A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm

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Crustinator

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2010, 04:38:22 PM »
I don't hold the FE map is true.

But there must be some sort of map that you believe is an accurate representation of the world.

A supermarket is out of apples.  How is zetetiscm going to figure out why they are out of apples better than the scientific method? 

The zetetic method will look at the absence of apples and conclude that this is evidence for the absence of pineapples. The zetetic method would suggest that it is impossible to count something which does not exist anyway. Anyone who suggests that there is an absence of apples is clearly part of a huge global conspiracy. The zetetic method would then order a truck full of pineapples.

Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #121 on: June 05, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »
FLAT EARTH IS A HYPOTHESIS YOU'RE ALL BIASED BY.

You're all a victim of your own definition of hypothesis.

All of your "testing" (as well as your ridiculous pontification on any number of things) is done to prove your pre-conceived notion that the Earth is flat.

It makes me feel like I'm going slightly insane when you guys seriously insist that you are without bias. EVERYONE IS BIASED.

As I've already said, the Scientific Method admits that bias is unavoidable and in doing so insists on checks and balance to eliminate influence from bias.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #122 on: June 05, 2010, 06:11:25 PM »
Zeteticsm can't check for one answer at a time because that would be bias.  Only the scientific method can. 

I'm sorry to make what's essentially a low-content post, but wut?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #123 on: June 05, 2010, 07:07:24 PM »
Zeteticsm can't check for one answer at a time because that would be bias.  Only the scientific method can. 

I'm sorry to make what's essentially a low-content post, but wut?

What he means is, how do you know one reason is correct over another unless you test both reasons?
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2010, 07:11:36 PM »
Zeteticsm can't check for one answer at a time because that would be bias.  Only the scientific method can. 

I'm sorry to make what's essentially a low-content post, but wut?

What he means is, how do you know one reason is correct over another unless you test both reasons?

Why do you presume that if presented with multiple possibilities, a zeteticist wouldn't test them all?  My point is that for this question, testing itself is meaningless.  It's not a question for which testing is the least bit necessary if you have the testimony of those involved (unless you for some reason mistrust that testimony, but nothing about such a circumstance has been presented as part of the question).
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James

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #125 on: June 05, 2010, 08:11:39 PM »

Theoretic (globular) Method:
Invented Hypothesis (made up by scientist) -> Testing to Corroborate Hypothesis -> Conclusion (modified version of original hypothesis to fit evidence)

Zetetic Method:
Zetetic Meditations reveal either
The "immediate and demonstrable causes" of the phenomena in question (i.e., no a priori theorising) - no further investigation
OR
a set of "manifest and undeniable facts" of the matter, in which case:

Facts derived from ZM -> stringent logical analysis ("what is naturally and fairly deducible therefrom").

More info available at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za04.htm

Theoretic method is the process of attempting to bolster a preconceived hypothesis, with selective attention to evidence which supports the case (this is how globularism came about).

Zetetic method provides direct access to the actual truth, through the dual procedure: Zetetic Meditation followed by Logical Analysis.
 (This is how the true shape of the Earth was discovered).

The difference in method is important!

NB: The Zetetic Process, in full, is a two-fold investigative method. Unresolved classes of facts revealed by Zetetic Meditations are subjected to the second part of the proecdure, logical analysis.
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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2010, 08:50:59 PM »

Theoretic (globular) Method:
Invented Hypothesis (made up by scientist) -> Testing to Corroborate Hypothesis -> Conclusion (modified version of original hypothesis to fit evidence)
This is not what scientists do. If you are going to attack a whole group of people you need to provide evidence.  Other wise it's just "Sokarul James, I think you will find that you are the only one who believes that you have "disproven [anyone's] entire belief" anything in less than 30 minuteswithout even posting one sentence of evidence.
Quote
Zetetic Method:
Zetetic Meditations reveal either
The "immediate and demonstrable causes" of the phenomena in question (i.e., no a priori theorising) - no further investigation
OR
a set of "manifest and undeniable facts" of the matter, in which case:

Facts derived from ZM -> stringent logical analysis ("what is naturally and fairly deducible therefrom").
Translation, Guessing


Quote
Theoretic method is the process of attempting to bolster a preconceived hypothesis, with selective attention to evidence which supports the case (this is how globularism came about).
Once again no evidence present.  Scientists don't always have successful experiments.  
Quote
Zetetic method provides direct access to the actual truth, through the dual procedure: Zetetic Meditation followed by Logical Analysis.
 (This is how the true shape of the Earth was discovered).
"Meditation is a holistic discipline  by which the practitioner attempts to get beyond the reflexive, "thinking" mind into a deeper state of relaxation or awareness-wiki" Relaxing proves the earth is flat how?  

Quote
The difference in method is important!

NB: The Zetetic Process, in full, is a two-fold investigative method. Unresolved classes of facts revealed by Zetetic Meditations are subjected to the second part of the proecdure, logical analysis.
IE guessing again.

 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 08:14:49 AM by sokarul »
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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #127 on: June 05, 2010, 10:06:46 PM »
Zeteticsm can't check for one answer at a time because that would be bias.  Only the scientific method can. 

I'm sorry to make what's essentially a low-content post, but wut?

What he means is, how do you know one reason is correct over another unless you test both reasons?

Why do you presume that if presented with multiple possibilities, a zeteticist wouldn't test them all?  My point is that for this question, testing itself is meaningless.  It's not a question for which testing is the least bit necessary if you have the testimony of those involved (unless you for some reason mistrust that testimony, but nothing about such a circumstance has been presented as part of the question).

If you test them all, then congratulations, you're using the Scientific Method.

