The Five Proofs of God

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EnglshGentleman

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The Five Proofs of God
« on: June 09, 2010, 11:10:46 PM »
St. Thomas Aquinas' five proofs, I decided to post it for funnsies. Post your agreement or disagreement with them.


The First Way: Argument from Motion

   1.Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
   2.Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
   3.Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
   4.Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
   5.Therefore nothing can move itself.
   6.Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
   7.The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
   8.Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

   1.We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
   2.Nothing exists prior to itself.
   3.Therefore nothing is the efficient cause of itself.
   4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results.
   5.Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
   6.The series of efficient causes cannot extend ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
   7.Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument)

   1.We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings.
   2.Assume that every being is a contingent being.
   3.For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist.
   4.Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist.
   5.Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed.
   6.Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence.
   7.Therefore, nothing would be in existence now.
   8.We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being.
   9.Therefore not every being is a contingent being.
  10.Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God.

The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being

   1.There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others.
   2.Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest).
   3.The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus.
   4.Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The Fifth Way: Argument from Design

   1.We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.
   2.Most natural things lack knowledge.  
   3.But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence.
   4.Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 09:42:42 AM by EnglshGentleman »

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Slemon

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 02:34:48 AM »
One question: where does God come from then?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Pongo

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 03:06:36 AM »
"In his Proslogion, Anselm put forward a proof of the existence of God called the ontological argument; although this type of proof had been produced by Avicenna some time before. The term itself was first applied by Kant to the arguments of Seventeenth- and Eighteenth-Century rationalists. Anselm defined his belief in the existence of God using the phrase "that than which nothing greater can be conceived". He reasoned that, if "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" existed only in the intellect, it would not be "that than which nothing greater can be conceived", since it can be thought to exist in reality, which is greater. It follows, according to Anselm, that "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" must exist in reality. The bulk of the Proslogion is taken up with Anselm's attempt to establish the identity of "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" as God, and thus to establish that God exists in reality."

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Trekky0623

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 08:33:16 AM »
The proofs assume that:

1. God is exempt from the reasoning in the proof (everything must be created, except God).

2. The laws of Physics and cause and effect existed before the Universe, i.e. the Universe had to have been caused. However, there is no reason for this to be true. Cause and effect are laws of an existing Universe.

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Tea.

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2010, 08:46:41 AM »
From talking to people I find that the argument from Design is the only widely used one... it's also the most stupid. Dawkins does a casual debunking of these in The God Delusion.

Also, you might like this: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
I don't believe in Homeopathy, Hydroplates, Faith-healing, Acupuncture, Astrology,  ghosts, witchcraft, Intelligent Design, Cellular Cosmogony, Geocentrism, Phrenology, Séances, Dianetics or God.

I'm on this forum because friends say I'm narrow-minded.

Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2010, 09:20:40 AM »
I have a very simple argument against a god, or any gods:
Where is he?

I've seen theists say "Look out your window to see the self-evident existence of God". But what do I see? I see:
-Clouds
-Trees
-Buildings
-The ocean
-And so many other things

No, I don't see any Gods or supernatural forces. Our world seems to be working so perfectly without God, that it's a wonder anyone can still believe in it. Show me your god and I will believe. That's the only proof I need. Stop going to the very limits of our knowledge. What use is a God that can only be found in what we don't know?

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Slemon

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2010, 09:22:06 AM »
I have a very simple argument against a god, or any gods:
Where is he?

I've seen theists say "Look out your window to see the self-evident existence of God". But what do I see? I see:
-Clouds
-Trees
-Buildings
-The ocean
-And so many other things

No, I don't see any Gods or supernatural forces. Our world seems to be working so perfectly without God, that it's a wonder anyone can still believe in it. Show me your god and I will believe. That's the only proof I need. Stop going to the very limits of our knowledge. What use is a God that can only be found in what we don't know?

God is only there if you need to see Him.

Nah, I don't believe that either. Sounds like a cop out.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Tea.

