I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?

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PunyBanner

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Hi to all. This is my first post, but I have been reading through the discussions on the site on and off for a year or so and like most RETers I have a problem with the whole Universal Accelerator thing. To be clear, I am not debating the existence of dark energy as it has its own place in RET also but, obviously, not in the same fashion.
To keep things simple I am going by the FAQ on the subject; since a lot of FETer answers simply refer us noobs to the FAQ I think this is a fair stance to take.

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Q: "What about gravity?"

A1: In the dark energy model, DE accelerates the Earth and all celestial bodies in the universe at 9.81m/s2. This is commonly known as Universal Acceleration, which produces the same effect as "gravity" in our local reference frame. See: Equivalence Principle.

I have real problems with this hypothesis. I am the first to admit that my math and physics skills aren’t great (high school education with two years of college, but that was for media so would be of little use here), so if the following can be explained in a way by FET that is agreeable (from a strictly hypothetical stance, of course) by at least one RETer I am willing to concede the point, as with any point made in any debate.
Firstly if the UA pushes everything up at a constant rate, including things above the world such as the celestial bodies, then if I jump should I not also be subject to this force and remain in mid-air? Unless the force is negated by the blockage of the world and only kicks back in at a certain altitude as it moves back into the space the world has blocked it from, but if that is the case then the atmosplane would be conical in shape, or at least a bit pointy, rather than the dome as claimed by many FETers.

Then there is the problem of sustained space flight. According to the FAQ:

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… sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites cannot orbit the Earth. The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites. However, temporary space-flight is possible.

It then goes on to state:

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Q: "What would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?"

A: You would become directly affected by UA as the Earth is, creating the illusion that you are standing next to it.

Only one of these statements can be true as I understand them. If the UA pushes all things upward at a constant rate then the shuttles and/or satellites originally sent into space should have had no problem with sustained space flight as they would simply need to rest on the (for want of a better term) gravitational cushion provided by the UA, especially when considering:

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The celestial bodies have a slight gravitational pull. Furthermore, a non-inertial relativistic object experiences different rates of acceleration along its length according to Special Relativity, as it is impossible for both ends to accelerate at the same rate without FTL communication between them. The front end accelerates at a lower rate than the rear end. This is why g decreases at higher altitude.

Should this not make sustained space flight not only possible but easier to achieve than in RET? Just break the atmosplane and rest on the UA until you wish to return, at which point you point your ship at the planar earth and hit the thrusters just enough to take you back into the atmosplane and land as normal. Unless of course the gravitational pull of the celestial bodies is too great and would pull us further and further from our lovely flat home, in which case would it not also pull away the outer layers of our atmosplane?
Plus (this is where my lack of physics and maths may come in), what about the differing masses of the earth cylinder and the celestial bodies? Should the UA not affect some more than others? As in the UA has a constant value of force, stated above, which acts on all things. To give an example (which may be a complete misunderstanding of some basic principle, I don’t know, school was a long time ago), if I apply a given force to an object, let’s say a car, I could push it along slowly at first and accelerating as I go. Now let’s say I apply the same force to something smaller, a bicycle maybe. I would be able to start pushing faster and accelerate to my top speed faster then the car allowed. Does this example apply here? Is so how does FET account for it?

Then there is:

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A2: In both the McIntyre and the Bishop model, the Earth is being pushed up by the Universal Accelerator underneath it at 9.8m/s2. This mediates observable gravitational effects in our local reference frame.

Now this response to the question of gravity does not mention the UA acting on celestial bodies. I am not sure if this omission is because there is no need to repeat the hypothetical fact or if it means that within this model the UA acts only on the planar world and nothing else. If the former is true then I refer again to my above objections, if it is the latter however we have real problems. If the UA acts only on our home cylinder then we should have accelerated beyond these celestial bodies a really long time ago.
As I say the omission in A2 could be taken either way so this is just nit-picking really. I would, however, greatly appreciate help resolving in myself the problems I pointed out before this.
Sorry if this has been raised before, but I’m sure there are more proponents on each side of the debate now than there was then who would also like a crack at it.
Also sorry for the long post, thanks for sticking with me (unless you didn’t, in which case you don‘t know what I said so you can‘t answer).
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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Lorddave

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 12:20:33 PM »
The answer to all your questions is...

It's not supposed to make sense.

