White Nights prove FE?

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dim

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White Nights prove FE?
« on: June 29, 2010, 01:09:49 AM »
White Nights are only visible in the Northen Hemisphere. You can always see the Sun in the time when days are the longest, while it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are no evidence about White nights. And FE explains this well. Cuz Sun rotates with the axle in the Northern Pole, when there is summer in the North Sun could be seen alldaylong if you're situated close enough to the N.Pole. And there is no such sitatuation happens in the Southern Hemisphere. At least we havan't heard about them. All we heard, is that there are also White NIghts but only seen from Antarctica. But due to lack of information about Antarctica we can't verifiy it. But according to RE White Nights should be seen in the Argentina and New Zealand too, but this not happens.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 01:29:21 AM »
White Nights are only visible in the Northen Hemisphere. You can always see the Sun in the time when days are the longest, while it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are no evidence about White nights. And FE explains this well. Cuz Sun rotates with the axle in the Northern Pole, when there is summer in the North Sun could be seen alldaylong if you're situated close enough to the N.Pole. And there is no such sitatuation happens in the Southern Hemisphere. At least we havan't heard about them. All we heard, is that there are also White NIghts but only seen from Antarctica. But due to lack of information about Antarctica we can't verifiy it. But according to RE White Nights should be seen in the Argentina and New Zealand too, but this not happens.
Sorry, but with no references or sources, your argument seems very empty.

I believe that by "White Nights" you mean the phenomenon called the “Midnight Sun”. The Sun appears above the horizon north of the Arctic Circle and south of the Antarctic Circle during the Solstice of that Hemisphere and nearby dates for location further north and south respectively.
RE predicts the observed amount of sunlight accurately in both cases. Argentina and New Zealand, far north of the Antarctic Circle, never experience the Midnight Sun, just as RE predicts.
Contrary to your claim, evidence of the Midnight Sun in Antarctic exists. Please reference: http://www2.umaine.edu/USITASE/teachers/pdf/polarLight.pdf
FE fails to predict the time of any sunrise or sunset. RE actually predicts accurately every one regardless of time of year, altitude above sea level, or location on Earth.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 01:47:16 AM »
Reference says: that Sun is closer to the Earth when there is Winter in Northerh Hemisphere. But how can it be?

Let's say we observe Sun 30o above the horizon in Summer and in Winter. In Summer - there is warmness that we feel coming from the Sun, in Winter we don't feel warmness. But the Sun is same altitude about the Horizon - why there is difference? The answer is simple and obivous - the Sun is closer to us when we feel direct warmness.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 02:02:46 AM »
Reference says: that Sun is closer to the Earth when there is Winter in Northerh Hemisphere. But how can it be?

Let's say we observe Sun 30o above the horizon in Summer and in Winter. In Summer - there is warmness that we feel coming from the Sun, in Winter we don't feel warmness. But the Sun is same altitude about the Horizon - why there is difference? The answer is simple and obivous - the Sun is closer to us when we feel direct warmness.
A good high school Earth science textbook would explain this to you. You can run simple experiments in your kitchen if your education didn’t give you’re the opportunity to do so in school.

The difference in distance between the Earth and the Sun varies only about 3 million miles over the course of Earth year. Reference: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=331
The same reference explains that the variance of this distance is the least important factor in a location’s temperature.

So the Sun can indeed be closer to the Earth during the Northern Hemisphere’s winter and still not have a substantial effect of the seasonal temperature variations on Earth.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 02:16:32 AM »
Why you saying that temperature is the least important factor?

It is obvious that it is one of the important factors. And you didn't gave an answer to my example with the Sun 30o above the horizon.

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d00gz

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 02:29:39 AM »
Why you saying that temperature is the least important factor?

It is obvious that it is one of the important factors. And you didn't gave an answer to my example with the Sun 30o above the horizon.

Your username is apt.

The temperature in space, between the earth and the sun, is close to absolute zero. Yet you think the minor difference in distance between the 2 at different times of year is the defining factor in temperature inside the earth's atmosphere?

Stop trolling, surely you're not this stupid.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2010, 02:30:40 AM »
Why you saying that temperature is the least important factor?

It is obvious that it is one of the important factors. And you didn't gave an answer to my example with the Sun 30o above the horizon.
Goodness, where did I say that temperature is the least important factor? I don’t see where I said any such thing.

I have no idea what you’re even arguing with the 30o example. We do feel warmness of the Sun when the Sun is 30o above the horizon regardless of the time of year. If your premises are unsupported and especially when false as in this case, there is nothing to debate. You might get farther here by better reasoning, more research, and providing references.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2010, 02:41:18 AM »
Well. Sun almost not giving warmness when there is Winter. The delta of direct heat from Sun is very differs in Summand and in Winter. It is proven experimentally.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2010, 02:46:04 AM »
Well. Sun almost not giving warmness when there is Winter. The delta of direct heat from Sun is very differs in Summand and in Winter. It is proven experimentally.

