James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon

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Lorddave

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2010, 08:42:50 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

You said so yourself that ENaG is mostly junk.
Hell the Old Beford Level Experiment contradicts several other FET ideas, including ENaG's own reason why things vanish from the bottom to the top!
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Crustinator

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2010, 09:03:49 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

But you haven't presented any evidence. Remember? Only data is evidence and you won't show us your 15 boxes of files.

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Lorddave

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2010, 09:09:01 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

But you haven't presented any evidence. Remember? Only data is evidence and you won't show us your 15 boxes of files.

He's talking about the FET books.
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Crustinator

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2010, 09:15:14 AM »
He's talking about the FET books.

Yes but they do not contain data, only descriptions of experiments.

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d00gz

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2010, 09:17:43 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2010, 09:31:33 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

How bout you don't make baseless accusations. If someone points out the fact that the "evidence" is false, would that not discredit it?

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d00gz

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2010, 09:44:21 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

How bout you don't make baseless accusations. If someone points out the fact that the "evidence" is false, would that not discredit it?

If it's a fact, and there is proof to support it, fair enough.

But simply saying "It's fake" is a different matter altogether. I think you missed the point of my first post. So either you're dumb, or you're a dumb troll.

Have a nice day.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2010, 10:36:56 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

How bout you don't make baseless accusations. If someone points out the fact that the "evidence" is false, would that not discredit it?

If it's a fact, and there is proof to support it, fair enough.

But simply saying "It's fake" is a different matter altogether. I think you missed the point of my first post. So either you're dumb, or you're a dumb troll.

Have a nice day.

There is nothing wrong with simply saying that something is fake if it is indeed fake. There is also no need for personal attacks.

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Lorddave

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2010, 10:41:26 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

How bout you don't make baseless accusations. If someone points out the fact that the "evidence" is false, would that not discredit it?

If it's a fact, and there is proof to support it, fair enough.

But simply saying "It's fake" is a different matter altogether. I think you missed the point of my first post. So either you're dumb, or you're a dumb troll.

Have a nice day.

There is nothing wrong with simply saying that something is fake if it is indeed fake. There is also no need for personal attacks.

The argument isn't that something being fake isn't a reason to discredit it, it's saying that you need to PROVE it's fake prior to saying it's fake.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2010, 10:43:34 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

How bout you don't make baseless accusations. If someone points out the fact that the "evidence" is false, would that not discredit it?

If it's a fact, and there is proof to support it, fair enough.

But simply saying "It's fake" is a different matter altogether. I think you missed the point of my first post. So either you're dumb, or you're a dumb troll.

Have a nice day.

There is nothing wrong with simply saying that something is fake if it is indeed fake. There is also no need for personal attacks.

The argument isn't that something being fake isn't a reason to discredit it, it's saying that you need to PROVE it's fake prior to saying it's fake.

Please show an example where FE'ers have called something faked and not at some point shown evidence for it.

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General Disarray

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2010, 10:47:50 AM »
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39515.msg988274#msg988274

No evidence has been provided of that picture being faked.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2010, 10:53:02 AM »
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39515.msg988274#msg988274

No evidence has been provided of that picture being faked.

Tom Bishop provided plenty if you paid attention in that thread.

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General Disarray

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2010, 10:54:22 AM »
Tom Bishop provided a few websites making unsubstantiated claims about NASA being a fraudulent organization, but nothing about pictures of earth from space being faked.
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Lorddave

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2010, 10:56:12 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

Surely the same rule applies for any RE evidence?

Please note, saying "It's clearly fake" does not count as discrediting.

So evidence being fake does not discredit it as evidence?

If you're gonna troll, at least be good at it.

How bout you don't make baseless accusations. If someone points out the fact that the "evidence" is false, would that not discredit it?

If it's a fact, and there is proof to support it, fair enough.

But simply saying "It's fake" is a different matter altogether. I think you missed the point of my first post. So either you're dumb, or you're a dumb troll.

