Please explain Sunset dynamics

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klobb

Please explain Sunset dynamics
« on: July 18, 2010, 08:53:25 PM »
Hello,

I stumbled onto your interesting board recently. I find it fascinating that a small group of people maintains this idea in the face of an overwhelming majority opinion to the contrary. I can see from the signatures on this site that this fact (opposition to a mainstream point of view) is in fact a point of pride among some of you. In any case I see that you all have devised a relatively detailed model for your hypothesis accounting for many points one would raise.

One of the points addressed in the FAQ is the question of the sunrise and the sunset. Let's just focus on the sunset for ease of communication. In the round earth model, the sunset is a result of the earth rotating "away" from the sun, such that the observer becomes separated from illumination by the body of the earth. The lowering of the angle of the sun in the sky is a result of the same rotation.

Now, from your FAQ:
"A: It is a perspective effect. The sun is just getting farther away: it looks like it is disappearing because everything gets smaller, and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.

UPDATE:The theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration is currently being developed and reviewed by members. Once completed, Electromagnetic Acceleration will be used as an alternative in explaining sunrises, sunsets and horizons for the dark energy model only."

I'm only going to address the first model because the electromagnetic acceleration bit is not elaborated.

The suggestion in your model is that "it is a perspective effect." Now, I have two complaints about this interpretation I hope you will take seriously.

First, the declining angle of the sun in the sky.

As the sun sets (or moves away, as you may prefer...), its angle in the sky declines. We can all agree on this. At noontime in the summer the sun is directly overhead, then as the day goes on it goes "down" across the sky toward the horizon. We can reconcile with your model easily. If the sun is an object relatively close in terms of distance from the surface (I'm accepting your model for what the sun is, and how far it is  - for the sake of this question), then as it moves away it will in fact appear to "descend" in the sky as it moves further away. Some pencil and paper sketches should make this apparent.

Now, there seem to be some problems with this. First, if the sun is moving away, why does it not appear to grow smaller, but rather maintain its size?

Second, if I am in an airplane or on a tall mountain at sunset, I can see the sun setting below me. Your model of the sunset allows for the sun to appear nearly in the same plane with my line of sight (an angle of 0 degrees if you like) as its distance approaches infinity. However, no matter how distant the sun is, it cannot descend below the plane of my sight if it is truly above my head. How do you account for this piece of observational data?

Now, the second complaint: Why does the sun gradually become blocked by the horizon, instead of simply fading away? Please again consider a situation where you are a significant distance above the land, so that simple occlusion by trees and such would not be the issue.

I have some more things I think are not quite right with your model, but I would rather present a few questions at a time. I appreciate your time. And while I think your model is wrong, please understand that I do respect your right to believe what you will.

Thank you.

EDIT: Actually, I think I would like to include one more complaint. I'm not sure if this is valid in your model since I have noticed you have very different ideas about basic phenomena like gravity. So I'm not sure you have the same ideas about white light being composed of multiple wavelengths which account for different colors, or if you accept that the atmosphere can scatter light to change the apparent color of the sun. But I will present it anyhow:

When the sun sets, the sky turns a beautiful shade of red and pink due to increasing amounts of blue light being scattered away by the atmosphere. We all see this effect. Now, as the sun dips below the horizon, the pink light gradually retreats with it. However, objects at high altitudes, such as clouds and planes, still reflect the pink light from setting sun. It is as if they are being shone on "from below." This could not occur in the flat earth model. So please, address this as well.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 09:07:03 PM by klobb »

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 12:34:56 AM »
You are wasting your time, sorry. They will not answer you, because they have no answer. You have staten facts obsevable by anyone. If you had tell simply: "Sunset is imposible with your model", they would have answered: "No, it isn't". But you stated facts, observations and proofs that their "theory" is not correct, so they'll ignore this.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 03:19:33 AM »
ITT: Newfags. They post and don't lurk.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 03:44:40 AM »
Very intelligent post. With arguments like that, FET will soon acepted by everyone. Can you answer, or contradict, the questions explained in the post?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 03:59:58 AM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 04:28:51 AM »
"explained"? It is not explained at all. You say "it's an optical effect" and nothing more. How that optical effect works? Diagrams? proof? Evidence? I could state that the Earth is round but appears flat due to "optical effects", too, if I don't say anything more, and then all your theory would become nothing. Please, be a bit serious. Even when the Sun, according to you, over a place 10000 miles away from me, if it is 3000 miles in altitude, I should see it at an angle of arctg(3000/10000) = 16º over the surface! Are you saying that atmosphere distortes de position of the Sun in more than 16º?? Wow. Do you have any proof of this?

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trig

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 04:29:11 AM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
A detailed and careful OP, with detailed explanations of evidence that demolishes the "FE model", is answered with "it's and optical effect" and a bigoted insult. I think you lost this debate already.

The simple fact of the non-changing apparent size of the Sun, as explained in the OP, is enough to demolish the whole "FE model", since it is necessary to recreate almost every basic concept of physics to try to retrofit this "explanation", the conservation of energy being the most obvious.