I'll yield if and only if you can produce a peer-reviewed top-shelf reference for your claim; "Sun almost not giving warmess when there is Winter".
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Raver

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2010, 03:26:27 AM »
This isn't even worth discussing, the OP obviously did not put the slightest grain of effort into his initial post. I really don't care about bad english as a result of it not being the posters first language, typo's or the occasional mistake. However, using cuz rather than because and havant instead of haven't is just lazy, dumb, or an attempt to sound "kewl!!!111!!11".
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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2010, 03:49:22 AM »
What you dislike guys?

Questions are: 1) are there White Nights in Souther Hemisphere, same as we have in Northern one (they should be exactly same, according to RE).

2) Why Sun give less heat in Winter then in Summer, even though it's occupies same position in the Sky?


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sillyrob

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 04:02:57 AM »
Well, the Earth isn't perfectly verticle on its axis. When it's Summer in the north, it's winter in the south. When it's Summer in the south, it's winter in the north. Simple explantion that debunks a stupid Flat Earth idea.

Also, Anarctica experiences a 24 sun like the Arctic does, so in your face.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2010, 04:04:28 AM »
What you dislike guys?

Questions are: 1) are there White Nights in Souther Hemisphere, same as we have in Northern one (they should be exactly same, according to RE).

2) Why Sun give less heat in Winter then in Summer, even though it's occupies same position in the Sky?


The Answers already provided and backed up with references are:
1) Yes.
2) While you have failed to demonstrate your premise despite repeated challenges to do so, we've shown that the position in the sky is not the major factor in determining the temperature at any given location on the surface of the Earth.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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d00gz

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 04:45:45 AM »
What you dislike guys?

Questions are: 1) are there White Nights in Souther Hemisphere, same as we have in Northern one (they should be exactly same, according to RE).

2) Why Sun give less heat in Winter then in Summer, even though it's occupies same position in the Sky?



1. Yes, exactly the same.

2. "Winter is colder because the earth's axis is tilted. Winter occurs for the hemisphere which is tilted away from the Sun (the northern hemisphere in January, the southern in July). This has two main effects on the winter hemisphere. First, the Sun is above the horizon for fewer hours each day, so that hemisphere receives less heat from the sun. Also, sunlight strikes the ground at a shallower angle so that less energy per unit area is intercepted by the winter hemisphere. It is true that the earth is closest to the Sun in January. However, the distance from the earth to the Sun varies by only about 2% over a year. This causes a change of only 4% in the amount of solar radiation hitting the earth so this effect is not significant compared to the other two. "

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 05:09:22 AM »
1. Haven't seen any information about Polar Nights in the habitable areas of Southern Hemisphere.

2. You saying "sunlight strikes the ground at a shallower angle so that less energy per unit area is intercepted by the winter hemisphere", but it is me who intercepts energy from the Sun. And me myself not a shallow-angler for the Sun, in Winter i situated even better for this.

The one plausible reason for RE would be, that Sun shines through denser atmosphere level, and atmosphere absorbs some heat, that's why Sun is less worm in winter. But none of you said this.  But i don't know much about ability of atmoshpere to absorb heat, so i think the main reason why Sun is not that hot in Winter is that that Sun is just farther from the Observer.

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d00gz

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2010, 05:20:50 AM »
1. Haven't seen any information about Polar Nights in the habitable areas of Southern Hemisphere.

2. You saying "sunlight strikes the ground at a shallower angle so that less energy per unit area is intercepted by the winter hemisphere", but it is me who intercepts energy from the Sun. And me myself not a shallow-angler for the Sun, in Winter i situated even better for this.

The one plausible reason for RE would be, that Sun shines through denser atmosphere level, and atmosphere absorbs some heat, that's why Sun is less worm in winter. But none of you said this.  But i don't know much about ability of atmoshpere to absorb heat, so i think the main reason why Sun is not that hot in Winter is that that Sun is just farther from the Observer.

No, i just told you the reason. It's the real reason. The one you've just made up is not.

And "the sun is not that hot in winter"

Do you think that the sun gets hotter or colder depending on the season, in the country where you live?

Oh dear.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2010, 05:48:03 AM »
1. Haven't seen any information about Polar Nights in the habitable areas of Southern Hemisphere.

2. You saying "sunlight strikes the ground at a shallower angle so that less energy per unit area is intercepted by the winter hemisphere", but it is me who intercepts energy from the Sun. And me myself not a shallow-angler for the Sun, in Winter i situated even better for this.

