Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.

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Parsifal

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 01:39:02 PM »
1. Wind resistance does not curve light.
2. What about someone in a windowless helicopter?

1. I didn't say it did.
2. What about them?
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2010, 01:40:10 PM »
??? Why has no one bothered to cite an analysis of what material airline windows are made of and their thickness or tolerance to pressure? Without any data to show what level of deformations would be caused by the pressures in an aircraft, this all seems pretty unfounded.

If you know what they're made of, Mr Smartypants, why didn't you?

Because I'm not the one making the claim that deformations in airplane windows cause apparent curvature on the horizon.

Yes, so by default if you take the sceptical stance to that claim you are making the counterclaim that this deformation does not happen.

I never said that I claimed such deformations did not happen, and I should not be required to prove a negative in any case.

While I generally agree with you, the phrase about not having to prove a negative crops up way too often on this forum as an excuse on all sides. It's meaningless, as ANYTHING can be turned from a "negative" to a "positive" and vice versa. For example, proving a window does not deform under pressure is the negative version: however, proving a window remains straight under pressure is the positive, and proving it does not remain straight (i.e. deforms) becomes the negative. The "proving a negative" clause should be put in the same trash bin as Burden Of Proof.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2010, 01:58:46 PM »
Right, assuming your window is 12.5 inch by 9 inch, and a very pessimistic quarter inch thick.

With 7 psi acting, and a Youngs modulus of 9*10^6 lbf/in^2 (bog standard borosilicate glass) you'll get a deflection in the middle of your plate of....

0.025 inches.

0.6mm

Essentially f*ck all.

Now times that by the 80 or so windows and tell me how far the fuselage bows out....

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2010, 02:47:09 PM »
1. Wind resistance does not curve light.
2. What about someone in a windowless helicopter?

1. I didn't say it did.
2. What about them?
1. A curved body does not create the perception of a negative curve for other objects, ie earth. If you claim it does, prove it.
2.

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General Disarray

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2010, 02:47:17 PM »
Right, assuming your window is 12.5 inch by 9 inch, and a very pessimistic quarter inch thick.

With 7 psi acting, and a Youngs modulus of 9*10^6 lbf/in^2 (bog standard borosilicate glass) you'll get a deflection in the middle of your plate of....

0.025 inches.

0.6mm

Essentially f*ck all.

Now times that by the 80 or so windows and tell me how far the fuselage bows out....

Ummm, 0.6mm in each window? The fuselage does not bow out at all, just the windows.
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markjo

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 03:13:50 PM »
Now times that by the 80 or so windows and tell me how far the fuselage bows out....
Why would the windows make the fuselage bow out?  ???
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Crustinator

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2010, 04:16:11 PM »
I swear on all that is holy, I have never seen a curvature in all my flight hours.

This is strange, since according to Pongo you can see a curvature.

A round-earth believer, or shape denier as I will call them from here on out, posts a pic from high altitude or makes the statement that in a plane you can see the curvature of the earth.  And indeed, the pictures of the shape deniers do look compelling.

See?

So which is it? No curve or optical illusion curve?

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vhu9644

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2010, 06:14:04 PM »
Here is something that everyone has seen many times.  A round-earth believer, or shape denier as I will call them from here on out, posts a pic from high altitude or makes the statement that in a plane you can see the curvature of the earth.  And indeed, the pictures of the shape deniers do look compelling.  However, it's all an optical illusion.

At ground level, if you look out the window of a plane every round-earth believer and every shape denier can agree that the earth looks flat.  However, at extreme altitudes, it appears that there is a curvature.  This is well documented and understood.  Now, a shape denier will point to this and ignorantly proclaim, "Ah hah!  We've got you!  Another win for RET!!!"  Seems like a solid claim on the surface, lets look deeper.

The traditional response to this is that they are seeing the outline of the sun's spotlight, and at very very high altitudes or close to dawn/dusk this is true.  However, some pictures are taken at noon, or at the center of the spotlight at altitudes that shouldn't show curvature.  So what's going on?

The real reason that the earth looks curved is due to air pressure.  In order to keep passengers and personnel comfortable, and alive, a plain must maintain a certain atmospheric pressure.  Once a plain gets so high, the pressure outside the fuselage is lower than it is on the inside.  This causes the windows to bow outwards and give objects in the distance a curved look.  As the horizon is the only thing viewable that spans the length of a window, and at a sufficiently far distance, it appears to be curved. 

