Will I see the back of my head?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2010, 12:39:43 PM »
On a RE, if you stand at the North Pole and observe a ship going due West from there, do you see it moving in a straight line?
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markjo

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2010, 12:52:56 PM »
If light bends, the clauses listed below are premises and conclusions for my OP argument:

Premises:
  • Ship goes straight east along a certain latitude
  • Light travels from the back of the ship to our eyes
  • We always see the back of the ship.
  • Ship is fooled so it begins turning left.

Conclusions:
  • Light bends.
  • Ship traveling east along any latitude returns to same spot after traveling in a complete circle
  • Light traveling east along any latitude returns to same spot after traveling in a complete circle
  • Light very close to the axis of the north pole returns to same spot after traveling in a complete circle
  • I can see the back of my head

Despite the name, lines of latitude are not straight.  They are actually concentric circles with a common center at the north pole.  Light has no reason whatsoever to want to follow these lines of latitude.
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2010, 02:08:46 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

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markjo

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2010, 02:13:20 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

Your premise that you will always see the back of the ship is incorrect.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2010, 02:25:36 PM »
On a RE, if you stand at the North Pole and observe a ship going due West from there, do you see it moving in a straight line?
<sigh> There is no west at the North Pole, only south. Lurk moar.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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gotham

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2010, 03:48:44 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

I am studying the site to assist in answering your question (recommended). Just a question for you that will help me move forward and it involves a property of light.  Please answer me this. You are standing on the beach looking out at the ship. Under your feet you are standing exactly in the center of a disk capable of spinning.  The disk starts spinning faster and faster with you still standing on it.  Now the disk accelerates it's at an incredible rate and spins so fast that it is turning at just under the speed of light. Since you are still on the disk, can you see the back of your head?  If you can please answer this I can apply the same principle to my theoretical light-based dilemma. Thanks!!   

Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2010, 03:57:15 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

I am studying the site to assist in answering your question (recommended). Just a question for you that will help me move forward and it involves a property of light.  Please answer me this. You are standing on the beach looking out at the ship. Under your feet you are standing exactly in the center of a disk capable of spinning.  The disk starts spinning faster and faster with you still standing on it.  Now the disk accelerates it's at an incredible rate and spins so fast that it is turning at just under the speed of light. Since you are still on the disk, can you see the back of your head?  If you can please answer this I can apply the same principle to my theoretical light-based dilemma. Thanks!!   
No, SR tells us that light's velocity is independent of its source. Light from the back of your head would always move outward from the disc's center and never towards your eyes. (I'm assuming that your eyes are not farther away from the center of the disc than the back of your head.)
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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gotham

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2010, 04:04:49 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

I am studying the site to assist in answering your question (recommended). Just a question for you that will help me move forward and it involves a property of light.  Please answer me this. You are standing on the beach looking out at the ship. Under your feet you are standing exactly in the center of a disk capable of spinning.  The disk starts spinning faster and faster with you still standing on it.  Now the disk accelerates it's at an incredible rate and spins so fast that it is turning at just under the speed of light. Since you are still on the disk, can you see the back of your head?  If you can please answer this I can apply the same principle to my theoretical light-based dilemma. Thanks!!    
No, SR tells us that light's velocity is independent of its source. Light from the back of your head would always move outward from the disc's center and never towards your eyes. (I'm assuming that your eyes are not farther away from the center of the disc than the back of your head.)

Fascinating, Thanks! I thought there were inherent anomalies that occurred with motion near the speed of light.  For example, if you stand on a train that was approaching the speed of light you would see the back of the train when you looked forward and with the spinning you would get the same effect. I stand corrected.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 04:24:34 PM by gotham »

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Parsifal

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2010, 04:39:06 PM »
  • Ship goes straight east along a certain latitude
  • Ship is fooled so it begins turning left.

These two premises are not only incorrect, but contradictory. Your argument is self-inconsistent.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2010, 04:43:08 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

I am studying the site to assist in answering your question (recommended). Just a question for you that will help me move forward and it involves a property of light.  Please answer me this. You are standing on the beach looking out at the ship. Under your feet you are standing exactly in the center of a disk capable of spinning.  The disk starts spinning faster and faster with you still standing on it.  Now the disk accelerates it's at an incredible rate and spins so fast that it is turning at just under the speed of light. Since you are still on the disk, can you see the back of your head?  If you can please answer this I can apply the same principle to my theoretical light-based dilemma. Thanks!!    
No, SR tells us that light's velocity is independent of its source. Light from the back of your head would always move outward from the disc's center and never towards your eyes. (I'm assuming that your eyes are not farther away from the center of the disc than the back of your head.)

Fascinating, Thanks! I thought there were inherent anomalies that occurred with motion near the speed of light.  For example, if you stand on a train that was approaching the speed of light you would see the back of the train when you looked forward and with the spinning you would get the same effect. I stand corrected.
I know of no speed of light anomaly where you can see behind yourself. Please cite your reference about 'stand(ing) on a train'.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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gotham

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2010, 04:54:43 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to actually read what I am writing and tell me what part of my premises are incorrect or assumed incorrectly for the conclusion to be incorrect.

I am studying the site to assist in answering your question (recommended). Just a question for you that will help me move forward and it involves a property of light.  Please answer me this. You are standing on the beach looking out at the ship. Under your feet you are standing exactly in the center of a disk capable of spinning.  The disk starts spinning faster and faster with you still standing on it.  Now the disk accelerates it's at an incredible rate and spins so fast that it is turning at just under the speed of light. Since you are still on the disk, can you see the back of your head?  If you can please answer this I can apply the same principle to my theoretical light-based dilemma. Thanks!!    
No, SR tells us that light's velocity is independent of its source. Light from the back of your head would always move outward from the disc's center and never towards your eyes. (I'm assuming that your eyes are not farther away from the center of the disc than the back of your head.)