Have a nice day.

There is nothing wrong with simply saying that something is fake if it is indeed fake. There is also no need for personal attacks.

The argument isn't that something being fake isn't a reason to discredit it, it's saying that you need to PROVE it's fake prior to saying it's fake.

Please show an example where FE'ers have called something faked and not at some point shown evidence for it.

http://osopher.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/earth_rise.jpg

Basically they say it was faked.  They then show, as evidence, the possibility of being able to fake it.  They don't show it WAS faked, but show how it could have been faked.
They then take apart all the pictures known about the moon landing and find flaws in them.  When they find said flaws (or what they think are flaws) they use that as evidence of forgery when it could very easily be something else.

Take the "c" on the rock.  Not only do prop artists NOT label rocks with letters but there are millions of pictures with odd artifacts in them.  Doesn't make them fake, just means something happened during processing or when the picture was taken.  AND NASA has released the photo reprocessed from the negative. A reprocessed photo shows no "c" on the rock. The conclusion is that a hair got caught on the photo as it was being developed, possibly an eyelash.  

Then you have someone like Tom Bishop who uses photoshop and a picture of the sun from the Moon to show that it's a spotlight.  How does he do it?  He changes the contrast(or some setting).  He points to the image at high contrast and says "See?  It's a stage light".  All the while not realizing that what he's doing is horribly flawed AND without taking a picture using the same camera, of the sun on Earth and doing the same thing to compare.

Never has anyone produced papers showing that money was being funneled into other bank accounts from NASA instead of space projects.
Never has anyone gotten an eye witness or camera footage of them faking anything when it was live.  Footage of training simulation construction or movie sets don't count.


But in the end, the difference in the word evidence is subjective.  To FEers, Evidence is anything that shows FET is correct (or that RET is wrong).  This doesn't require anything more than vague logic.  

Hell, ENaG is full of thought experiments but very little experimental data, equations, or actual work.  And some of the thought experiments violate the laws of physics.  Cannon ball on a moving ship comes to mind as being one.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2010, 11:07:51 AM »
Tom Bishop provided a few websites making unsubstantiated claims about NASA being a fraudulent organization, but nothing about pictures of earth from space being faked.

Your joking correct? Tom Bishop explained both how they were faked by NASA and where those photos are from.

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General Disarray

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2010, 11:11:13 AM »
Tom Bishop provided a few websites making unsubstantiated claims about NASA being a fraudulent organization, but nothing about pictures of earth from space being faked.

Your joking correct? Tom Bishop explained both how they were faked by NASA and where those photos are from.

Not joking at all, he explained how he thought they might have been faked, but provided no evidence that such manipulation was present in the photograph or others like it.
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Lorddave

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2010, 11:12:06 AM »
Tom Bishop provided a few websites making unsubstantiated claims about NASA being a fraudulent organization, but nothing about pictures of earth from space being faked.

Your joking correct? Tom Bishop explained both how they were faked by NASA and where those photos are from.

Tom Bishop's logic is this:

If it can be faked, it IS faked.

For example:
It's easy to fake photos of the Gulf Oil spill.  Pictures of birds covered in Oil, blobs of oil gushing out from a pipe, ect... All is easily faked with modern CGI and movie magic.

By tom's logic, that means it IS fake.  

Simply proving something could be faked is not the same as proving it IS faked.
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BtheB

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2010, 11:40:06 AM »
Tom Bishop provided a few websites making unsubstantiated claims about NASA being a fraudulent organization, but nothing about pictures of earth from space being faked.

Your joking correct? Tom Bishop explained both how they were faked by NASA and where those photos are from.

Not joking at all, he explained how he thought they might have been faked, but provided no evidence that such manipulation was present in the photograph or others like it.

Here's how it works...

Evidence for RE: No such thing.  Since the Earth is flat, anything that appears to be evidence for RE is actually evidence for FE.

Evidence for FE: Anything at all.  From pictures of the clearly round Earth to the voices inside FE'ers heads, everything in existence is solid evidence that the Earth is flat.

So as you see, if Tom Bishop posted anything in that thread at all, it counts as evidence for FE.  As does everything you posted.

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Username

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2010, 11:51:29 AM »
Unless you can discredit the evidence it presents...

But you haven't presented any evidence. Remember? Only data is evidence and you won't show us your 15 boxes of files.
Why in gods name would I present evidence for this?
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trig

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2010, 01:32:54 PM »
But without any energy input, the moon would have shrunk noticeably over the course of human history, possibly even in our lifetime.
The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable.  This is likely why Round Earthers often hold that the moon is moving away from us at 4cm per year.
And where is your data?

You are not able to explain why the Moon is the same apparent size when near the zenith compared to when it is near the horizon, and you are not able to explain why it has the same approximate brightness in both cases (provided it is in the same phase), but you are noticing that it is becoming smaller?

Can't you see that if it is getting smaller, say by 1% every year so your comment has any sense, it will become half its size in your probable lifetime? and it would have been absolutely gigantic when historic times started, around 8000 years ago? Was the Sun also some 20 or 50 times bigger in Babylonian times? And you are the only one that has noticed? Maybe the Conspiracy began soon after the Babylonians, because they knew in the 20th century it would be necessary to cover up the frauds made by the NASA, and they were the ones that hid the size of the Sun and Moon for millenia. Or maybe the Sun was not bigger than today, and total eclipses of the Moon were also hidden by the Babylonian Conspiracy?

You are either a mindless inventor of crap or a troll. I hope you are a troll, because it is so sad to see the others...

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Part of the Problem

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2010, 01:51:49 PM »
Nice to see this thread get derailed so quickly.

Quote from: James
A Summary of the Salient Facts So Far Established
* Moonlight is highly injurous to plants, animals and humans (this attested by Lardner, subjected to empirical experiment by myself)

I've been waiting for a long time for James' evidence pointing towards the harmfulness of moonlight towards humans.  I have slept under the moonlight a few times since the last time I asked him about this and I have yet to incur any health problems as a result.
By eliminating all present contradicting possibilities you would arrive at the present truth. It's impossible to arrive at a future truth.

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General Disarray

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2010, 01:52:47 PM »
RE'ers hold the belief that the moon is moving away from us slowly because of reflecting lasers off the mirrors left there by the Apollo missions, not just because it appears to be getting smaller.
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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2010, 01:59:47 PM »
I'm still wondering about his explanation for "The Sun puts out fires" and "The moon causes fires".  He merely stated that "it it well known" and "it has been observed", without properly backing up those ludicrous statements.

Delivery:

Well from Google, the first hit was this thread, but I also got a Nature article from 1877, I lie to you not
check it out here http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v16/n414/abs/016477b0.html

FE'ers like Tom, Ichi, and Levee are experts at finding old an outdate sources to proved their claims,
the theory here is that combustion occurs at a lower rate in air that has been rarefied by the Sun.
Note that the article I'm using as a source is questioning the validity of the Sun extinguisher theory.
And If you use the Ichimaru logic of cause and effect, since moonlight is basically darkness empiraclly

Good God... like the way they keep clinging desperately to ENaG?  It seems they think that, just because it's a published book, all of its content is 100% correct.  "But it's written in the book!! How can it possibly be wrong?!"...

Sad part is, not only is this one of the only pieces of evidence on the internet for James' theory, but it is actually a debunk of said proof. The terms used are even outdated

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Lorddave

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2010, 02:56:23 PM »
But without any energy input, the moon would have shrunk noticeably over the course of human history, possibly even in our lifetime.
The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable.  This is likely why Round Earthers often hold that the moon is moving away from us at 4cm per year.
And where is your data?

You are not able to explain why the Moon is the same apparent size when near the zenith compared to when it is near the horizon, and you are not able to explain why it has the same approximate brightness in both cases (provided it is in the same phase), but you are noticing that it is becoming smaller?