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2010, 09:26:31 AM »
God is only there if you need to see Him.

Nah, I don't believe that either. Sounds like a cop out.


Ha, so what that means is, God is mainly for people who have nothing else? It'd be interesting to compare the correlation between less wealthy nations, and religious belief.
I don't believe in Homeopathy, Hydroplates, Faith-healing, Acupuncture, Astrology,  ghosts, witchcraft, Intelligent Design, Cellular Cosmogony, Geocentrism, Phrenology, Séances, Dianetics or God.

I'm on this forum because friends say I'm narrow-minded.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2010, 09:45:13 AM »
God is only there if you need to see Him.

Nah, I don't believe that either. Sounds like a cop out.


Ha, so what that means is, God is mainly for people who have nothing else? It'd be interesting to compare the correlation between less wealthy nations, and religious belief.

I think this video shows the correlation for that. Or namely, lack of non-belief. Has links in it's sidebar for all it's statistics.
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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2010, 10:18:07 AM »
I have a very simple argument against a god, or any gods:
Where is he?

I've seen theists say "Look out your window to see the self-evident existence of God". But what do I see? I see:
-Clouds
-Trees
-Buildings
-The ocean
-And so many other things

No, I don't see any Gods or supernatural forces. Our world seems to be working so perfectly without God, that it's a wonder anyone can still believe in it. Show me your god and I will believe. That's the only proof I need. Stop going to the very limits of our knowledge. What use is a God that can only be found in what we don't know?

God is only there if you need to see Him.


Nah, I don't believe that either. Sounds like a cop out.

How does perceiving God have any influence on whether or not he actually exists?
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2010, 10:21:08 AM »
I have a very simple argument against a god, or any gods:
Where is he?

I've seen theists say "Look out your window to see the self-evident existence of God". But what do I see? I see:
-Clouds
-Trees
-Buildings
-The ocean
-And so many other things

No, I don't see any Gods or supernatural forces. Our world seems to be working so perfectly without God, that it's a wonder anyone can still believe in it. Show me your god and I will believe. That's the only proof I need. Stop going to the very limits of our knowledge. What use is a God that can only be found in what we don't know?

God is only there if you need to see Him.


Nah, I don't believe that either. Sounds like a cop out.

How does perceiving God have any influence on whether or not he actually exists?

He only seems to exist in the minds of those who already believe: you hear of miracles, which only affect christians, you hear of God's supreme judgement, only seen by christians... The only people who say they've experienced God seem to, for the most part, already believe in him.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2010, 10:25:36 AM »
One question: where does God come from then?

The Super God of course. 

Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »
How does perceiving God have any influence on whether or not he actually exists?

I have no reason to believe in something that has had absolutely no detectable influence in my life or in the lives of any person I have ever met. This is just another way to say "You can't prove he doesn't exist". I don't need or want to prove that he doesn't exist. I just don't have any reason to believe that he does. Your reasons for believing are little more than "Someone told me about god", "The Bible said so" and "I feel his existence".

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2010, 11:45:31 AM »
The Fifth Way: Argument from Design

   1.We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.
   2.Most natural things lack knowledge.  
   3.But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence.
   4.Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

This is one of the dumbest arguments ever, and I hate the fact that people continue to use it to this day.  Intelligent design and chance are not the only two ways that natural bodies can form.  We have this new alternate theory called "natural selection".

Re: The Five Proofs of God
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2010, 03:34:42 PM »
How does perceiving God have any influence on whether or not he actually exists?

I have no reason to believe in something that has had absolutely no detectable influence in my life or in the lives of any person I have ever met. This is just another way to say "You can't prove he doesn't exist". I don't need or want to prove that he doesn't exist. I just don't have any reason to believe that he does. Your reasons for believing are little more than "Someone told me about god", "The Bible said so" and "I feel his existence".

My response was intended to address the bold part; I have never used the "prove a negative" argument to support my belief in God. My belief in a supreme power is based on inner conviction.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.