The UA is believed only by some FEers and it's the "This is the counter to gravity" argument.  Basically everything you'd expect Gravity to do, the UA does.
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trig

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 02:03:43 PM »
Should this not make sustained space flight not only possible but easier to achieve than in RET? Just break the atmosplane and rest on the UA until you wish to return, at which point you point your ship at the planar earth and hit the thrusters just enough to take you back into the atmosplane and land as normal. Unless of course the gravitational pull of the celestial bodies is too great and would pull us further and further from our lovely flat home, in which case would it not also pull away the outer layers of our atmosplane?
Plus (this is where my lack of physics and maths may come in), what about the differing masses of the earth cylinder and the celestial bodies? Should the UA not affect some more than others? As in the UA has a constant value of force, stated above, which acts on all things. To give an example (which may be a complete misunderstanding of some basic principle, I don’t know, school was a long time ago), if I apply a given force to an object, let’s say a car, I could push it along slowly at first and accelerating as I go. Now let’s say I apply the same force to something smaller, a bicycle maybe. I would be able to start pushing faster and accelerate to my top speed faster then the car allowed. Does this example apply here? Is so how does FET account for it?
This question really makes sense: a puny little rocket can lift a manned capsule to 3000 miles high, and you do not even have to reach that altitude with a big speed. For all we know, we do not even have to go as high as 3000 miles high. By contrast, real rockets have to reach about 11.3 km/s (40600 km/h) to escape Earth and do it in such a way as to not burn in the atmosphere before reaching this speed.

But things get murky when the spacecraft reaches that UA-affected area above Earth: no matter what calculations you make, or where on Earth they try to look at you, nobody will be able to predict your location. Whether with or without bendy light, it is impossible to fix your spacecraft's position, brightness and apparent size. You will only be found if someone asks where you would be if Earth was round. And even if there is a way to keep your craft and the stars and planets up there, there is no way whatsoever to make them move to where they are supposed to move so that they match observations done all around the world since before Galileo.

And you are right, there is no reason whatsoever to have all stars, planets, Sun and Moon moving to the right places at the right time so we can see them where we know they will be. You cannot design your theory of bendy-everything and universal-whatever in such a way that planets, stars, the Sun and Moon appear where we see them and where and how we see them every day and night.

Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 04:10:44 PM »
There is one problem which I think makes universal acceleration impossible, as well as the whole idea of a flat earth. First of all, I'm going to grant that the universal acceleration can push some objects and not others, without having to follow the rule of "all or none". Isn't that nice of me?

So, the theory is that Dark Energy pushes the earth upwards with a force pretty much opposite to the known gravity. In the first moment, the earth would accelerate. But as the earth gets further away from the source of dark energy, the pushing force is weakened. At one point, we'll be so far away from the energy source, that we won't be moving anymore. Then nothing would stick to the earth anymore.

Any attempt to counter this argument will inevitably have to resort to creating energy from nothing, violating the most important of the laws of thermodynamics. Or they will have to resort to gravity. But gravity will inevitably pull the earth into a ball shape, given enough time. And don't tell me it won't, the coin argument doesn't work at the macroscopic scale of the earth. Our earth is not a solid, continuous piece of metal, it doesn't have strong electric bonds holding it together.

There is no valid counter argument

What frustrates me is that all flat earth people are dogmatically attached to this idea and will never let it go. They will do one of two things to avoid this question:

1- Invent a theory vague enough to be untestable and unmeasurable
2- Ignore the question, ignore the topic and change the subject.

Nobody will ever think of actually:

3- Proposing a working, specific model to explain the question
4- Change their mind about the flat earth.
5- Admit they did any of the things mentioned in points 1 and 2.

What's wrong with you guys?!

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PunyBanner

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 07:45:01 PM »
Any FETers want to give me an answer? Even using complicated maths and physics, there are others here who can help clarify it for me, or there are plenty of online sources to help me with it. I am willing to try and learn some of this stuff if you think it would help me with the UA problems I have, but I need you to direct me to the right principles so I can do so.
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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Lorddave

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 07:53:43 PM »
There are no right principals.

FET is a sham.  A fake.  A bunch of ideas thrown together with the assumption that the Earth is flat and everything you know is an illusion.  It's members are similar to the members of a Church: They have faith, not facts, yet they believe they have facts.
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PunyBanner

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 08:27:25 PM »
There are no right principals.

FET is a sham.  A fake.  A bunch of ideas thrown together with the assumption that the Earth is flat and everything you know is an illusion.  It's members are similar to the members of a Church: They have faith, not facts, yet they believe they have facts.

I realise this. I am forever debating with religious people too, but at least they say, "It's in this book, look, so it must be true!" I was at least expecting Tom Bishop to use this explaination, or Levee to make an almost full page post with links that amount to, "I'm right, I say I am on this other page which no-one but me agrees with, so that proves I am."
I am very disappointed by this lack of effort on the FETers part.
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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Lorddave

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2010, 03:52:36 AM »
There are no right principals.

FET is a sham.  A fake.  A bunch of ideas thrown together with the assumption that the Earth is flat and everything you know is an illusion.  It's members are similar to the members of a Church: They have faith, not facts, yet they believe they have facts.

