Does design = designer?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2010, 08:01:57 AM »
exactly, the two examples do not even compare.  Painters do not conjure their paintings out of nothing.  You also cannot compare such known designed processes to evolution, since life reproduces, with modifications, and paintings do not.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2010, 03:52:28 PM »
Just the idea that something was "designed" implies something intelligent having designed it.  If evolution is truly fully mechanical, with no intelligent creator behind it, then it cannot be referred to as designed.

Yes. But something can appear "designed" without actually being designed in an intelligent product meaning.

There are also multiple definitions of "design", which confuses the issue.

Of course, but surely even you recognize that being designed and appearing to be designed are two different things.

I asked you this as it pertains to Michelangelo (partially re-quoted from above) ... >>
Quote
and although you may not have seen any of his original works, or met him personally, or even seen him alive, or physically with your own eyes see him in action, -
Then I finished with a series of 4 or 5 questions of which you answered NO.  Now apply that scenario, the questions, and your answers to the topic heading.

Really, if you have a point, please either state it or drop it.  Obviously your question relates to the topic, I just don't see what connection you're trying to make.  If you feel it's so obvious that you don't even have to say it then surely you can figure out some way to put it into words.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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babsinva

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2010, 07:29:37 PM »


I hear what you are saying, and understand your point about "appearance", but if you will consider this for a moment.   Everyone has heard of sculptor and painter Michelangelo, and although you may not have seen any of his original works, or met him personally, or even seen him alive, or physically with your own eyes see him in action, - would you then still deny his existence?  Does it diminish his work not knowing those other things?  Do you need to have met him to believe he was the designer of his works?  Do you think his works came into existence without him?  Do you think it's an "appearance" of design and not really a design?

No.  What's your point, exactly?

Your answer.   
That is the point.



Explain.

I asked you this as it pertains to Michelangelo (partially re-quoted from above) ... >>
Quote
and although you may not have seen any of his original works, or met him personally, or even seen him alive, or physically with your own eyes see him in action, -
Then I finished with a series of 4 or 5 questions of which you answered NO.  Now apply that scenario, the questions, and your answers to the topic heading.

Really, if you have a point, please either state it or drop it.  Obviously your question relates to the topic, I just don't see what connection you're trying to make.  If you feel it's so obvious that you don't even have to say it then surely you can figure out some way to put it into words.

If I was unclear I will take the responsibility for that.  What I'm trying to say is that since you do not think "not have seen any of his original works, or met him personally, or even seen him alive, or physically with your own eyes see him in action," would it in any way deny his existence, or diminish his work, or discount him as the designer of those works, or in any way come into existence by itself, or just be an appearance of a design, and not a design,  - then could you not say the same about the One Creator?  When you answered No to the above questions, then you were agreeing you cannot separate Michelangelo as designer from his designs.  Would that not apply to God?

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2010, 08:50:48 PM »
If I was unclear I will take the responsibility for that.  What I'm trying to say is that since you do not think "not have seen any of his original works, or met him personally, or even seen him alive, or physically with your own eyes see him in action," would it in any way deny his existence, or diminish his work, or discount him as the designer of those works, or in any way come into existence by itself, or just be an appearance of a design, and not a design,  - then could you not say the same about the One Creator?  When you answered No to the above questions, then you were agreeing you cannot separate Michelangelo as designer from his designs.  Would that not apply to God?

Oh.

What evidence do I have of the existence of the One Creator, then?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Crustinator

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2010, 09:39:27 AM »
but surely even you recognize that being designed and appearing to be designed are two different things.

They are two different things which are often indistinguishable, especially to those not seeking to distinguish.

See religion for details.

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babsinva

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2010, 12:52:39 PM »
If I was unclear I will take the responsibility for that.  What I'm trying to say is that since you do not think "not have seen any of his original works, or met him personally, or even seen him alive, or physically with your own eyes see him in action," would it in any way deny his existence, or diminish his work, or discount him as the designer of those works, or in any way come into existence by itself, or just be an appearance of a design, and not a design,  - then could you not say the same about the One Creator?  When you answered No to the above questions, then you were agreeing you cannot separate Michelangelo as designer from his designs.  Would that not apply to God?

Oh.

What evidence do I have of the existence of the One Creator, then?


Everything I said above.  But then again, I think Crusty said it best. >>
but surely even you recognize that being designed and appearing to be designed are two different things.

They are two different things which are often indistinguishable, especially to those not seeking to distinguish.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Crustinator

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2010, 03:38:40 PM »
Yes. Although my post was meant to reflect the pseudo fact that the religious will not seek to distinguish appearance-of-design from actual-design, and instead stick with "The Spaghetti Monster done it".

