An Islamic center near "ground zero".

Yeah, he's an idiot, but at the same time I can't really say that the people who are 'deeply offended' by such actions are any less ignorant.

Yeah, I'm not offended. I just disagree with the way he is handling it, for the same reason I don't like people who rely on logical fallacies to support their claims.

Bawwww! All Muslims are terrorists who hate our freedom! Baw! Baw! Burn the Koran!
Bawwww! All Americans are Muslim hating infidels who hate our Mohammed! Burn the American flag! Baw!
BAAAWWWW!
BAAAAAAWWWW!

You know, I wonder why 9/11 hasn't been made into an official day of remembrance like Pearl Harbor Day. 

You know, I wonder why 9/11 hasn't been made into an official day of remembrance like Pearl Harbor Day. 

It has:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Day

It's not a holiday or anything, but neither is "Pearl Harbor Day".

Quote from: Lorddave on September 11, 2010, 12:46:40 PM

You know, I wonder why 9/11 hasn't been made into an official day of remembrance like Pearl Harbor Day. 

It has:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Day

It's not a holiday or anything, but neither is "Pearl Harbor Day".

Aaahhh, ok.
Wish it was on my Calenders.

Wish it was on my Calenders.

Stop buying your calendars from Camelistan.

Quote from: Wendy on September 10, 2010, 04:32:17 PM

No, they were radical Islamists.

Wait. Now take it slow. Does this mean that being "radical islamist" means you don't hold an Islamic religious view?

Hehe. Obvious troll is obvious.

I am deeply offended by the media making this book burning wacko front page news.  They just encourage other nutjobs to do outrageous things for attention. 

Quote from: Crustinator on September 10, 2010, 04:34:10 PM

Quote from: Wendy on September 10, 2010, 04:32:17 PM

No, they were radical Islamists.

Wait. Now take it slow. Does this mean that being "radical islamist" means you don't hold an Islamic religious view?

Hehe. Obvious troll is obvious.

What are you talking about?   They were Muslims.  Being radical Muslims does not change the fact that they were Muslims.

Should we protest Christians attending military funerals because of the offensive acts of the Westboro Baptist Church? 

Guys, I've decided that there's some things in my life I need.

i) wimminz
ii) car
ii) bitchin house to put my wimminz and car

if you don't get me these things I will burn the koran.

Get to work.

Guys, I've decided that there's some things in my life I need.

i) wimminz
ii) car
ii) bitchin house to put my wimminz and car

if you don't get me these things I will burn the koran.

Get to work.

First, you need to grow a ridiculous mustache and start referring to yourself as "Pastor".

First, you need to grow a ridiculous mustache and start referring to yourself as "Pastor".

Hey! I give the instructions round here! Have you got my car yet?

I'm going to draw a stick man and then write Mohammed above it if you don't get a move on.

What are you talking about?   They were Muslims.  Being radical Muslims does not change the fact that they were Muslims.

Like Christianity, Judaism and most other major religions, there are many "brands" (sects) of Islam and not all of them subscribe to the same interpretation of their primary holy text.  So it's not really fair to make it sound like the 9/11 terrorists shared all of the same beliefs as the billion or so Muslims who are not terrorists.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 11, 2010, 04:14:21 PM

What are you talking about?   They were Muslims.  Being radical Muslims does not change the fact that they were Muslims.

Like Christianity, Judaism and most other major religions, there are many "brands" (sects) of Islam and not all of them subscribe to the same interpretation of their primary holy text.  So it's not really fair to make it sound like the 9/11 terrorists shared all of the same beliefs as the billion or so Muslims who are not terrorists.

Does that make Wendy's statement correct? 

Their religious view(And it wasn't Islam) doesn't matter.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on September 11, 2010, 04:14:21 PM

What are you talking about?  They were Muslims.  Being radical Muslims does not change the fact that they were Muslims.

Like Christianity, Judaism and most other major religions, there are many "brands" (sects) of Islam and not all of them subscribe to the same interpretation of their primary holy text.  So it's not really fair to make it sound like the 9/11 terrorists shared all of the same beliefs as the billion or so Muslims who are not terrorists.

I certainly don't think that they all share the exact same beliefs, but you just said it, radical Islam is itself a sect of Islam.  I'm not saying that we should lump all Muslims in with terrorists, but I feel that making the "no true Scotsman" argument about the terrorists is a weak tactic at best, because in the context of the issue, it really doesn't matter what the terrorists did or not believe.  The terrorists aren't the ones building a mosque, nor is there even the slightest bit of evidence that they were in league with the mosque-builders.  Rationally, the debate should have ended there.