Can't you see that if it is getting smaller, say by 1% every year so your comment has any sense, it will become half its size in your probable lifetime? and it would have been absolutely gigantic when historic times started, around 8000 years ago? Was the Sun also some 20 or 50 times bigger in Babylonian times? And you are the only one that has noticed? Maybe the Conspiracy began soon after the Babylonians, because they knew in the 20th century it would be necessary to cover up the frauds made by the NASA, and they were the ones that hid the size of the Sun and Moon for millenia. Or maybe the Sun was not bigger than today, and total eclipses of the Moon were also hidden by the Babylonian Conspiracy?

You are either a mindless inventor of crap or a troll. I hope you are a troll, because it is so sad to see the others...

The moon is moving away from us.  It's going so slowly that any change in apparent size is so small we don't notice it.  What's 4cm/year?  half a nanometer in diameter lost?
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trig

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2010, 07:00:21 PM »
But without any energy input, the moon would have shrunk noticeably over the course of human history, possibly even in our lifetime.
The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable.  This is likely why Round Earthers often hold that the moon is moving away from us at 4cm per year.
And where is your data?

You are not able to explain why the Moon is the same apparent size when near the zenith compared to when it is near the horizon, and you are not able to explain why it has the same approximate brightness in both cases (provided it is in the same phase), but you are noticing that it is becoming smaller?

Can't you see that if it is getting smaller, say by 1% every year so your comment has any sense, it will become half its size in your probable lifetime? and it would have been absolutely gigantic when historic times started, around 8000 years ago? Was the Sun also some 20 or 50 times bigger in Babylonian times? And you are the only one that has noticed? Maybe the Conspiracy began soon after the Babylonians, because they knew in the 20th century it would be necessary to cover up the frauds made by the NASA, and they were the ones that hid the size of the Sun and Moon for millenia. Or maybe the Sun was not bigger than today, and total eclipses of the Moon were also hidden by the Babylonian Conspiracy?

You are either a mindless inventor of crap or a troll. I hope you are a troll, because it is so sad to see the others...

The moon is moving away from us.  It's going so slowly that any change in apparent size is so small we don't notice it.  What's 4cm/year?  half a nanometer in diameter lost?
Four centimeters per year is not much in the real world. But in the "flat Earth" idea, it means that the Moon and Sun were at sea level some 120000000 years ago, in the middle of the Dinosaur era.

Anyhow, John Davis was not talking about those 4 cm/year, since that is not noticeable, unless NASA really did go to the Moon and placed reflectors on its surface. This quote: "The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable" has to come from somewhere, and I really would like John to tell me from where.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2010, 07:23:40 PM »
But without any energy input, the moon would have shrunk noticeably over the course of human history, possibly even in our lifetime.
The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable.  This is likely why Round Earthers often hold that the moon is moving away from us at 4cm per year.
And where is your data?

You are not able to explain why the Moon is the same apparent size when near the zenith compared to when it is near the horizon, and you are not able to explain why it has the same approximate brightness in both cases (provided it is in the same phase), but you are noticing that it is becoming smaller?

Can't you see that if it is getting smaller, say by 1% every year so your comment has any sense, it will become half its size in your probable lifetime? and it would have been absolutely gigantic when historic times started, around 8000 years ago? Was the Sun also some 20 or 50 times bigger in Babylonian times? And you are the only one that has noticed? Maybe the Conspiracy began soon after the Babylonians, because they knew in the 20th century it would be necessary to cover up the frauds made by the NASA, and they were the ones that hid the size of the Sun and Moon for millenia. Or maybe the Sun was not bigger than today, and total eclipses of the Moon were also hidden by the Babylonian Conspiracy?

You are either a mindless inventor of crap or a troll. I hope you are a troll, because it is so sad to see the others...

The moon is moving away from us.  It's going so slowly that any change in apparent size is so small we don't notice it.  What's 4cm/year?  half a nanometer in diameter lost?
Four centimeters per year is not much in the real world. But in the "flat Earth" idea, it means that the Moon and Sun were at sea level some 120000000 years ago, in the middle of the Dinosaur era.