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2010, 07:29:09 PM »
Yes. Although my post was meant to reflect the pseudo fact that the religious will not seek to distinguish appearance-of-design from actual-design, and instead stick with "The Spaghetti Monster done it".

Yeah, I thought you said it pretty well.  It's no surprise to me that it blew over Babs' head that you were taking a shot at religion there.

Babs, are you one of those people who believes that every time someone sees the image of Jesus in their cereal or something they are witnessing a miracle?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2010, 10:05:51 AM »
Science by definition doesn't allow for supernatural explanations for things that we can observe. It provides a perfectly valid and sufficient means of explaining the origins of the universe and the human race, but only if you choose to believe that supernatural explanations are always invalid.

And no, the appearance of design does not require a designer, but it would seem to suggest it.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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babsinva

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2010, 09:10:15 PM »
Yes. Although my post was meant to reflect the pseudo fact that the religious will not seek to distinguish appearance-of-design from actual-design, and instead stick with "The Spaghetti Monster done it".

Yeah, I thought you said it pretty well.  It's no surprise to me that it blew over Babs' head that you were taking a shot at religion there.

I knew what Crusty meant, but the door swings both ways.

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2010, 06:47:58 PM »
What evidence do I have of the existence of the One Creator, then?


Everything I said above.

I think we've gotten away from this and I still want a real answer.  My point in asking that was that your analogy to Michelango was not a good analogy, because whether I've met Michelangelo or even seen one of his works of art with my own eyes etc I know there's a lot of real, concrete evidence that Michelangelo existed, independent of what he created.  What parallel evidence do I have for God's existence?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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babsinva

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2010, 08:25:06 PM »
What evidence do I have of the existence of the One Creator, then?


Everything I said above.

I think we've gotten away from this and I still want a real answer.  My point in asking that was that your analogy to Michelango was not a good analogy, because whether I've met Michelangelo or even seen one of his works of art with my own eyes etc I know there's a lot of real, concrete evidence that Michelangelo existed, independent of what he created.  What parallel evidence do I have for God's existence?

You can never get a real answer as you say, if you don't want it, and are not seeking.  If I bring up secular historical books, they are rejected;  if I bring up artifacts they are rejected; if I bring up prophecies fulfilled, they too are rejected, if I give example using Michelangelo it is rejected; and if I bring up Biblical scriptures that are historically accurate, it is rejected.  To hear and to listen are 2 different things.  I cannot give you what YOU want as acceptable proof, for no one can do that for you, but YOU.  Your mind is closed; your heart is hardened, and I cannot do anything for you now, except pray for you.

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Mykael

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2010, 08:43:39 PM »
Pray harder, babs!

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2010, 09:14:04 PM »
What evidence do I have of the existence of the One Creator, then?


Everything I said above.

I think we've gotten away from this and I still want a real answer.  My point in asking that was that your analogy to Michelango was not a good analogy, because whether I've met Michelangelo or even seen one of his works of art with my own eyes etc I know there's a lot of real, concrete evidence that Michelangelo existed, independent of what he created.  What parallel evidence do I have for God's existence?

You can never get a real answer as you say, if you don't want it, and are not seeking.  If I bring up secular historical books, they are rejected;  if I bring up artifacts they are rejected; if I bring up prophecies fulfilled, they too are rejected, if I give example using Michelangelo it is rejected; and if I bring up Biblical scriptures that are historically accurate, it is rejected.  To hear and to listen are 2 different things.  I cannot give you what YOU want as acceptable proof, for no one can do that for you, but YOU.  Your mind is closed; your heart is hardened, and I cannot do anything for you now, except pray for you.

You fail to see that artifacts of a town and secular historians talking about wars or assasinations that also were recorded in the bible do not prove the magical acts of the bible.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2010, 09:22:20 PM »
Babs, the movie Titanic is based on verified historical events and features many real events and real people in it.  But (I do hope this doesn't disappoint you, if you happen to be a fan of the movie) Jack and Rose never really existed.

There is no evidence that the divine and miraculous events that occurred in the Bible occurred in real life.  The fact that some of its history is real is not a valid reason to believe the whole thing.  Based on folk stories as it is, naturally some of what it says is going to be genuinely historical.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2010, 07:30:23 AM »
The book Harry Potter depicts cities in locations in which they actually existed I.E. London. Does this make the story of Harry Potter true? There are also artifacts such as broom sticks and chocolate covered frogs that have been found.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2010, 08:14:50 AM »
There is also evidence that Odin may have been an actual person well before the Vikings adopted him as their cheif god.  Does that mean we should believe the mythology about Odin?

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Muphci

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Re: Does design = designer?
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2010, 08:36:02 AM »
Yes.
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