You're right, Saddam. It doesn't matter what the terrorists did or did not believe. That was the point of my post.

We do have laws against hate speech. It's just that what he's doing isn't hateful. If he had been spreading slander or something, it would be different.

Kathleen Parker had a great article in the paper today.

http://www.journal-news.com/opinion/columnists/kathleen-parker-a-letter-to-the-muslim-world--909180.html

Dear Muslim World,

I am writing you today as an American citizen who is deeply embarrassed by current events in my country.

First, let me say that I am not representing anyone. I can?t claim to speak for anyone but myself, though I am certain that many others feel as I do.

I want to address the current controversy over the proposed Islamic center and mosque near Ground Zero and the so-called ?pastor? in Florida who had been threatening to burn a Quran.

I?ll begin with the easier of the two: Please ignore Pastor Terry Jones. I wish we had. He may live in the U.S. He may have a building with a cross on it and call it a church. And he may know 50 or so people who care what he says, but he?s nobody. His threat to burn a Quran was a desperate attempt to get attention and nothing more.

Anyone can call himself a pastor, but there?s a reason Jones leads such a tiny congregation. We have a long tradition in this country of letting people speak their thoughts in public, but we don?t take many of them very seriously. We laugh at characters like Jones, but figure it?s better to let fools reveal themselves in the light of day than to let them fester in the dark. I know this is hard to understand. We have trouble with it sometimes, too. Freedom is a messy affair and sometimes people get their feelings hurt, but we think the trade-off is worth the aggravation.

What we hope you understand is that most Americans were appalled by Jones? proposal, too. Many of us would like for him to crawl back under his rock and stay there, never to be heard from again. Alas, our laws do not forbid stupidity. A few decades ago, Jones would be standing on a fruit crate on a street corner, where children would point at him and be scolded by their parents: ?It?s not nice to make fun of crazy people.? Today, thanks to the miracle of mass communication, he can command a broad, if undeserved, audience.

What our laws do not require, of course, is that we give him our attention, and that?s where we have failed each other and ourselves. As a member of the news media, I am sorry we handed him a megaphone, and I apologize. Please be patient. In a few days, he will be forgotten.

Of more pressing concern, and less easily resolved, is the controversy in this country about the proposed Islamic cultural center. I understand the sensitivity, as I?m sure many of you do. When we were attacked by terrorists nine years ago, our hearts were broken. They still are.

Nevertheless, we don?t hold all Muslims responsible for what happened any more than all Christians should be held responsible for what Pastor Jones has been saying. Muslims also died when the World Trade Center towers collapsed. To say that an Islamic center can?t be built near Ground Zero is to say that all Muslims are to blame. I don?t think most Americans believe this even though a majority now say they would prefer the center be built elsewhere.

This can?t be explained rationally because this is purely an emotional response. Obviously, Muslims have the same right to worship when and where they please, just as any other group in America. The same rules of tolerance that allow a Florida pastor to preach his message also allow Muslims to preach theirs.

We may never be able to agree on some things. That is life. But let us all agree to some terms. Let?s agree not to tolerate hatred ? toward Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists or any others. Let?s agree not to use inflammatory language. Let?s agree to call out and condemn those who would incite riot, whether it?s an imam who orders the death of a cartoonist or the preacher who wants to burn another man?s holy book.

Let?s agree that sometimes we will disagree, but that none of this makes any sense if worshiping the creator means we must destroy each other in the process. Anyone who believes in God can?t also believe that his divine plan included his creation?s mutual destruction.

Peace be upon us all. Or as we say around here, God bless.

Sincerely,

An American

We do have laws against hate speech. It's just that what he's doing isn't hateful. If he had been spreading slander or something, it would be different.

Huh?  No, we don't, unless the speech is an incitement to imminent violence or defamation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#United_States

And if we did have laws against hate speech, burning the Koran would probably fall under that, much like the way cross burning does.

@SCG: Good article, and my sentiments exactly.  Honestly, I really don't care about Jones.  He's obviously an attention whore, and the fact that he managed to rocket himself to worldwide fame in a few short days while keeping himself out of jail actually earns him a modicum of my grudging admiration.  The media just fucked this whole thing up.

