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How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers

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toothyp1cks

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How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« on: May 29, 2010, 01:14:59 AM »
Here in Australia we have handouts to the unemployed like most countries. And like most countries there are people who just live on these handouts.
I can fix that.

Unless you are properly disabled and can't work because of it this happens.
1. You become unemployed.
2. Handouts for 6 months.
3. Congratulations, welcome to the army.

It's simple really. You get 6 months to find a job and then you get conscripted. You can leave at any time IF you have a job lined up. To solve people waiting 6 months, conscription, get job, leave job a day later, repeat indefinately etc. you have 3 chances. After that you are immediately re-conscripted. It would be the real army. The conscripted would enter as normal soldiers.
For those who usually couldn't enter because of criminal records etc. they are put in the penal battalions.
For those too fat/weak etc. they get put into a special fitness program until they are ready for entry.
For those who have conditions preventing them from combat roles they are given paper-pushing jobs.
You would be paid an average wage for your rank.
There would be no limitations on ranks achievable etc.
In effect: work or fight. No middle-ground (except old people).
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When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.
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The Terror

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 05:09:14 AM »
What's Australia going to do with such a large standing army? Invade New Zealand?
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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 06:10:47 AM »
Simply put, these people are not really soldier material.
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Crustinator

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 06:11:45 AM »
if you want people to shoot other people in the head then you have to make them want to shoot other people in the head
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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2010, 08:53:53 AM »
Peacetime drafts are pretty cool, I guess.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2010, 09:09:58 AM »
So instead of paying a handout you pay them a regular salary plus all the costs associated with equipping them, the added costs of more numbers of officers to control them and the extra infrastructure to house and support them?

As The Terror said, what do you plan to do with such a large standing army eating up resources?
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Benocrates

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2010, 09:47:30 AM »
I agree with all the stated reasons why your idea is absurd. However, also consider the connection of the corporate run military-industrial complex and unemployment. Consider vulnerable communities in the US where the employment is effectively in the hands of a small amount of powerful corporations. If your plan came into effect, what would prevent the trade of human lives between the state and corporations? Do you see my point?

Ultimately, what you really want is a programme of slave labour.
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Quote from: Parsifal on July 26, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
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theonlydann

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2010, 10:19:34 AM »
Not to mention, now you have a large number of homeless who refuse to join the army or accept public assistance, leading to increases in poverty, which leads to an increase in crime.
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SupahLovah

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 10:59:50 AM »
Quote from: theonlydann on May 29, 2010, 10:19:34 AM
Not to mention, now you have a large number of homeless who refuse to join the army or accept public assistance, leading to increases in poverty, which leads to an increase in crime.
Increase in crime leads to a use for the army. WAR ON CRIME!
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parsec

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2010, 11:19:57 AM »
One can view poverty as an externality (I have not read the whole article, nor do I necessarily adhere to any of its conclusions. I simply wanted to point out that economists have considered this option). I believe it was Utilitarians who advocated helping the poor as a way to internalize this externality and increase our own "well-being".
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2010, 01:37:38 PM »
Quote from: SupahLovah on May 29, 2010, 10:59:50 AM
Quote from: theonlydann on May 29, 2010, 10:19:34 AM
Not to mention, now you have a large number of homeless who refuse to join the army or accept public assistance, leading to increases in poverty, which leads to an increase in crime.
Increase in crime leads to a use for the army. WAR ON CRIME!

Quote from: Admiral Adama
There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.
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toothyp1cks

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM »
Alright then. Maybe the army was a bad idea. What about assigning them to building roads or something? They don't get payed but they do get food and a barracks to live in if they don't have a house.
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When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.
?

Crustinator

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 04:13:06 AM »
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM
Alright then. Maybe the army was a bad idea. What about assigning them to building roads or something? They don't get payed but they do get food and a barracks to live in if they don't have a house.

Depends how badly you want to turn your doleys into rock breaking prisoners.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 04:47:11 AM »
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM
Alright then. Maybe the army was a bad idea. What about assigning them to building roads or something? They don't get payed but they do get food and a barracks to live in if they don't have a house.

What good does that do? Now you've created a slave underclass who can't get ahead any more because they're unpaid and fully dependant on the state and their 'job'

Why not create something like a mandatory education course which could be vocational for all people who want to claim their dole money. The course would only be 2 or 3 days a week but it could give them the training and skills necessary to put themselves back into work and out of the welfare system, after all most people on the dole do want to work.
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toothyp1cks

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 06:14:20 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 31, 2010, 04:47:11 AM
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM
Alright then. Maybe the army was a bad idea. What about assigning them to building roads or something? They don't get payed but they do get food and a barracks to live in if they don't have a house.

What good does that do? Now you've created a slave underclass who can't get ahead any more because they're unpaid and fully dependant on the state and their 'job'

True. Alright then. Pay them an amount they can live on, but only barely.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 31, 2010, 04:47:11 AM
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM
Why not create something like a mandatory education course which could be vocational for all people who want to claim their dole money. The course would only be 2 or 3 days a week but it could give them the training and skills necessary to put themselves back into work and out of the welfare system, after all most people on the dole do want to work.

Good idea. For the first 6 months you attend these courses with no work. After those 6 months you work for your dole money in the government and attend these courses on the weekend (probably not both days).

The problem is: we need a system that you can't escape from if you don't want to work but also doesn't punish those who are unlucky.
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When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.
*

Lord Wilmore

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 06:41:43 AM »
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 06:14:20 AM
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 31, 2010, 04:47:11 AM
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM
Alright then. Maybe the army was a bad idea. What about assigning them to building roads or something? They don't get payed but they do get food and a barracks to live in if they don't have a house.

What good does that do? Now you've created a slave underclass who can't get ahead any more because they're unpaid and fully dependant on the state and their 'job'

True. Alright then. Pay them an amount they can live on, but only barely.


And are these barely paid workers going to work on government projects, which would otherwise be contracted to construction companies who have to pay proper wages? I think you just undercut the sector and put a lot of people out of work.
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"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord
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Crustinator

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 08:32:59 AM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on May 31, 2010, 06:41:43 AM
And are these barely paid workers going to work on government projects, which would otherwise be contracted to construction companies who have to pay proper wages? I think you just undercut the sector and put a lot of people out of work.

They'll be back in work soon enough. Work-shy little monkeys.
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toothyp1cks

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2010, 07:19:47 AM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on May 31, 2010, 06:41:43 AM
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 06:14:20 AM
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 31, 2010, 04:47:11 AM
Quote from: toothyp1cks on May 31, 2010, 12:04:58 AM
Alright then. Maybe the army was a bad idea. What about assigning them to building roads or something? They don't get payed but they do get food and a barracks to live in if they don't have a house.

What good does that do? Now you've created a slave underclass who can't get ahead any more because they're unpaid and fully dependant on the state and their 'job'

True. Alright then. Pay them an amount they can live on, but only barely.


And are these barely paid workers going to work on government projects, which would otherwise be contracted to construction companies who have to pay proper wages? I think you just undercut the sector and put a lot of people out of work.

I doubt the supply of government workers is going to meet the demand for projects. And if it does then make them pick up rubbish or something menial but hard.
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When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.
?

Mr Pseudonym

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 07:29:55 AM »
Sounds an awful lot like work for the dole to me.  A program already running in Australia.
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Quote from: hallsofvallhalla on July 07, 2010, 01:06:43 PM
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.
?

Thermal Detonator

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 08:01:23 AM »
The problem with this scheme is that there's a massive loophole in it. Say I'm unemployed and on benefits. It's time to join the army. Wait! I'm starting my own business washing cars. You can't put me in the army now, because I'm working. Never mind my business will fail three weeks later and I'll be back on benefits, technically it's a job.
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toothyp1cks

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2010, 01:04:56 AM »
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on June 01, 2010, 08:01:23 AM
The problem with this scheme is that there's a massive loophole in it. Say I'm unemployed and on benefits. It's time to join the army. Wait! I'm starting my own business washing cars. You can't put me in the army now, because I'm working. Never mind my business will fail three weeks later and I'll be back on benefits, technically it's a job.

To solve people waiting 6 months, conscription, get job, leave job a day later, repeat indefinately etc. you have 3 chances. After that you are immediately re-conscripted.
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When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.
*

Lord Wilmore

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2010, 07:02:41 AM »
Quote from: toothyp1cks on June 02, 2010, 01:04:56 AM
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on June 01, 2010, 08:01:23 AM
The problem with this scheme is that there's a massive loophole in it. Say I'm unemployed and on benefits. It's time to join the army. Wait! I'm starting my own business washing cars. You can't put me in the army now, because I'm working. Never mind my business will fail three weeks later and I'll be back on benefits, technically it's a job.

To solve people waiting 6 months, conscription, get job, leave job a day later, repeat indefinately etc. you have 3 chances. After that you are immediately re-conscripted.


Legal minefield. What if I simply have bad luck with work?
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"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord
?

Mrs. Peach

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Re: How To Fix Dole/Doll Bludgers
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2010, 07:14:07 AM »
The US had a scheme back in the 1930s, the Civilian Conservation Corps.  It was run by Army officers I think.  Probably couldn't be done today without labor union consent.  Anyway, they built a lot of the national and state parks and it was considered a success.
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