I realise this. I am forever debating with religious people too, but at least they say, "It's in this book, look, so it must be true!" I was at least expecting Tom Bishop to use this explaination, or Levee to make an almost full page post with links that amount to, "I'm right, I say I am on this other page which no-one but me agrees with, so that proves I am."
I am very disappointed by this lack of effort on the FETers part.

That's because you don't know how to bait them. Just the RE wins and they come. Works every time.
Gone.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2010, 07:54:40 AM »
Please don't listen to Lorddave, because he is a rabid globularist and is intentionally trying to besmirch this society and its reputation. He does not speak for FE'ers. Instead of listening to jaded drones like him, you should engage in debate and discussion here. I'm not saying you'll come to see things our way; from experience I know this doesn't happen often. But if you take his word for it, then you'll never learn for yourself, and surely that is something worth doing.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Catchpa

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2010, 08:03:37 AM »
Please don't listen to Lorddave, because he is a rabid globularist and is intentionally trying to besmirch this society and its reputation. He does not speak for FE'ers. Instead of listening to jaded drones like him, you should engage in debate and discussion here. I'm not saying you'll come to see things our way; from experience I know this doesn't happen often. But if you take his word for it, then you'll never learn for yourself, and surely that is something worth doing.

It's funny how you tell him to engage in discussions around here, and yet you ignore his attempt to.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 08:21:35 AM »
A man's gotta eat friend. That's a lot of info to chew through, and I've got some roast chicken waiting for me. The chicken wins.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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PunyBanner

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 01:01:08 PM »
Please don't listen to Lorddave, because he is a rabid globularist and is intentionally trying to besmirch this society and its reputation. He does not speak for FE'ers. Instead of listening to jaded drones like him, you should engage in debate and discussion here. I'm not saying you'll come to see things our way; from experience I know this doesn't happen often. But if you take his word for it, then you'll never learn for yourself, and surely that is something worth doing.

I find it quite funny how there were no FETers posting here until Lorddave goaded you. As I said above I am willing to learn for myself, but I have no idea where to look for the informaion I need. Can you point me to some equations or explanations or peer reviewed/quantifiable evidence which supports the UA theory? I have been watching a few shows about dark energy (in RET) on TV and, while I don't pretend to understand all the information they gave, there was at least information I could look into further if I choose to do so. Can any FETer give me some similar information about dark energy in FET? It does not have to be a TV show, I understand the budget constraints the FES faces, but any information other than, "The world is flat and gravity doesn't exist so UA must do," woud be much appreciated.
I have also seen Lorddave contribute alot of valid points on other threads and have seen quite a few FETers make fun of his beliefs or give nonsense answers to to his points. I don't blame him for taking the piss occaisionally.

So once again I am attempting to "engage in debate and discussion here" so can someone debate and/or discuss with me? Maybe you when you finish your chicken, Lord Wilmore?
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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markjo

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 01:28:49 PM »
A man's gotta eat friend.

Lord Wilmore is a cannibal?  ???  :o
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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jackofhearts

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 02:20:31 PM »
A man's gotta eat friend.

Lord Wilmore is a cannibal?  ???  :o

That's shockingly not shocking whatsoever.

Trolling makes me angry.

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PunyBanner

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 09:17:20 PM »
Okay, I have been lurking round this site for over a day now (yes, I have alot of time on my hands and not much to spend it on, business is slow atm) waiting for someone to at least attempt to address my questions and there is still nothing. The only FETer willing to respond has been Lord Wilmore, who seems more interested in chicken than proving his beliefs. Can anyone please respond. This stuff seems pretty integral to the FET so, as one of the fundamentals of the belief, there should at least be attempts to explain it floating around the web; can someone please point me to it? Or can we just say this is a majpr hole in the FET and count it as a RET win?
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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ShnitzelKiller

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 01:16:35 AM »
Wow. They are really just ignoring this altogether. Lord Wilmore practically just admitted to having posted in the thread without even reading your original arguments. Flat Earthers just derail, ignore, or quote you and insert something ridiculous and say "fixed".

I too am very eager to see if any of you has a justification for the fact that this already vague universal force must only effect the Earth and not everything on it.

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Catchpa

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 06:02:16 AM »
The FAQ is outdated. It's plausible that half the information in it is no longer believed, and I created a thread about it some time ago. It was largely ignored by FE'ers.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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PunyBanner

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 06:28:47 AM »
The FAQ is outdated. It's plausible that half the information in it is no longer believed, and I created a thread about it some time ago. It was largely ignored by FE'ers.