Electromagnetic Acceleration is just one such attempt, for which we only have eternal promises of some advancement in some unspecified future.

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 04:31:54 AM »
it's because the Earth is turning and moving around the sun. Hence the sun seems to rise and set on a daily basis.

What are they teaching you people in school ???

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klobb

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2010, 02:23:52 PM »
it's because the Earth is turning and moving around the sun. Hence the sun seems to rise and set on a daily basis.

What are they teaching you people in school ???

Right, this is the of course the explanation given by the "round earth model" as it is called around here. Clearly this is what I was taught in school. What I'm doing is taking seriously this board's ideas and seeing how they answer what to me seem like flaws. I truly find it quite interesting the system which the "FE'ers" have contrived, and how they have plausible-sounding explanations for most common objections.

If nothing else this board is a fascinating look at how and why people believe what they do. I won't go further than that, because I don't want to generalize about the many people who adhere to this belief. I'm sure they have many reasons.

I would have hoped that my earnestness in formulating these questions and my civility would warrant a similar response.  Instead I am called a fag. Perhaps there are others here who can present themselves with dignity?

edit: I have read the FAQ and have not seen a satisfactory explanation. If you can copy and paste something which answers my questions, please hurry and relieve me of my ignorance.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 02:25:32 PM by klobb »

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Anteater7171

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2010, 01:03:08 PM »
edit: I have read the FAQ and have not seen a satisfactory explanation. If you can copy and paste something which answers my questions, please hurry and relieve me of my ignorance.

Please read the literature in Tom's signature. It will relieve you of your ignorance quite hastily.

I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

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The Question1

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2010, 01:43:46 PM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

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Anteater7171

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2010, 10:42:55 PM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the FAQ. Please read the FAQ.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

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The Question1

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2010, 10:51:49 PM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the FAQ. Please read the FAQ.
Whether i have read the whole thing is irrelevant.
We are talking about the sunrise/sunset.

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Anteater7171

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2010, 10:58:32 PM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the FAQ. Please read the FAQ.
Whether i have read the whole thing is irrelevant.

The above statement is incorrect. Please, read the FAQ.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2010, 09:57:15 AM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

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The Question1

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2010, 11:26:01 AM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the FAQ. Please read the FAQ.
Whether i have read the whole thing is irrelevant.

The above statement is incorrect. Please, read the FAQ.

Because you didn't bother to read the whole post obviously.

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Anteater7171

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2010, 07:02:49 PM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the FAQ. Please read the FAQ.
Whether i have read the whole thing is irrelevant.

The above statement is incorrect. Please, read the FAQ.

Because you didn't bother to read the whole post obviously.

This whole thread wouldn't have to exist if you simply read the entire FAQ thoroughly.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 04:55:36 AM »
This whole thread wouldn't have to exist if you simply read the entire FAQ thoroughly.

The FAQ answers none of the OP's questions. Neither it falsifies none of his arguments. All you get from the FAQ is this:

Q: "Please explain sunrises and sunsets."

A: It is a perspective effect. The sun is just getting farther away: it looks like it is disappearing because everything gets smaller, and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.

...and the OP just pointed out this can't be true.

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The Question1

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 02:12:46 PM »
Yeah. It's an optical effect caused by the atmosphere, as explained in the FAQ.
Please direct me to where it says that.I checked and the same perspective effect thing is there.Which doesn't make sense because it sinks BELOW the horizon.It also maintains its shape throughout the day.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the FAQ. Please read the FAQ.
Whether i have read the whole thing is irrelevant.

The above statement is incorrect. Please, read the FAQ.

Because you didn't bother to read the whole post obviously.

This whole thread wouldn't have to exist if you simply read the entire FAQ thoroughly.
This whole thread would still be here because i didn't make the topic.
Also no matter how many times i read the FAQ,the facts don't change.

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2010, 10:33:17 AM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

so this is about people who "want to believe" something, not seek for evidence to undermine and give reason to their beliefs.
is here any FETishist who is actually not hardcore christian? just curious
English is not my mother tongue, please consider this when reading my posts.
Quote from: anteater7171
Quote
Why is australia excluded?
Because it is a lie propagated by the conspiracy (like gravity or sustained spaceflight).
I lived a lie

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2010, 02:45:56 PM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

so this is about people who "want to believe" something, not seek for evidence to undermine and give reason to their beliefs.
is here any FETishist who is actually not hardcore christian? just curious
I don't want to believe at all.  It was thrust upon me and I have taken up the position of fulfilling my destiny.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2010, 04:30:40 PM »
This whole thread wouldn't have to exist if you simply read the entire FAQ thoroughly.

The FAQ answers none of the OP's questions. Neither it falsifies none of his arguments. All you get from the FAQ is this:

Q: "Please explain sunrises and sunsets."

A: It is a perspective effect. The sun is just getting farther away: it looks like it is disappearing because everything gets smaller, and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.

...and the OP just pointed out this can't be true.

