for years a few clicks away?

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Lorddave

  • 18139
Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 03:40:20 PM »
That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance an RE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared.
Tom Bishop has had a few years to compile logs from James Clarke Ross' journals, which I believe he brought to the attention of this forum. They have precise day by day records of his travels around most of Antarctica, and are the source of the supposed insurmountable 150 ft. ice wall  that fascinates Tom so much.

He could transcribe the data of each day of travel and show how, after taking into account the many round trips and north-south and south-north legs, the trip was still about 60,000 miles of west-east travel to circle Antarctica.

Tom Bishop has the first hand accounts, the precise cartographic data, the fact that NASA could not have skewed the information. In short, Tom Bishop has had the exact kind of information he is requiring to show whether Antarctica is much more or less than 30,000 miles to circle. Why does Tom Bishop ask for the data he has had for years a few clicks away?

Because he's lazy?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 04:08:37 PM »
That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance an RE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared.
Tom Bishop has had a few years to compile logs from James Clarke Ross' journals, which I believe he brought to the attention of this forum. They have precise day by day records of his travels around most of Antarctica, and are the source of the supposed insurmountable 150 ft. ice wall  that fascinates Tom so much.

He could transcribe the data of each day of travel and show how, after taking into account the many round trips and north-south and south-north legs, the trip was still about 60,000 miles of west-east travel to circle Antarctica.

Tom Bishop has the first hand accounts, the precise cartographic data, the fact that NASA could not have skewed the information. In short, Tom Bishop has had the exact kind of information he is requiring to show whether Antarctica is much more or less than 30,000 miles to circle. Why does Tom Bishop ask for the data he has had for years a few clicks away?

Because he's lazy?
Because he fears the Truth?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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General Disarray

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 04:11:14 PM »
That's why actual evidence  is needed for any hypothesized distance a FE or otherwise predicts. Not assumption. Logs need to be compiled. Readings need to be compared. First hand accounts of all manner from routes all across the world need to be collected. This was never done to cement the Flat Earth model. When building the Flat earth model all the data we have comes from a very few obscure charlatans in the past who made a single error-filled book.

Fix'd. Look forward to reading your published findings.

published? so u only think that published findings  are worthy of respect?

Did I say that?
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

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Crustinator

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 04:55:39 PM »
Why should we assume that those cartographers were accurate or competent?

Because the only alternative is assuming you're accurate and competent. I'm not ready for that yet Tom.

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markjo

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 05:05:07 PM »
Shipping vessels aren't interested in studying the earth. They're interested in doing their job.

Shipping companies are interested in delivering their cargo in the quickest and most efficient manner possible.  Knowing the true size, shape and layout of the earth would most certainly be of great interest to shipping companies.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Crustinator

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2010, 05:10:37 PM »
Shipping vessels aren't interested in studying the earth. They're interested in doing their job.

Shipping companies are interested in delivering their cargo in the quickest and most efficient manner possible.  Knowing the true size, shape and layout of the earth would most certainly be of great interest to shipping companies.

Also "not dying at sea" used to be a common interest among sailors.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2010, 06:35:16 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it.

I would say that the whole "California is not an island" thing is a pretty major detail to miss.

If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 06:38:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2010, 06:41:10 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it.

I would say that the whole "California is not an island" thing is a pretty major detail to miss.

If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?
You have failed to support your premise that "it took three hundred years to figure out that California wasn't an island". Please do so, or yield.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 06:50:54 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it.

I would say that the whole "California is not an island" thing is a pretty major detail to miss.

If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?
You have failed to support your premise that "it took three hundred years to figure out that California wasn't an island". Please do so, or yield.

Aside from that, I fail to see the reasoning in taking the example of a cartographer centuries in the past to reflect on what we should rely upon today. A is wrong once, therefore A is always wrong. What's the name of that fallacy?
Quote from: Carl Sagan
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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Crustinator

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2010, 06:58:34 PM »
If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?

Truth does not have an expiration date.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 07:50:22 AM by Crustinator »

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markjo

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2010, 07:47:32 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it.

I would say that the whole "California is not an island" thing is a pretty major detail to miss.

If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?

What if it didn't take 300 years to figure out that California wasn't an island?
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_California
The Island of California refers to a long-held European misconception, dating from the 16th century, that California  was not part of mainland North America but rather a large island separated from the continent by a strait now known instead as the Gulf of California.

One of the most famous cartographic errors in history, it was propagated on many maps during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, despite contradictory evidence from various explorers. The legend was initially infused with the idea that California was a terrestrial paradise, like the Garden of Eden or Atlantis.

Also, isn't it interesting that the "Island of California" looks suspiciously like the peninsula of Baja California.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 08:50:36 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Lorddave

  • 18139
Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2010, 08:43:45 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it.

I would say that the whole "California is not an island" thing is a pretty major detail to miss.

If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?

You're contradicting November 17.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

?

zork

  • 3319
Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2010, 11:11:30 PM »
There has never been an undertaking to create an accurate map of the world.
Sure, when you can't refute the fact that the general RE map is sufficiently accurate then go to the details. There is always some place which isn't exactly like it is described in the map and you can always nag about it.

I would say that the whole "California is not an island" thing is a pretty major detail to miss.

If it took three hundred years for explorers and colonists to figure out that California wasn't an island, why should we trust them on anything else?
And how would you know that anything is a island or not a island when all you do is "look out of the windows"? I would say that it's a pretty good example that you must go out there and do some traveling and research and not only sit aside your windows and look out from there. I guess that the mentioned old cartographers was just lazy or prejudiced and didn't want to destroy the "terrestrial paradise" myth.
 And really, what is this trust question? How can you ask if I trust some cartographers who died more than two hundred year ago in current matters? There isn't anything to trust because they are dead and they don't contribute anything to current matters.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Raiku

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2010, 03:12:24 PM »
Side note:

The islands seem too coincidental.  Could this just be an old, inaccurate map, or could the region we know as California changed since back when this map was made?
I guess all humans have mental problems since we believe the Earth exists...

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Horatio

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2010, 03:25:19 PM »
Side note:

The islands seem too coincidental.  Could this just be an old, inaccurate map, or could the region we know as California changed since back when this map was made?

It's not California; it's a map of Baja California.
How dare you have the audacity to demand my deposition. I've never even heard of you.

Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2010, 05:34:48 PM »
I learned this in elementary school.
Baja California was thought to be an island, and no not for 300 years.
And no, not not the California part of the current US

Give it up Mr Bishop.
You can not discredit us few who truly believe.

For love love of god moderators how do we get him banned?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:37:59 PM by iwanttobelieve »

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General Disarray

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Re: The Predicted Shape of the Sunlit Area under FET
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2010, 07:39:00 PM »
For love love of god moderators how do we get him banned?

I suggest a thread in the "Suggestions & Concerns" forum, preferably with several examples of conduct like this. If you can sway enough believers to your cause, you may accomplish what you want.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.