The one plausible reason for RE would be, that Sun shines through denser atmosphere level, and atmosphere absorbs some heat, that's why Sun is less worm in winter. But none of you said this.  But i don't know much about ability of atmoshpere to absorb heat, so i think the main reason why Sun is not that hot in Winter is that that Sun is just farther from the Observer.
Why would the area have to be inhabited? That makes no sense.
Wait, how are you measuring the ‘warmth’ of the Sun? By the sensation on your skin? Maybe you might provide a reference for the evidence that that measurement varies as you predict with the seasons. I believe the rest of us were discussing ambient temperature as measured by instruments. Perhaps you might want to review the Experimental Process.

Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2010, 05:49:40 AM »
No! The feelings that Sun gaves us are different, it is obvious and hope you're not just trolling.

The feelings can differ because of many factors: but the main are temperature and vision. With vision we can't be much predict, cuz Sun has blinding light. About temperature - we feel it by our skin. And the heat is ultra-violet. We know, that with distance it is losing it's power.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2010, 06:16:32 AM »
No! The feelings that Sun gaves us are different, it is obvious and hope you're not just trolling.

The feelings can differ because of many factors: but the main are temperature and vision. With vision we can't be much predict, cuz Sun has blinding light. About temperature - we feel it by our skin. And the heat is ultra-violet. We know, that with distance it is losing it's power.
Tell us how you know these "obvious" feelings.

No, our skin does not tell us the radiant heat received from the Sun, just the heat on the skin at the moment. That's influenced by both radiant energy, such as from the Sun, and the conductive heat from the atmosphere, and even other sources, such as our own body.

No, UV is not generally equated to heat. Perhaps you meant infra-red? Of course with distance the Sun's effect at heating decreases, but again it's not the major factor in seasonal variation of temperature on Earth.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2010, 06:42:47 AM »
Well, you're right about conductive heat. I agree.

But you can't say that it's not the sunlight is the major factor which creates the conductivness. Right?

If there no sun, only thermal energy from inside of the earth can create heat, but here where i am, there are no such things. No mountains, no water streams like Gulfstream. So, here where i am the only source of heat is sun. Which leads to one thing: that even if it is not the radiant heat we feel by our sking, but still Sun is the major factor for creation such condition.

So, nor you or me can use the argument to reveal the true nature of the question. So, tied. But question about Polar Nights still up.

Even here in Belarus, i can see the sunset in the north-west and then the edge of the sun light slowly goes to North as the night proceeds and then Sun rises at the north-east. Does it happen in the Southern Hemisphere?

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d00gz

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2010, 06:45:38 AM »

Even here in Belarus, i can see the sunset in the north-west and then the edge of the sun light slowly goes to North as the night proceeds and then Sun rises at the north-east. Does it happen in the Southern Hemisphere?

Yes! How many times must you be told.

Only, obviously, in the south, the sun rises in the south east, and sets in the south west.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2010, 09:32:23 AM »
Well, you're right about conductive heat. I agree.

But you can't say that it's not the sunlight is the major factor which creates the conductivness. Right?

If there no sun, only thermal energy from inside of the earth can create heat, but here where i am, there are no such things. No mountains, no water streams like Gulfstream. So, here where i am the only source of heat is sun. Which leads to one thing: that even if it is not the radiant heat we feel by our sking, but still Sun is the major factor for creation such condition.

So, nor you or me can use the argument to reveal the true nature of the question. So, tied. But question about Polar Nights still up.
 
You seem to be rambling.  I can say with confidence that sunlight does create “conductiveness”. I believe that you’re trying to say that the Sun is the primary source of the general warmth of Earth, which I would have to agree. If you’re trying to avoid owning up that the incidence angle of the Sun’s radiance being the most important factor in the variance of the seasonal temperatures, then shame on you.
We’ve already shown that the Midnight Sun in the Antarctic is real and operates as RE predicts, so you need to answer the challenge.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2010, 09:37:15 AM »
Well, I would like to know more about Polar day/night in the Antarctica(at least as in RE). Where to get information? Could you give me a piece of advice?

