Universal Healthcare in Canada being reconsidered

So how does one explain denominations? Clearly if it isn't in the Bible then YHWH doesn't care that much about it.

Denominations emerge around those things which God apparently does not care much about or at least did not care enough to spell it out for us plainly. Most Christians will admit that it doesn't really matter which denomination you belong to. Even though they differ in their beliefs here and there, they are all still legit because they agree on the fundamentals.

Quote from: General Douchebag on June 19, 2010, 04:28:18 PM

So how does one explain denominations? Clearly if it isn't in the Bible then YHWH doesn't care that much about it.

Denominations emerge around those things which God apparently does not care much about or at least did not care enough to spell it out for us plainly. Most Christians will admit that it doesn't really matter which denomination you belong to. Even though they differ in their beliefs here and there, they are all still legit because they agree on the fundamentals.

And most Christian Denominations exist because the felt the Roman Catholic Church was a bunch of power hungry, greedy, sodomizing bastards.  Which they were.

Quote from: General Douchebag on June 19, 2010, 04:28:18 PM

So how does one explain denominations? Clearly if it isn't in the Bible then YHWH doesn't care that much about it.

Denominations emerge around those things which God apparently does not care much about or at least did not care enough to spell it out for us plainly. Most Christians will admit that it doesn't really matter which denomination you belong to. Even though they differ in their beliefs here and there, they are all still legit because they agree on the fundamentals.

Don't most believe that those not in there denomination will go to hell?

I see this most hard-core in born again christians and evangelicals.

Quote from: Canadark on June 22, 2010, 06:59:59 PM

Quote from: General Douchebag on June 19, 2010, 04:28:18 PM

So how does one explain denominations? Clearly if it isn't in the Bible then YHWH doesn't care that much about it.

Denominations emerge around those things which God apparently does not care much about or at least did not care enough to spell it out for us plainly. Most Christians will admit that it doesn't really matter which denomination you belong to. Even though they differ in their beliefs here and there, they are all still legit because they agree on the fundamentals.

Don't most believe that those not in there denomination will go to hell?

I see this most hard-core in born again christians and evangelicals.

Er, yeah. This.

The Catholics see the Protestants as heretics, and vice versa. The hard-line ones, at least.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 22, 2010, 07:26:49 PM

Quote from: Canadark on June 22, 2010, 06:59:59 PM

Quote from: General Douchebag on June 19, 2010, 04:28:18 PM

So how does one explain denominations? Clearly if it isn't in the Bible then YHWH doesn't care that much about it.

Denominations emerge around those things which God apparently does not care much about or at least did not care enough to spell it out for us plainly. Most Christians will admit that it doesn't really matter which denomination you belong to. Even though they differ in their beliefs here and there, they are all still legit because they agree on the fundamentals.

Don't most believe that those not in there denomination will go to hell?

I see this most hard-core in born again christians and evangelicals.

Er, yeah. This.

The Catholics see the Protestants as heretics, and vice versa. The hard-line ones, at least.

I was raised Baptist, and I don't ever remember being taught that the other denominations were going to hell for the slight differences in beliefs.  Now, maybe for some of the bigger differences, like Catholics praying to idols and saints. 

Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 22, 2010, 11:37:29 PM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 22, 2010, 07:26:49 PM

Quote from: Canadark on June 22, 2010, 06:59:59 PM

Quote from: General Douchebag on June 19, 2010, 04:28:18 PM

So how does one explain denominations? Clearly if it isn't in the Bible then YHWH doesn't care that much about it.

Denominations emerge around those things which God apparently does not care much about or at least did not care enough to spell it out for us plainly. Most Christians will admit that it doesn't really matter which denomination you belong to. Even though they differ in their beliefs here and there, they are all still legit because they agree on the fundamentals.

Don't most believe that those not in there denomination will go to hell?

I see this most hard-core in born again christians and evangelicals.

Er, yeah. This.

The Catholics see the Protestants as heretics, and vice versa. The hard-line ones, at least.

I was raised Baptist, and I don't ever remember being taught that the other denominations were going to hell for the slight differences in beliefs.  Now, maybe for some of the bigger differences, like Catholics praying to idols and saints. 

I was raised Catholic and I don't remember any idol worshipping. And praising Saints hardly worshipping false gods.

You guys didn't pray to statues of Mary?

You guys didn't pray to statues of Mary?

They do say the hail Mary.

You guys didn't pray to statues of Mary?

And don't forget the tabernacle, big load of idol worship there.

