Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel

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Lorddave

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2010, 12:36:56 PM »
...having them all flood into Palestine and piss Palestine off?

How, exactly, did the governments convince Palestine to give up the land for Israel in the first place?
Why exactly would a piece of land be pissed or has to be convinced?

When I say Palestine, I mean the government and people of the nation.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2010, 04:43:16 PM »
...having them all flood into Palestine and piss Palestine off?

How, exactly, did the governments convince Palestine to give up the land for Israel in the first place?
Why exactly would a piece of land be pissed or has to be convinced?

When I say Palestine, I mean the government and people of the nation.
ORLY? What nation was that government of?

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2010, 05:10:21 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2010, 05:13:50 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2010, 06:10:39 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2010, 06:11:19 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
Cool story bro. I remember Israel being the same.

Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2010, 06:34:22 PM »
So how about that Helen Thomas?

She is quite the old braud.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2010, 06:45:11 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
Cool story bro. I remember Israel being the same.

I also remember the Druids, Mayans, and countless other cultures existing.
Wanna give them their land back too?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2010, 06:48:26 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
Cool story bro. I remember Israel being the same.

I also remember the Druids, Mayans, and countless other cultures existing.
Wanna give them their land back too?
Well, following your stance, it only seems fair. I suggest all the descendants of the European settlers should leave the Americas and Australia. But, then again, who will accept them?

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2010, 07:37:37 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
Cool story bro. I remember Israel being the same.

I also remember the Druids, Mayans, and countless other cultures existing.
Wanna give them their land back too?
Well, following your stance, it only seems fair. I suggest all the descendants of the European settlers should leave the Americas and Australia. But, then again, who will accept them?

My stance?
My stance is whoever owns it now keeps it.
The question is: who owns what?

And I was wondering how Israel was formed in the first place.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2010, 07:43:25 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
Cool story bro. I remember Israel being the same.

I also remember the Druids, Mayans, and countless other cultures existing.
Wanna give them their land back too?
Well, following your stance, it only seems fair. I suggest all the descendants of the European settlers should leave the Americas and Australia. But, then again, who will accept them?

My stance?
My stance is whoever owns it now keeps it.
The question is: who owns what?

And I was wondering how Israel was formed in the first place.
What does that have to do with anything?

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2010, 07:57:24 PM »
The one that no longer exists.
When did it exist?

Prior to Israel being formed I think.
I'm not entirely sure on the time-line.  All I know is that at one point, Palestine was a nation, people, culture, ect...
Cool story bro. I remember Israel being the same.

I also remember the Druids, Mayans, and countless other cultures existing.
Wanna give them their land back too?
Well, following your stance, it only seems fair. I suggest all the descendants of the European settlers should leave the Americas and Australia. But, then again, who will accept them?

My stance?
My stance is whoever owns it now keeps it.
The question is: who owns what?

And I was wondering how Israel was formed in the first place.
What does that have to do with anything?

I guess you missed the discussion between me and Lord Wilmore about the origins of Israel.  I asked a question based on what he said, then you went off on "what is Palestine". 
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2010, 07:58:05 PM »
No, I did not miss it. But, what does have to do with a country enforcing an embargo?

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2010, 08:00:56 PM »
No, I did not miss it. But, what does have to do with a country enforcing an embargo?

To understand WHY there is a great deal of hostility between Israel and the rest of the Arab World.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2010, 08:05:27 PM »
No, I did not miss it. But, what does have to do with a country enforcing an embargo?

To understand WHY there is a great deal of hostility between Israel and the rest of the Arab World.

Oh, and why is that?

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2010, 08:08:40 PM »
No, I did not miss it. But, what does have to do with a country enforcing an embargo?

To understand WHY there is a great deal of hostility between Israel and the rest of the Arab World.

Oh, and why is that?
I'm not sure yet.  I'm waiting for Lord Wilmore to respond.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2010, 05:18:58 AM »
Basically, there was no Palestinian government. Palestine had been part of the Ottoman Empire, and when the British and French carved it up between them after WW1, the Brits got Palestine. However, after significant but relatively minor (in comparison with what was to come) Jewish immigration to the mandate, agitation began as Arabs and Jews clashed. Esssentially, Jewish settlers bought land pretty much fair and square, and were highly successful in settling what had once been desertified and deserted areas of Palestine. In itself this sounds reasonable, but the Arabs were not fools, and knew what large Jewish settlement would eventually lead to (namely a Jewish state in the mandate).