This optical illusion has fooled many people the world over, but it will no longer deceive you!  The next time you are on an airliner and a kid points out the window claiming to see the curvature of the earth, you can educate him or her on what is really going on and hopefully open their eyes to truth of the shape of this flat earth.

the window acting as lense may be true, but how about from space, where you see (if earth was flat) the whole earth, and you see it as a shpere

and also the horizon is a line, not a point
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Parsifal

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2010, 11:01:08 PM »
1. A curved body does not create the perception of a negative curve for other objects, ie earth. If you claim it does, prove it.
2.

1. The apparent curvature of the horizon in your image is sufficient evidence.
2. The edge of the helicopter also appears curved. Is the helicopter round?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2010, 11:57:51 PM »
Right, assuming your window is 12.5 inch by 9 inch, and a very pessimistic quarter inch thick.

With 7 psi acting, and a Youngs modulus of 9*10^6 lbf/in^2 (bog standard borosilicate glass) you'll get a deflection in the middle of your plate of....

0.025 inches.

0.6mm

Essentially f*ck all.

Now times that by the 80 or so windows and tell me how far the fuselage bows out....

Em, why? You think the pressure on each window causes the fuselage to expand? I thought you knew a thing or two about aircraft. Clearly not.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2010, 12:48:45 AM »
This causes the windows to bow and give objects in the distance a curved look.

Wouldn't that cause the horizon to slope up at the edges instead of down?  For further experimentation: look at your reflection on either side of that cereal spoon, Mr. Wizard.  The lens you're pretending it would form would only curve the edges down if the horizon were above the vanishing point when viewed straight out.  Even if I try to help you and we presume that's the case and the plane is tilted, it still doesn't account for the people looking from the other side who would view just the opposite curvature.  Good day, sir.

Now times that by the 80 or so windows and tell me how far the fuselage bows out....

Multiplying the windows affected doesn't change anything if the pressure is constant.  If we DO account for the slight change in pressure, there's actually less force acting over each area, as the total volume has increased.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2010, 12:59:25 AM »
1. A curved body does not create the perception of a negative curve for other objects, ie earth. If you claim it does, prove it.
2.

1. The apparent curvature of the horizon in your image is sufficient evidence.
2. The edge of the helicopter also appears curved. Is the helicopter round?

Yes. Do you think it's a flying cuboid?

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Pongo

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2010, 01:28:27 AM »
This causes the windows to bow and give objects in the distance a curved look.
Wouldn't that cause the horizon to slope up at the edges instead of down?  For further experimentation: look at your reflection on either side of that cereal spoon, Mr. Wizard.  The lens you're pretending it would form would only curve the edges down if the horizon were above the vanishing point when viewed straight out.  Even if I try to help you and we presume that's the case and the plane is tilted, it still doesn't account for the people looking from the other side who would view just the opposite curvature.  Good day, sir.

Are you seriously making this argument?  I'm not even sure where to begin on how wrong you are... I guess I should start with the easiest flaw.  A spoon is opaque and reflective, a window is translucent.



What the hell is this a picture of?  An ice wall guard?

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2010, 02:39:56 AM »
I figured the reflection of spoons would be a more readily available demonstration of different kinds of visual warping due to light reflecting off (or traveling through) bent materials.

Now that I think about it: what kind of lensing is this even supposed to be?  Unless the thickness of the window somehow seriously changes between the middle and edges, you're not going to get much of a warped image at all.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2010, 02:57:11 AM »
Remember that picture I showed you from a balloon?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39375.0

Ladies and gentlemen, please direct your attention to the FE fail above.

Trolling makes me angry.

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Crustinator

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2010, 06:27:15 AM »
2. The edge of the helicopter also appears curved. Is the helicopter round?

The edge of the helicopter is not the earth. You need to take a few days off to recover your troll powas.

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trig

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2010, 08:12:29 AM »
I figured the reflection of spoons would be a more readily available demonstration of different kinds of visual warping due to light reflecting off (or traveling through) bent materials.

Now that I think about it: what kind of lensing is this even supposed to be?  Unless the thickness of the window somehow seriously changes between the middle and edges, you're not going to get much of a warped image at all.
This is exactly the point. Lenses have to have varying thickness to have any effect on images that pass through them. To have the effect of making the horizon seem curved (and always curved in the same direction), the windows should have a very special combination of thick and thin places, and very special shear characteristics so that it would change exactly as needed to create this "illusion" only when the plane is at high altitudes.

Nobody with even a passing knowledge of optics would even consider this hypothesis seriously. Even if someone decided to give this garbage some possibility of being true, he would look at a typical airplane window for a couple of minutes and see how they are pretty much flat and with constant thickness.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2010, 07:25:57 PM »
Remember that picture I showed you from a balloon?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39375.0

Ladies and gentlemen, please direct your attention to the FE fail above.

That might be sufficient evidence if the photo had not clearly been digitally altered.

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Tech

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2010, 08:15:52 PM »
Remember that picture I showed you from a balloon?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39375.0

Ladies and gentlemen, please direct your attention to the FE fail above.

That is sufficient evidence that the FEH is false until I can prove that it was digitally altered, because it is in no way "clearly digitally altered."

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The Question1

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2010, 08:17:36 PM »
Remember that picture I showed you from a balloon?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39375.0

Ladies and gentlemen, please direct your attention to the FE fail above.

That might be sufficient evidence if the photo had not clearly been digitally altered.
Explain how it was "Clearly" digitally altered.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2010, 08:37:22 PM »
Remember that picture I showed you from a balloon?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=39375.0

Ladies and gentlemen, please direct your attention to the FE fail above.

That might be sufficient evidence if the photo had not clearly been digitally altered.
Explain how it was "Clearly" digitally altered.

Well it's quite simple really; if it hadn't been altered it would show that the earth is flat.

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General Disarray

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2010, 09:42:16 PM »
ITT (and every other created by Pongo): He poorly understands scientific principles, makes broad and incorrect assumptions, and ignores any posts which prove him wrong.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

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Tech

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2010, 02:53:34 AM »
ITT (and every other created by Pongo): He poorly understands scientific principles, makes broad and incorrect assumptions, and ignores any posts which prove him wrong.

Yea, but he does it on purpose, he's trolling.

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Pongo

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2010, 03:02:25 AM »
ITT (and every other created by Pongo): He poorly understands scientific principles, makes broad and incorrect assumptions, and ignores any posts which prove him wrong.

Yea, but he does it on purpose, he's trolling.

I'm not trolling.  In general, I ignore posts that have been answered over and over again by other flat earthers.  I almost always ignore posts that I have already answered, especially if I've answered them in the same thread. 

Ignoring asinine questions does not mean I am trolling.

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Tech

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2010, 03:07:03 AM »
ITT (and every other created by Pongo): He poorly understands scientific principles, makes broad and incorrect assumptions, and ignores any posts which prove him wrong.

Yea, but he does it on purpose, he's trolling.

I'm not trolling.  In general, I ignore posts that have been answered over and over again by other flat earthers.  I almost always ignore posts that I have already answered, especially if I've answered them in the same thread. 

Ignoring asinine questions does not mean I am trolling.

You can't prove you aren't trolling...

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Pongo

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2010, 03:15:52 AM »
You have a preconceived notion that I am trolling.  If I say I'm not trolling, then you say I'm just trolling and that's what a troll would say.  If I say I am trolling then you conciser your accusations vindicated.

It's not I that's can't prove I'm not trolling, it's you that cannot accept I'm not trolling.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2010, 07:16:26 AM »
You have a preconceived notion that I am trolling.  If I say I'm not trolling, then you say I'm just trolling and that's what a troll would say.  If I say I am trolling then you conciser your accusations vindicated.

It's not I that's can't prove I'm not trolling, it's you that cannot accept I'm not trolling.

If you'd stop making 'thickly sarcastic remarks', then maybe people would take you more seriously.

The problem is, nobody can tell the difference between your sacrcastic remarks and your real thoughts and opinions. 

Trolling makes me angry.

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Tech

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2010, 08:13:50 PM »
You have a preconceived notion that I am trolling.  If I say I'm not trolling, then you say I'm just trolling and that's what a troll would say.  If I say I am trolling then you conciser your accusations vindicated.

It's not I that's can't prove I'm not trolling, it's you that cannot accept I'm not trolling.
That reminds me of the beliefs of Flat Earthers.

Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2010, 10:11:32 PM »
I am a Round-Earth Believer. I have read your posts, and the "curved window" claim is very convincing. But, if you were to take this argument to the extremes, let's say space, pictures and videos taken specifically show that (A) the Earth is most definitely globe-shaped, and (B) that it isn't flat with rough pillar bottoms.

Take this picture as an example:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:hAaAtwkVKvYmUM:http://spiritualoasis.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/earth-from-space-western.jpg

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Pongo

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Re: Why The Earth Appears Curved at a High Altitude.
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2010, 01:50:51 AM »
I am a Round-Earth Believer. I have read your posts, and the "curved window" claim is very convincing. But, if you were to take this argument to the extremes, let's say space, pictures and videos taken specifically show that (A) the Earth is most definitely globe-shaped, and (B) that it isn't flat with rough pillar bottoms.

Take this picture as an example:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:hAaAtwkVKvYmUM:http://spiritualoasis.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/earth-from-space-western.jpg

It is widely accepted among the more prestigious members of these fora that pictures of the ilk that you have cited are nothing more than master forgeries.