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Raver

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2010, 09:45:11 AM »
Well, I would like to know more about Polar day/night in the Antarctica(at least as in RE). Where to get information? Could you give me a piece of advice?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=arctic+midnight+sun
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dim

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 10:05:02 AM »
Well, I would like to know more about Polar day/night in the Antarctica(at least as in RE). Where to get information? Could you give me a piece of advice?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=arctic+midnight+sun

Thank you :))

And still, even in this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun there are photos only from Arctic's Midnight Sun.
Also, look what I am talking about: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Midnightsun12.jpg

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 10:26:39 AM »
Well, I would like to know more about Polar day/night in the Antarctica(at least as in RE). Where to get information? Could you give me a piece of advice?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=arctic+midnight+sun

Thank you :))

And still, even in this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun there are photos only from Arctic's Midnight Sun.
Also, look what I am talking about: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Midnightsun12.jpg
Google is your friend. I encourage you to stop wasting Fora and search before you post. Here’s one reference: http://www.gdargaud.net/Antarctica/AntarSky.html
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Averti

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2010, 10:09:31 PM »
Wow! there are less available images of the midnight sun in Antarctica!!! no one would have thought that based on the fact that the majority of the earths population reside in the northern hemisphere... And few people actually settle in Antarctica... Your argument completely ignores radiative transfer via circulations cells in the atmosphere (eg: Hadley cells move warmth from the equator to the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn). The earth is closer to the sun during North hemisphere winter.... While spatial proximity to the sun is very important to the earths climate, the change in distance on a seasonal basis is too small to have a statistically significant impact on surface temperatures. If you are familiar with any of the research stations in Antarctica (there are about 63), you would know that researchers of different disciplines must go to certain stations at certain times of the year to compensate for the periods of both extended daylight and extended darkness. This is why Astronomers usually do research in the Antarctic in the North hemisphere summer, so that they can make use of the extended darkness. The opposite is generally the case for Earth scientists, who rely on the extended daylight to carry out ice coring and other antarctic research, and thus research there during Northern hemisphere winter. of course I say generally because of the spatially disparate nature of the "midnight sun" based on latitude (some stations are outside of the latitudinal cut off for complete winter darkness and complete summer daylight) and so there is some leeway closer to the coast of Antarctica.
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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2010, 08:23:37 AM »
White Nights are only visible in the Northen Hemisphere. You can always see the Sun in the time when days are the longest, while it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are no evidence about White nights. And FE explains this well. Cuz Sun rotates with the axle in the Northern Pole, when there is summer in the North Sun could be seen alldaylong if you're situated close enough to the N.Pole. And there is no such sitatuation happens in the Southern Hemisphere. At least we havan't heard about them. All we heard, is that there are also White NIghts but only seen from Antarctica. But due to lack of information about Antarctica we can't verifiy it. But according to RE White Nights should be seen in the Argentina and New Zealand too, but this not happens.
Cool story, bro.

No evidence? troll harder please. l2geography. NZ is not that far south. but the tip of Chile is. And so is this continent we like to call Antarctica.

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ClockTower

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2010, 08:38:22 AM »
White Nights are only visible in the Northen Hemisphere. You can always see the Sun in the time when days are the longest, while it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are no evidence about White nights. And FE explains this well. Cuz Sun rotates with the axle in the Northern Pole, when there is summer in the North Sun could be seen alldaylong if you're situated close enough to the N.Pole. And there is no such sitatuation happens in the Southern Hemisphere. At least we havan't heard about them. All we heard, is that there are also White NIghts but only seen from Antarctica. But due to lack of information about Antarctica we can't verifiy it. But according to RE White Nights should be seen in the Argentina and New Zealand too, but this not happens.
Cool story, bro.

No evidence? troll harder please. l2geography. NZ is not that far south. but the tip of Chile is. And so is this continent we like to call Antarctica.
Sorry to disagree, but, no, Chile is not far enough south to have midnight sun. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Horn to read "the extreme southern latitude of the Horn, at 56° south". The midnight sun reaches across the SP only to the Antarctic Circle at 66.562o.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: White Nights prove FE?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2010, 08:45:02 AM »
White Nights are only visible in the Northen Hemisphere. You can always see the Sun in the time when days are the longest, while it is summer in the Northern Hemisphere.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are no evidence about White nights. And FE explains this well. Cuz Sun rotates with the axle in the Northern Pole, when there is summer in the North Sun could be seen alldaylong if you're situated close enough to the N.Pole. And there is no such sitatuation happens in the Southern Hemisphere. At least we havan't heard about them. All we heard, is that there are also White NIghts but only seen from Antarctica. But due to lack of information about Antarctica we can't verifiy it. But according to RE White Nights should be seen in the Argentina and New Zealand too, but this not happens.
Cool story, bro.

No evidence? troll harder please. l2geography. NZ is not that far south. but the tip of Chile is. And so is this continent we like to call Antarctica.
Sorry to disagree, but, no, Chile is not far enough south to have midnight sun. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Horn to read "the extreme southern latitude of the Horn, at 56° south". The midnight sun reaches across the SP only to the Antarctic Circle at 66.562o.

ok not south enough. I was only thinking about the extreme length of days when I skimmed the post.
u'd have to be 90-23.5 degrees south for it to never set.

dim is being rather dim though. This trend of terrible disproofs are getting annoying.
also, I thought u got b&
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 08:47:31 AM by Thevoiceofreason »