Fascinating, Thanks! I thought there were inherent anomalies that occurred with motion near the speed of light.  For example, if you stand on a train that was approaching the speed of light you would see the back of the train when you looked forward and with the spinning you would get the same effect. I stand corrected.
I know of no speed of light anomaly where you can see behind yourself. Please cite your reference about 'stand(ing) on a train'.

It was on the television. History channel or Discovery channel. Will have to look into it further to see why they said that.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 04:57:46 PM by gotham »

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2010, 05:40:51 PM »
On a RE, if you stand at the North Pole and observe a ship an arbitrary object going due West from there, do you see it moving in a straight line?
<sigh> There is no west at the North Pole, only south. Lurk moar.
Okay, let's assume the ship object is 2 centimetres away from the actual pole. Now we do have west. Will the object be (or appear to be) moving in a straight line?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:43:11 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2010, 06:32:10 PM »
On a RE, if you stand at the North Pole and observe a ship an arbitrary object going due West from there, do you see it moving in a straight line?
<sigh> There is no west at the North Pole, only south. Lurk moar.
Okay, let's assume the ship object is 2 centimetres away from the actual pole. Now we do have west. Will the object be (or appear to be) moving in a straight line?
No. How is this relevant? Since the Earth's surface is curved, nothing traveling on it travels in a perfectly straight line.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2010, 06:40:39 PM »
It is relevant because it invalidates the premise:

you will see the back of the ship continuously until it disappears into the vanishing point
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2010, 06:44:53 PM »
It is relevant because it invalidates the premise:

you will see the back of the ship continuously until it disappears into the vanishing point
You'll have to explain to us how it invalidates the premise.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2010, 06:49:30 PM »
An object close to the North Pole moving due west would be circling around the pole. It would do that anywhere else, but it would be very apparent at the poles. Therefore, you would not see the back of the ship all the time. Assuming you are not rotating, you will see the back, then the side, then no ship at all, until it comes back.
Since the premise is nonsensical, the conclusions are invalid.
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2010, 06:52:42 PM »
An object close to the North Pole moving due west would be circling around the pole. It would do that anywhere else, but it would be very apparent at the poles. Therefore, you would not see the back of the ship all the time. Assuming you are not rotating, you will see the back, then the side, then no ship at all, until it comes back.
Since the premise is nonsensical, the conclusions are invalid.
Again, how does this invalidate the premise? If you're arguing that there's a shore at the North Pole, I suggest you check for yourself. We'll wait on your return.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2010, 07:00:27 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
Until then, the premise is invalid, because the observing person would not observe the ship/object go in a "straight line" if it followed latitude, except while at the Equator. (Yes, I do realize that due to the curvature of the Round Earth one would not observe it going in an actual straight line. What's important there is that anywhere else the ship/object would be turning left/right if it were to follow latitude). This is easy to observe if we consider an example close to the Earth's magnetic field south pole (Corrected, sorry for the confusion. Should be replaced in the picture, too):

Again, the premise fails.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 07:27:52 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2010, 07:12:42 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
Until then, the premise is invalid, because the observing person would not observe the ship/object go in a "straight line" if it followed latitude, except while at the Equator. (Yes, I do realize that due to the curvature of the Round Earth one would not observe it going in an actual straight line. What's important there is that anywhere else the ship/object would be turning left/right if it were to follow latitude). This is easy to observe if we consider an example close to the south magnetic pole:

Again, the premise fails.
That is wrong is so many ways. The NSP is in the North and the north ends of magnets, when properly supported, point towards it.

The MSP is in Antarctica in RE. Whether it exists in FE is something you'll have to tell me.

The lines of latitude are not parallel out from the magnetic poles.

Beyond that I encourage you to read the OP and show that the case you say invalidates the OP's premise indeed does so. You have yet to demonstrate that.

You need to consider how close to the poles a ship can sail from a shore and whether the slight curvature to keep a heading of east or west would be discernible before the ship would sail over the horizon. You simply need to read more and think more before posting.

Or:
Lurk Moar
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2010, 07:15:09 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2010, 07:17:23 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
The premise did not talk about an arbitrary object, did it? You might want to stick to the subject.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2010, 07:21:16 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
The premise did not talk about an arbitrary object, did it? You might want to stick to the subject.
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2010, 07:26:18 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
The premise did not talk about an arbitrary object, did it? You might want to stick to the subject.
I'll be happy to discuss the validity of the premise in this thread. If you wish to move to the topic of an arbitrary object at the Geographic NP, please open a new topic.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2010, 07:28:51 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
The premise did not talk about an arbitrary object, did it? You might want to stick to the subject.
I'll be happy to discuss the validity of the premise in this thread. If you wish to move to the topic of an arbitrary object at the Geographic NP, please open a new topic.
Ah, so you're dodging the answer. Thank you for admitting it.
As for the OP: I hope this has clarified your doubts. My work here is done.
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Re: Will I see the back of my head?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2010, 07:58:16 PM »
Why is a shore required for an arbitrary object to be moving due west? Or are you saying the results would be different for a ship? In that case, I await your proof.
The premise did not talk about an arbitrary object, did it? You might want to stick to the subject.
I'll be happy to discuss the validity of the premise in this thread. If you wish to move to the topic of an arbitrary object at the Geographic NP, please open a new topic.
Ah, so you're dodging the answer. Thank you for admitting it.
As for the OP: I hope this has clarified your doubts. My work here is done.
Again, cool story, bro.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards