A Thought On Original Sin

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 01:55:26 PM »
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Either way, I suppose God was behind it all.

Thank you.

M'lud I put it to you that it is God who should have been cast from the garden of Eden, not the innocent Humans whom had no way of avoiding their fate.

Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2010, 01:57:22 PM »
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Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

If you're talking about the movie, the people were stopped before they committed the murder. Which would make sense: if the apple wasn't meant for humanity, why was it even put in the Garden, and why, knowing they'd eat the apple, did God not throw them out before then so they wouldn't suffer from the 'curse' of the apple?

And can anyone answer the question that started off this thread?

The moral dilemma of the movie wasn't that the people were being stopped, but that they were being punished for committing the crimes that hadn't even happened yet.

The OP didn't seem to understand that the verses from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel related specifically to the sins of the Israelites under the Mosaic covenant. By the simple fact that all generations are still guilty, we can see that the declarations from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel didn't cover original sin.
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Slemon

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2010, 02:01:19 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

If you're talking about the movie, the people were stopped before they committed the murder. Which would make sense: if the apple wasn't meant for humanity, why was it even put in the Garden, and why, knowing they'd eat the apple, did God not throw them out before then so they wouldn't suffer from the 'curse' of the apple?

And can anyone answer the question that started off this thread?

The moral dilemma of the movie wasn't that the people were being stopped, but that they were being punished for committing the crimes that hadn't even happened yet.

The OP didn't seem to understand that the verses from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel related specifically to the sins of the Israelites under the Mosaic covenant. By the simple fact that all generations are still guilty, we can see that the declarations from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel didn't cover original sin.

The people in the film could change their fate though, as was proven. But God is all-knowing as it is, so tehre's no way to change it.

Are you saying it's ok to punish the child of, say,  a murderer?
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2010, 02:09:09 PM »
Well Gen 2 9 is clear that this is the tree of good and evil. genesis 2 25 says they felt no shame.

to be fair it doesn't go into a great deal of detail about the levels of conscience and knowledge of good end evil that Adam and Eve have in the single chapter dealing with it but it is interesting that when the snake asks them whether they can eat from the tree Eve repeats God's instructions parrot-fashion.

In C3 V6 Eve has no qualms about eating the fruit after the snake has told her to, no moments of moral dilemma, no serious pondering, which is interesting since she just repeated the instruction seconds before, to me that tells me that when the snake said it was ok she believed instantly, this is not the action of someone who has any sense of right or wrong.

(before you ask, my Bible is the NIV youth Bible given to me when I was confirmed at about 15)

I understand your interpretation, but it is not spelled out explicitly so. Likewise, scripture is not specific enough for me to rule out the possibility that you are indeed correct. Thus I see two possible and perfectly valid explanations:

God deprived them of the knowledge of all good and evil and set them up for failure so that his master plan for humanity could proceed.

God gave them knowledge of good and evil insofar as how it related to the fruit, while depriving them of all other understanding, but still knew that they would fail his test so that his master plan for humanity could proceed.

Either way, I suppose God was behind it all.

Therefore, original sin, and all sin for that matter, is the fault of God.  Why is it then that we must suffer for eternity?

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Lorddave

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2010, 03:15:30 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2010, 03:19:07 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.

Then get tortured for eternity by that parent? 

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2010, 03:20:56 PM »
Apples did not exist back then. Bible debunked.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Lorddave

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2010, 03:47:26 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.

Then get tortured for eternity by that parent? 

Well we do tell kids that if they don't behave they'll ruin their lives.  God just thinks bigger.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2010, 03:49:35 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.

Then get tortured for eternity by that parent? 

Well we do tell kids that if they don't behave they'll ruin their lives.  God just thinks bigger.

Big time.  Parents usually aren't the ones exacting punishment on their grown children.

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Lorddave

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2010, 04:09:43 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.

Then get tortured for eternity by that parent? 

Well we do tell kids that if they don't behave they'll ruin their lives.  God just thinks bigger.

Big time.  Parents usually aren't the ones exacting punishment on their grown children.

Well God is a prick.  Or someone is lying.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2010, 04:53:32 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

Why did Adam and Eve need to be tested? God already knew what would happen, because it was planned.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2010, 05:14:48 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

Why did Adam and Eve need to be tested? God already knew what would happen, because it was planned.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2010, 05:16:41 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.

God didn't put the fruit there hoping the would eat it, he put it their knowing they would eat it.
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Muphci

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2010, 08:32:53 PM »
God didn't put the fruit there hoping the would eat it, he put it there knowing they would eat it.