You guys didn't pray to statues of Mary?

No we didn't. And besides, praying to Mary isn't worshipping a false God.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 24, 2010, 08:13:04 AM

You guys didn't pray to statues of Mary?

No we didn't. And besides, praying to Mary isn't worshipping a false God.

So Mary created the Earth in 7 days? My, she was a busy woman wasn't she?

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 24, 2010, 08:53:24 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 24, 2010, 08:13:04 AM

You guys didn't pray to statues of Mary?

No we didn't. And besides, praying to Mary isn't worshipping a false God.

So Mary created the Earth in 7 days? My, she was a busy woman wasn't she?

How is telling Mary your worries raising her to God status? Some people feel they can relate to her better so they talk to her instead of God. I don't see the big deal. Mary is just a guidance counseler, if you may, not the principal.

But Mary is dead.  What good does it do to pray to her?

But Mary is dead.  What good does it do to pray to her?

I dunno, I don't pray to her. But i'm pretty sure it's more just about actually talking to someone about the issues in their life. If they can regonise them and think about them, and contemplate them, who cares if they are talking to a dead person. So people go to loved one's graves and talk to them. Whats the difference?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 24, 2010, 09:15:36 AM

But Mary is dead.  What good does it do to pray to her?

I dunno, I don't pray to her. But i'm pretty sure it's more just about actually talking to someone about the issues in their life. If they can regonise them and think about them, and contemplate them, who cares if they are talking to a dead person. So people go to loved one's graves and talk to them. Whats the difference?

I'm pretty sure people worship golden oxen because it's more about talking to a god that is applicable to them in their life. If they can recognize it and think about it and contemplate it, who cares if it's a "false" idol. So people worship all kinds of shit. What's the difference?

they are not worshiping Mary. they are asking her to talk to God for them.

In most Christian denominations, only God can hear your prayers?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 24, 2010, 09:15:36 AM

But Mary is dead.  What good does it do to pray to her?

I dunno, I don't pray to her. But i'm pretty sure it's more just about actually talking to someone about the issues in their life. If they can regonise them and think about them, and contemplate them, who cares if they are talking to a dead person. So people go to loved one's graves and talk to them. Whats the difference?

I don't think there's anything wrong with any of it.  I just know that according to the bible you're only supposed to pray to God... unless there's something in the bible that says it's ok to pray to Mary and the saints?  The Catholic version of Christianity always seemed so complicated compared to the Baptist version I grew up with. 

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 24, 2010, 09:18:44 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 24, 2010, 09:15:36 AM

But Mary is dead.  What good does it do to pray to her?

I dunno, I don't pray to her. But i'm pretty sure it's more just about actually talking to someone about the issues in their life. If they can regonise them and think about them, and contemplate them, who cares if they are talking to a dead person. So people go to loved one's graves and talk to them. Whats the difference?

I'm pretty sure people worship golden oxen because it's more about talking to a god that is applicable to them in their life. If they can recognize it and think about it and contemplate it, who cares if it's a "false" idol. So people worship all kinds of shit. What's the difference?

You keep missing the point that praying and worshipping are two different things.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 24, 2010, 09:18:44 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 24, 2010, 09:15:36 AM

But Mary is dead.  What good does it do to pray to her?

I dunno, I don't pray to her. But i'm pretty sure it's more just about actually talking to someone about the issues in their life. If they can regonise them and think about them, and contemplate them, who cares if they are talking to a dead person. So people go to loved one's graves and talk to them. Whats the difference?

I don't think there's anything wrong with any of it.  I just know that according to the bible you're only supposed to pray to God...

Would you mind providing a passage for me that says that?

Have you provided the passages that say you should pray to Mary and the saints? There are several passages that refer to praying to God.  Why would you assume that you should pray to anyone else?

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7)

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18) (for the saints, not to them)

I don't have time to look up more.. but I'd really like to read some passages about praying (worshiping) Mary or any of the saints.  Prayer is a form of worship.

Have you provided the passages that say you should pray to Mary and the saints? There are several passages that refer to praying to God.  Why would you assume that you should pray to anyone else?

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7)

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds
 of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18) (for the saints, not to them)

I don't have time to look up more.. but I'd really like to read some passages about praying (worshiping) Mary or any of the saints.  Prayer is a form of worship.

Alright. I'll try if I can find an actual computer. I'm on a phone right now so it is quite hard to copy and paste and go to other websites at any efficient rate.

Bah.. I've spent too much time reading wacko evangelical sites now.  (no offense to any wacko evangelicals)

I don't think there is a passage in the bible that specifically states that people shouldn't ask the saints for help with their prayers (or one that says you should).  There's one that says Jesus is the only mediator, but it is referring to Jesus dying for our sins, and not prayer. 

I think the biggest difference in our dogmas is that I was raised to believe that all Christians are saints, and Catholics seem to think that a saint has to be decided upon by the pope. I should've been praying to my grandpa for help all these years!

I imagine it matter what prayer is to you.  If you are praying to god for forgiveness, or what not ok.  But if you are praying for guidance or for self reflection I don't see the issue praying to Mary or Fred Flintstone, or whoever is of use.

Have you provided the passages that say you should pray to Mary and the saints? There are several passages that refer to praying to God.  Why would you assume that you should pray to anyone else?

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7)

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18) (for the saints, not to them)

I don't have time to look up more.. but I'd really like to read some passages about praying (worshiping) Mary or any of the saints.  Prayer is a form of worship.

How the actual translation differences for "for the saints" and "to them".  Unfortunately, I'm not a scholar of languages.  

However, that says nothing of not praying to them.  Why would you assume you can't?

Anyways its irrelevant.  In the cases where people pray to Mary, Saints etc it is more accurate to say they are praying *with* the saints not to them.

I think the issue is that those are humans who are dead and can't "hear" prayers.

I think the issue is that those are humans who are dead and can't "hear" prayers.

What's the big deal though? If it makes them happy, it doesn't hurt anyone, and God doesn't say you can't do it, why should it matter?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 25, 2010, 10:22:57 AM

I think the issue is that those are humans who are dead and can't "hear" prayers.

What's the big deal though? If it makes them happy, it doesn't hurt anyone, and God doesn't say you can't do it, why should it matter?

It seems, to me, a bit hypocritical. God is the only one who can actually do anything about their problems (i.e. answer their prayers) so praying to a dead human vessel who cannot do anything about their problems, is tantamount to praying to a false god in my opinion. Erecting statues to the Mary and praying to them is the same as praying to a golden cow. They're ascribing "godly" attributes (forgiveness, comfort, etc) to a human.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 25, 2010, 12:37:56 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 25, 2010, 10:22:57 AM

I think the issue is that those are humans who are dead and can't "hear" prayers.

What's the big deal though? If it makes them happy, it doesn't hurt anyone, and God doesn't say you can't do it, why should it matter?

It seems, to me, a bit hypocritical. God is the only one who can actually do anything about their problems (i.e. answer their prayers) so praying to a dead human vessel who cannot do anything about their problems, is tantamount to praying to a false god in my opinion. Erecting statues to the Mary and praying to them is the same as praying to a golden cow. They're ascribing "godly" attributes (forgiveness, comfort, etc) to a human.

Humans cannot forgive or comfort others? Besides, they aren' just a dead human vessel. They are in heaven and are Saints.

Quote from: Guessed on June 25, 2010, 01:51:30 PM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on June 25, 2010, 12:37:56 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 25, 2010, 10:22:57 AM

I think the issue is that those are humans who are dead and can't "hear" prayers.

What's the big deal though? If it makes them happy, it doesn't hurt anyone, and God doesn't say you can't do it, why should it matter?

It seems, to me, a bit hypocritical. God is the only one who can actually do anything about their problems (i.e. answer their prayers) so praying to a dead human vessel who cannot do anything about their problems, is tantamount to praying to a false god in my opinion. Erecting statues to the Mary and praying to them is the same as praying to a golden cow. They're ascribing "godly" attributes (forgiveness, comfort, etc) to a human.

Humans cannot forgive or comfort others? Besides, they aren' just a dead human vessel. They are in heaven and are Saints.

But if you're praying to a deity in heaven, then it should rightfully be god that you're praying to. Otherwise, the way I see it, you're saying that god's not the right man for that particular job, and by extension you're picking someone who you are more comfortable with to pray to. This is all well and good, but it implies that one does not have their entire faith in god. If god is perfect, there should be no need to pray to Mary and the saints. This leads me to two conclusions.

Either,

1) By praying to Mary and the saints, catholics acknowledge that god is not infallible and perfect

or

2) Catholics willingly pray to human spirits who used god's power to perform miracle (in the process elevating them to a deity status) therefore praying to false idols (after all, it was the power of god which made the miracles through human vessels, and not the humans themselves).

Either way, the notion of praying to anyone but god (and this practice being sanctioned by the Catholic church) is absurd. No?