Have you ever seen a damn sunset or sunrise? The Sun doesn't look any smaller, but rather you can clearly observe it either go below the horizon or rise up from the horizon.
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible."

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2010, 08:21:54 PM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

so this is about people who "want to believe" something, not seek for evidence to undermine and give reason to their beliefs.
is here any FETishist who is actually not hardcore christian? just curious
I don't want to believe at all.  It was thrust upon me and I have taken up the position of fulfilling my destiny.

Oh cool, I had a friend a while ago who thought a similar way. Ironically that ment taking drugs on a regular basis, not even graduating from school and never have a job for more than a few months, dont even think as far as "apprenticeship". Then he basically believed that it doesnt matter anyway because hes chosen and fulfilling his destiny. Im sure you dont take drugs and have a good job, possibly higher education, however I dont think it sounds good saying "belief was thrust upon me". Its a bit... weird, and leaves more questions open than it answered. Why you? Why so sure about it? Could you be wrong? What if you are wrong? What if you are right? And, then, what happens to (almost) everyone else? Why doesnt this happen to you then?
English is not my mother tongue, please consider this when reading my posts.
Quote from: anteater7171
Quote
Why is australia excluded?
Because it is a lie propagated by the conspiracy (like gravity or sustained spaceflight).
I lived a lie

*

Username

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2010, 09:17:41 PM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

so this is about people who "want to believe" something, not seek for evidence to undermine and give reason to their beliefs.
is here any FETishist who is actually not hardcore christian? just curious
I don't want to believe at all.  It was thrust upon me and I have taken up the position of fulfilling my destiny.

Oh cool, I had a friend a while ago who thought a similar way. Ironically that ment taking drugs on a regular basis, not even graduating from school and never have a job for more than a few months, dont even think as far as "apprenticeship". Then he basically believed that it doesnt matter anyway because hes chosen and fulfilling his destiny. Im sure you dont take drugs and have a good job, possibly higher education, however I dont think it sounds good saying "belief was thrust upon me". Its a bit... weird, and leaves more questions open than it answered. Why you? Why so sure about it? Could you be wrong? What if you are wrong? What if you are right? And, then, what happens to (almost) everyone else? Why doesnt this happen to you then?

Of course I am wrong.  To say anythign else would be paramont to saying one is God.  What happens? Life goes on and I learn more as does the race.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2010, 06:32:22 PM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

so this is about people who "want to believe" something, not seek for evidence to undermine and give reason to their beliefs.
is here any FETishist who is actually not hardcore christian? just curious
I don't want to believe at all.  It was thrust upon me and I have taken up the position of fulfilling my destiny.

Oh cool, I had a friend a while ago who thought a similar way. Ironically that ment taking drugs on a regular basis, not even graduating from school and never have a job for more than a few months, dont even think as far as "apprenticeship". Then he basically believed that it doesnt matter anyway because hes chosen and fulfilling his destiny. Im sure you dont take drugs and have a good job, possibly higher education, however I dont think it sounds good saying "belief was thrust upon me". Its a bit... weird, and leaves more questions open than it answered. Why you? Why so sure about it? Could you be wrong? What if you are wrong? What if you are right? And, then, what happens to (almost) everyone else? Why doesnt this happen to you then?

Of course I am wrong.  To say anythign else would be paramont to saying one is God.  What happens? Life goes on and I learn more as does the race.
What if there was no god?
English is not my mother tongue, please consider this when reading my posts.
Quote from: anteater7171
Quote
Why is australia excluded?
Because it is a lie propagated by the conspiracy (like gravity or sustained spaceflight).
I lived a lie

*

Username

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Re: Please explain Sunset dynamics
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 07:08:32 PM »
This could all be explained by a "floodlight sun".
Qhite possibly what we are seeing is the sun's light and not the sun itself as it sets.
The sun could shine this floodlight beam and as its slowing moving away its beam could slowing pointing towards the horizon.

And you are right not to read the FAQ
it was written by non believers meant to mock us who truly want to believe in a disc shaped earth.

so this is about people who "want to believe" something, not seek for evidence to undermine and give reason to their beliefs.
is here any FETishist who is actually not hardcore christian? just curious
I don't want to believe at all.  It was thrust upon me and I have taken up the position of fulfilling my destiny.

Oh cool, I had a friend a while ago who thought a similar way. Ironically that ment taking drugs on a regular basis, not even graduating from school and never have a job for more than a few months, dont even think as far as "apprenticeship". Then he basically believed that it doesnt matter anyway because hes chosen and fulfilling his destiny. Im sure you dont take drugs and have a good job, possibly higher education, however I dont think it sounds good saying "belief was thrust upon me". Its a bit... weird, and leaves more questions open than it answered. Why you? Why so sure about it? Could you be wrong? What if you are wrong? What if you are right? And, then, what happens to (almost) everyone else? Why doesnt this happen to you then?

Of course I am wrong.  To say anythign else would be paramont to saying one is God.  What happens? Life goes on and I learn more as does the race.
What if there was no god?
I don't really hold that there is one.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.