Even if the FAQ is outdated (which it most likely is as what FETers believe seems to change almost daily as RETers poke holes in their claims), the UA theory cannot be. Assuming that the flat earth is not an infinite plane - as I understand it, an infinite plane would somehow have a gravitational pull (I don't actually understand that at all, not disagreeing with it, just don't understand it so I'll leave it alone) - but a finite plane, then the UA is needed to explain the effects we RETers attribute to gravity. As such it is a fundamental piece of the puzzle and cannot be removed. It would be like baking a cake without flour or some kind of flour substitute (if such a thing exists, I don't know becuse I don't bake cakes, I just eat them) and expecting it to come out looking, smelling and tasting the same. Assuming that there is no UA and the earth has a gravitational field would mean that the earth would, at some point, have pulled itself into a sphere. Assuming the UA does exist leads to the problems I outlined above.
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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jackofhearts

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 07:05:36 AM »
or quote you and insert something ridiculous and say "fixed".

We do that, too.  Lurk moar.   ;)

Trolling makes me angry.

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Catchpa

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2010, 07:57:58 AM »
The FAQ is outdated. It's plausible that half the information in it is no longer believed, and I created a thread about it some time ago. It was largely ignored by FE'ers.

Even if the FAQ is outdated (which it most likely is as what FETers believe seems to change almost daily as RETers poke holes in their claims), the UA theory cannot be. Assuming that the flat earth is not an infinite plane - as I understand it, an infinite plane would somehow have a gravitational pull (I don't actually understand that at all, not disagreeing with it, just don't understand it so I'll leave it alone) - but a finite plane, then the UA is needed to explain the effects we RETers attribute to gravity. As such it is a fundamental piece of the puzzle and cannot be removed. It would be like baking a cake without flour or some kind of flour substitute (if such a thing exists, I don't know becuse I don't bake cakes, I just eat them) and expecting it to come out looking, smelling and tasting the same. Assuming that there is no UA and the earth has a gravitational field would mean that the earth would, at some point, have pulled itself into a sphere. Assuming the UA does exist leads to the problems I outlined above.

Half the FE'ers don't even believe in UA anyway. http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=38959.0
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2010, 12:24:07 PM »
The thing is, whether they believe in it or not, the earth can't be flat. You can see my reasons a bit further up.

But now I get it. The flat earth people have been proven wrong over and over again. And each time this happens, they just ignore the post and go argue about another topic. And these are the people who plan to make a world revolution in science? They can't even fight the rational thinkers in their own territory: The Flat Earth Forums. How are they going to stand up to scientific scrutiny and peer review? This is ridiculous.

I admit I have made a big mistake: Believing I could show them that they are wrong. I didn't know how much they avoided evidence.

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jackofhearts

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 01:03:46 PM »
The thing is, whether they believe in it or not, the earth can't be flat. You can see my reasons a bit further up.

But now I get it. The flat earth people have been proven wrong over and over again. And each time this happens, they just ignore the post and go argue about another topic. And these are the people who plan to make a world revolution in science? They can't even fight the rational thinkers in their own territory: The Flat Earth Forums. How are they going to stand up to scientific scrutiny and peer review? This is ridiculous.

I admit I have made a big mistake: Believing I could show them that they are wrong. I didn't know how much they avoided evidence.

Yup, that pretty much sums up FE'ers.

Trolling makes me angry.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2010, 01:10:48 PM »
Believing I could show them that they are wrong.
Internet Superhero.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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jackofhearts

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 01:13:47 PM »
Believing I could show them that they are wrong.
Internet Superhero.

Stop with the low-content troll posts.

Trolling makes me angry.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2010, 01:14:20 PM »
Believing I could show them that they are wrong.
Internet Superhero.

Stop with the low-content troll posts.
After you.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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Sliver

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2010, 05:57:37 PM »
I didn't know how much they avoided evidence.
Now THIS, they have down to a science!

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jackofhearts

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2010, 06:05:25 PM »
Believing I could show them that they are wrong.
Internet Superhero.

Stop with the low-content troll posts.
After you.

When was the last time I trolled?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 04:02:20 AM by jackofhearts »

Trolling makes me angry.

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Misterkami

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2010, 03:49:07 AM »
Believing I could show them that they are wrong.
Internet Superhero.

Stop with the low-content troll posts.
After you.

When was the last time I trolleld?
LOL.. that last comment was a perfect trolling action..

Anyway, I agree with you guys, this is one of the better threads in terms of clarity and supported by strong arguments.
It's just a pity that especially these threads are ignored by most FET's, while an interesting debate could have been formed.
In the end that simply leads to us RET's chatting, which has a trolling effect on its own..
 
I haven't been on this forum for a long time (not since bendy light was disproved) but it seems now that FES has gone into a coma or chewing through an infinitely large amount of chicken..
Is there no serious FET attempt to look into the above mentioned arguments and provide an intelligent answer at all? 
~No Ordinary Moments~

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ShnitzelKiller

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2010, 07:02:59 PM »
Believing I could show them that they are wrong.
Internet Superhero.

There they go again... is ANYONE going to address the original poster?! This is infuriating but quite revealing.

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ShnitzelKiller

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Re: I signed up to ask this about UA, can someone please answer?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2010, 10:29:10 PM »
BUMP.