As a result, trouble started, and the British acted to prevent Jewish immigration to Palestine (despite officially supporting the creation of a Jewish homeland). Initially, Jewish groups banded into what were essentially self-defence groups, with the goal of protecting themselves given that the British did not (again, difficult situation). However, soon you had active Zionist groups which took a much more aggressive and violent approach, and who attacked the British in order to get them out of Palestine. Incidents like the bombing of the King David Hotel mean there is a touch of irony about some of Israel's pronouncements on terrorism.


In any event, after a long, hard war of privation and sacrifice, the British were not really interested in being caught between the Jews and Arabs, trying to keep the two apart. The UN was brought in, and essentially a commission proposed partitioning the mandate. The rights and wrongs of the proposed partition are a subject of huge debate, but basically the Jews accepted the proposal, and the Arabs rejected it. When the state of Israel was declared, the Arab nations (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebannon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.) declared war.


The end result was that Israel 'won' the war, not only holding on to the territory allocated to them under the U.N. partition, but greatly increasing the new state's territory. This was largely due to the Arab armies lacking unity, discipline, and their long supply lines. These were relatively new armies, and they just weren't up to the task. Additionally, bloodthirsty Arab rhetoric meant that the Jews felt they were fighting for their lives. Many were survivors of the Nazi occupation, so they constituted a tough and motivated military force.


Probably the most controversial aspect of the war is the idea that Palestinian Arabs were 'expelled'. As with most things in this conflict, the waters are muddy and it is difficult to say anything with certainty. It seems clear that at least some substantial Palestinian 'emigration' took place before the war. These were people who wanted to avoid being caught up in the fighting, but who (like most of the world) assumed that an Arab victory was inevitable and that they would soo return to their homes. However, the single largest factor seems to be the panic and fear created by the massacres committed by the most militant Zionist elements. Although the numbers killed were relatively small, they had a profound effect, as rumour and panic led to many Palestinians fleeing out of fear. The Arabs also comitted some massacres, but as they failed to capture many Jewish settlements or positions, the scope for atrocity on their part was limited. In any event, Arab soldiers proved to be far less bloodthirsty than the rhetoric of their leaders.


That's a bite-sized version of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. In the modern context, the 6-Day war is probably just as significant. It's all very complex, and the rights and wrongs are not always clear.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Lorddave

  • 18145
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2010, 04:47:29 PM »
So basically...

Jews and Arabs don't get along.
Jews kick ass against the whole Arab world.
Resentment all around.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2010, 11:00:28 AM »
As long as you keep in mind that they do so with huge subsidies from a first world that's still embarrassed about Hitler and is terrified of being called anti-semitic, and that they abuse this ass-kickability horribly, you've got quite a good summary of the whole affair there.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2010, 12:28:38 PM »
In my opinion, unjustified whining about anti-semitism is one of the things that does great damage to Israel's reputation and perception. Undoubtedly it exists, and clearly motivates a considerable number of pro-Palestinian supporters, but it's a card that is played in situations that simply do not merit the label. Just as there are people who like to disguise their antisemitism via the Palestinian cause, there are lots of Jewish extremists who like to stifle genuine and deserved criticism of Israel by labelling it antisemitic.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Guessed

  • 5379
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2010, 12:40:51 PM »
In my opinion, unjustified whining about anti-semitism is one of the things that does great damage to Israel's reputation and perception. Undoubtedly it exists, and clearly motivates a considerable number of pro-Palestinian supporters, but it's a card that is played in situations that simply do not merit the label. Just as there are people who like to disguise their antisemitism via the Palestinian cause, there are lots of Jewish extremists who like to stifle genuine and deserved criticism of Israel by labelling it antisemitic.

Though we may differ somewhat in our views on this subject, we agree on this much. It is also worth while to note that many people often throw anti-zionism in with antisemitism.
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