Like Pandora's box.

Also, fix'd.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2010, 11:09:07 AM »
Right, we know that he knew they'd eat it.  What doesn't make any sense is that he'd punish them and all of humanity for it.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2010, 12:34:37 PM »
Right, we know that he knew they'd eat it.  What doesn't make any sense is Christianity...

Fix'd

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17 November

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Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2010, 03:08:04 AM »
Original sin. The Christian term for what Adam and Eve committed in the Garden of Eden. If you're unfamiliar with it, God put a tree in the middle of Eden and said that if they ate from the tree, they would die. In truth, it simply meant if they ate from the tree then they would become mortal, and die of old age (at least that's what I've heard). Alternatively, it could mean their souls died, but I digress.
You can guess what happened. Eve ate from the tree, and made Adam eat, after being asked to by a devil-figure in the guise of a snake. Because of this, they and the rest of humanity were flung out of Eden. They 'died' as the Bible said. And because of this, their descendants, their children were all punished for this iniquity.
The children were put to death, if you will.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You have brought out an excellent point with reguard to a pattern of twisting what scripture says - often for various ulterior purposes.

I wanted to say that back in the 1950's John Romanides, a greek writer, wrote a book entitled

Original Sin According to Saint Paul
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm

which was subsequently expanded to

'The Ancestral Sin'
http://www.amazon.com/Ancestral-sin-John-S-Romanides/dp/0970730314

which explains how Augustine (and the medieval west which adopted his erroneous ideas beginning especially during the time of Charlegmagne and the Carolingian Franks who even captured the papacy by the year 999 - the year of the last Roman pope) perverted the ancient Christian understanding of this subject.  I will not go into all the detail, but Romanides says that Augustine originated the false idea that guilt is inherited by the descendents of Adam.  

Romanides book was controversial in 1950's Greece because western ideas including Augustinianism ironically enough began to penetrate greek speaking Orthodox Christians precisely because of the 1820's greek revolution against Turkey (which muslim state actually served as a blessing for eastern Christians because it ultimately tended to protect their Church from infiltration by western ideas).  Unlike the ancient Theological School of Salonica, the University of Athens Theological Seminary was founded in the mid-1800's by protestant and papist influenced individuals (basically papists in greek dress), and its theology in the 1950's still reflected this westernism.  Hence, Romanides's anti-Augustine thesis was initially rejected, but was eventually accepted and papism's greek champion Panagiotes Trembellas lost much influence.  The papists changed their strategy by adopting a less intellectual approach known as the "Zoe" ("Life") movement in an effort to appeal to young people in Greece.  The rise of the Zoe movement in the 1960's was promoted by the right-wing Greek junta government which is no surprise since the Vatican (after 999 A.D.) has always been associated with despicable right-wing causes from the crusades and inquisition to colonialism, nazism and anti-communism, etc.

Augustine has many other problems such as a thoughtless approach to understanding women and their relation to men which ideas are foreign to the Church Fathers in the east and west.  A balanced book which is neither mysogynist nor feminist, the Fords often aptly quote well known feminist writers who corroborate their case.  One such example is a feminist writer who pointed out the mysoginism (hatred of women) which was common to both Augustine and the heretic Tertullian, and this same feminist author asserted that this mysoginism was not to be found in the writings of Saint Irenaeus of Lyon, a disciple of Saint John the Apostle and a second century western Church Father. (Augustine himself is not a Church Father and was only accepted as such in Greece for the very first time in 1965! when the apostate so-called patriarch of Constantinople recognized the papacy for the first time since 1009 A.D. - an indication of apostasy - not progress).  David and Mary Ford have written a definitive answer to western ideas about men and women including both Augustinianism and more modern ideas from the west.

'Women and Men in the Early Church:  The Full Views of Saint John Chrysostom'
By David and Mary Ford
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Men-Early-Church-Chrysostom/dp/1878997556
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Men-Early-Church-Chrysostom/product-reviews/1878997556

The late John Romanides is the strongest and ablest critic of the papacy I have ever come across largely because of how he understands it including how it degenerated into the evil force that it has been for so long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Romanides

http://www.romanity.org/

I wanted to add that Adam knew that what he did was wrong which makes him more guilty than Eve, and that this digression into sin by Adam and Eve was reversed in the case of Jesus and Mary.  Sin entered into humanity through a woman, but its abolition was also facilitated by a woman.