Anyhow, John Davis was not talking about those 4 cm/year, since that is not noticeable, unless NASA really did go to the Moon and placed reflectors on its surface. This quote: "The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable" has to come from somewhere, and I really would like John to tell me from where.

Actually lunar ranging experiments with lasers suggest the moon is only moving 38mm a year away from the earth. This is explained by the fact that the Moon is eating itself so is actually shrinking by 38 mm a year.

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General Disarray

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2010, 07:59:35 PM »
This is explained by the fact that the Moon is eating itself so is actually shrinking by 38 mm a year.

You said "fact" so you must have evidence that there is life on the moon, right?
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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #87 on: June 15, 2010, 09:20:54 PM »
But without any energy input, the moon would have shrunk noticeably over the course of human history, possibly even in our lifetime.
The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable.  This is likely why Round Earthers often hold that the moon is moving away from us at 4cm per year.
And where is your data?

You are not able to explain why the Moon is the same apparent size when near the zenith compared to when it is near the horizon, and you are not able to explain why it has the same approximate brightness in both cases (provided it is in the same phase), but you are noticing that it is becoming smaller?

Can't you see that if it is getting smaller, say by 1% every year so your comment has any sense, it will become half its size in your probable lifetime? and it would have been absolutely gigantic when historic times started, around 8000 years ago? Was the Sun also some 20 or 50 times bigger in Babylonian times? And you are the only one that has noticed? Maybe the Conspiracy began soon after the Babylonians, because they knew in the 20th century it would be necessary to cover up the frauds made by the NASA, and they were the ones that hid the size of the Sun and Moon for millenia. Or maybe the Sun was not bigger than today, and total eclipses of the Moon were also hidden by the Babylonian Conspiracy?

You are either a mindless inventor of crap or a troll. I hope you are a troll, because it is so sad to see the others...

The moon is moving away from us.  It's going so slowly that any change in apparent size is so small we don't notice it.  What's 4cm/year?  half a nanometer in diameter lost?
Four centimeters per year is not much in the real world. But in the "flat Earth" idea, it means that the Moon and Sun were at sea level some 120000000 years ago, in the middle of the Dinosaur era.

Anyhow, John Davis was not talking about those 4 cm/year, since that is not noticeable, unless NASA really did go to the Moon and placed reflectors on its surface. This quote: "The moon is getting smaller.  And it is noticeable" has to come from somewhere, and I really would like John to tell me from where.

Actually lunar ranging experiments with lasers suggest the moon is only moving 38mm a year away from the earth. This is explained by the fact that the Moon is eating itself so is actually shrinking by 38 mm a year.

And now we know that you're a DA.
because any real FE'er would know that those two values aren't equivalent.
if the moon is 3000km away, then 4cm added
you get
3,000,000/3,000,000.04=x/30,000
so we get x to be 29,999.9996
so the change in size is .0004m= .4mm
Thanks for playing

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markjo

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2010, 09:36:02 PM »
*sigh*  You guys haven't been paying attention.  John isn't claiming that the moon is moving away from the FE.  He's claiming that the moon is shrinking at a rate that would make it appear that it's moving away from the RE at a rate of about 4cm per year.  How can you guys expect to challenge FET if you don't understand FET?  ::)
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jackofhearts

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Re: James' Ideas on the Sun and Moon
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2010, 04:11:59 AM »
*sigh*  You guys haven't been paying attention.  John isn't claiming that the moon is moving away from the FE.  He's claiming that the moon is shrinking at a rate that would make it appear that it's moving away from the RE at a rate of about 4cm per year.  How can you guys expect to challenge FET if you don't understand FET?  ::)

If John Davis is correct, then the craters, landmarks, etc on the Moon will stay the same size.  If RE'ers are correct, everything about the moon will shrink proportionately.

Trolling makes me angry.