I'd like to point out that this is actually going to be a multifaith community center that includes separate rooms for Christian prayers/worship and jewish prayers/worship...

I'd like to point out that this is actually going to be a multifaith community center that includes separate rooms for Christian prayers/worship and jewish prayers/worship...

What a revolting compromise.

Well that's been the plan for years (including when it was approved before the local gov. building board). It was never fowarded as just a "mosque".

Wait, I'm trying to understand what the logical and/or legal argument is against letting it get built. Anybody care to clarify? As far as I can tell, the people against it start off by admitting it's an appeal to emotion.  

Wait, I'm trying to understand what the logical and/or legal argument is against letting it get built. Anybody care to clarify? As far as I can tell, the people against it start off by admitting it's an appeal to emotion.  

There isn't one.
It's basically:
"Ground Zero is a holy sight.  No Islam Allowed!"
They extend Ground Zero to about 4 city blocks.

Wait, I'm trying to understand what the logical and/or legal argument is against letting it get built. Anybody care to clarify? As far as I can tell, the people against it start off by admitting it's an appeal to emotion. 

Fox News has admitted that this isn't a matter of legality. They acknowledge it is perfect legal for them to build their Mosque where ever they want. They say the issue is that it is in bad taste.

To quote TAA:

They'd have the right to build a monument to the hijackers of 9/11, and a giant mural of all the victims of 9/11 roasting in hell if they wanted to. That's freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means that sometimes incredible assholes win. But that's ok. Because this is America, and we can flip those assholes the bird, and we can criticize them as much as we want and as roundly as we want. As soon as we talk about taking their rights away, this is no longer America.

Quote from: ?ingula?i?y on September 12, 2010, 08:19:47 PM

Wait, I'm trying to understand what the logical and/or legal argument is against letting it get built. Anybody care to clarify? As far as I can tell, the people against it start off by admitting it's an appeal to emotion.  

Fox News has admitted that this isn't a matter of legality. They acknowledge it is perfect legal for them to build their Mosque where ever they want. They say the issue is that it is in bad taste.

Alright. That's like admitting defeat already, but I'm ok with that.
However, I still don't understand how it can be called bad taste without calling Muslims 'terrorists'. That's the equivalent of calling Christians the KKK. Christian churches are not disputed in the south, or along the 'Underground Railroad' etc. because they are not responsible for radical groups not affiliated with them.

To quote TTA:

Quote

They'd have the right to build a monument to the hijackers of 9/11, and a giant mural of all the victims of 9/11 roasting in hell if they wanted to. That's freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means that sometimes incredible assholes win. But that's ok. Because this is America, and we can flip those assholes the bird, and we can criticize them as much as we want and as roundly as we want. As soon as we talk about taking their rights away, this is no longer America.

Is that by chance TAA?  

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on September 12, 2010, 08:54:48 PM

Quote from: ?ingula?i?y on September 12, 2010, 08:19:47 PM

Wait, I'm trying to understand what the logical and/or legal argument is against letting it get built. Anybody care to clarify? As far as I can tell, the people against it start off by admitting it's an appeal to emotion.  

Fox News has admitted that this isn't a matter of legality. They acknowledge it is perfect legal for them to build their Mosque where ever they want. They say the issue is that it is in bad taste.

Alright. That's like admitting defeat already, but I'm ok with that.
However, I still don't understand how it can be called bad taste without calling Muslims 'terrorists'. That's the equivalent of calling Christians the KKK. Christian churches are not disputed in the south, or along the 'Underground Railroad' etc. because they are not responsible for radical groups not affiliated with them.

And this is pretty much the argument that the proponents of building it say. We are at a war at Al-Qaeda, not Islam. It should not be treated as such.

AS many have pointed out, if this line of argument is valid, should we not be outraged at all of Christianity for the actions of the Westboro baptists.

Quote

To quote TAA:

Quote

They'd have the right to build a monument to the hijackers of 9/11, and a giant mural of all the victims of 9/11 roasting in hell if they wanted to. That's freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means that sometimes incredible assholes win. But that's ok. Because this is America, and we can flip those assholes the bird, and we can criticize them as much as we want and as roundly as we want. As soon as we talk about taking their rights away, this is no longer America.

Is that by chance TAA?  

Nice catch.

Somehow I don't think this argument would sway Bill O' Reilly though.