Also:
By using a hypothesis, you limit yourself to answering one very simple question that can be statistically analyzed, resulting in you, the person, having no say in if it's right or wrong. 
That's kinda the point really: Take the scientist's biased out of the equation.

But with ZE the investigator is free to interpret the data however he/she wishes.

Here's another:

Elementary kids have different reading levels. 
Fact:
Kids with bigger shoe sizes have better reading scores.

What's the ZE conclusion?
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Tech

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #128 on: June 06, 2010, 01:01:04 AM »


Zetetic Meditations reveal either
The "immediate and demonstrable causes" of the phenomena in question (i.e., no a priori theorising) - no further investigation

Did any one else read that and laugh?

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Catchpa

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #129 on: June 06, 2010, 06:07:23 AM »
I think I laughed throughout his entire post.
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Crustinator

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #130 on: June 06, 2010, 08:48:38 AM »
Zetetic method provides direct access to the actual truth, through the dual procedure: Zetetic Meditation followed by Logical Analysis.
 (This is how the true shape of the Earth was discovered).

This is something you all (James, John, Tom) seem to struggle with.

You can't have a truth without a frame for that truth. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #131 on: June 06, 2010, 09:39:47 AM »
Quote
Why do you presume that if presented with multiple possibilities, a zeteticist wouldn't test them all?  My point is that for this question, testing itself is meaningless.  It's not a question for which testing is the least bit necessary if you have the testimony of those involved (unless you for some reason mistrust that testimony, but nothing about such a circumstance has been presented as part of the question).

If you test them all, then congratulations, you're using the Scientific Method.

Not unless you uselessly formulate a hypothesis first.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2010, 10:52:10 AM »
Quote
Why do you presume that if presented with multiple possibilities, a zeteticist wouldn't test them all?  My point is that for this question, testing itself is meaningless.  It's not a question for which testing is the least bit necessary if you have the testimony of those involved (unless you for some reason mistrust that testimony, but nothing about such a circumstance has been presented as part of the question).

If you test them all, then congratulations, you're using the Scientific Method.

Not unless you uselessly formulate a hypothesis first.
Can why drop this "hypothesis being worthless" crap already?  If scientists can't formulate hypothesizes then nothing would ever get done. 
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »
Quote
Why do you presume that if presented with multiple possibilities, a zeteticist wouldn't test them all?  My point is that for this question, testing itself is meaningless.  It's not a question for which testing is the least bit necessary if you have the testimony of those involved (unless you for some reason mistrust that testimony, but nothing about such a circumstance has been presented as part of the question).

If you test them all, then congratulations, you're using the Scientific Method.

Not unless you uselessly formulate a hypothesis first.
Can why drop this "hypothesis being worthless" crap already?  If scientists can't formulate hypothesizes then nothing would ever get done. 

I never said hypotheses were worthless.  ::)
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James

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2010, 11:46:48 AM »
Quote
Why do you presume that if presented with multiple possibilities, a zeteticist wouldn't test them all?  My point is that for this question, testing itself is meaningless.  It's not a question for which testing is the least bit necessary if you have the testimony of those involved (unless you for some reason mistrust that testimony, but nothing about such a circumstance has been presented as part of the question).

If you test them all, then congratulations, you're using the Scientific Method.

Not unless you uselessly formulate a hypothesis first.
Can why drop this "hypothesis being worthless" crap already?  If scientists can't formulate hypothesizes then nothing would ever get done. 

But clearly the scientists at the FES do not formulate hypotheses, yet we get a tremendous amount of work done.
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General Disarray

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2010, 11:49:19 AM »
But clearly the scientists at the FES do not formulate hypotheses, yet we get a tremendous amount of work done.

Let me know when you decide to post some of it.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #136 on: June 06, 2010, 11:50:41 AM »
But clearly the scientists at the FES do not formulate hypotheses, yet we get a tremendous amount of work done.

Let me know when you decide to post some of it.

Have you not seen James' work on the dinosaurs?  It's truly groundbreaking stuff.
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Catchpa

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #137 on: June 06, 2010, 11:57:53 AM »
His work on satanism is groundbreaking on the same level as well.
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Moon squirter

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2010, 12:28:13 PM »

Theoretic (globular) Method:
Invented Hypothesis (made up by scientist) -> Testing to Corroborate Hypothesis -> Conclusion (modified version of original hypothesis to fit evidence)


James, you missed out PEER REVIEW, arguably the most important stage of Theoretic (globular) Method.  Please do not mislead people into thinking the scientific method is just people dictating theories.  It is self regulating and self correcting over time.

As Zetetisicm deals with old idea of absolute "truth", this stage is clearly not necessary.  But how do we know when we've found "truth"?  Ask a priest.
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Crustinator

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #139 on: June 06, 2010, 01:24:00 PM »
But clearly the scientists at the FES do not formulate hypotheses, yet we get a tremendous amount of work done.

I've not seen any work done at all. :(

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Catchpa

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #140 on: June 06, 2010, 01:27:21 PM »
But clearly the scientists at the FES do not formulate hypotheses, yet we get a tremendous amount of work done.

I've not seen any work done at all. :(

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30418.0

Zetetic work at best.
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Catchpa

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #141 on: June 06, 2010, 01:34:23 PM »
How was Ichi's moonlight experiment zetetic? It seems he researched about moonlight and therefore interpreted that was harmful, then later made further experiments to see if it was true. His hypothesis being "Moonlight is harmful to plants".
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General Disarray

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #142 on: June 06, 2010, 04:59:45 PM »
Here's an example of how zetetic observation might truly arrive at a RE conclusion.

I see the sun and the moon, and observe that the sun is lit completely all the time that I can see it, but the moon is not, and wonder why this is. I then observe the changing patterns of light on the moon over a period of time.

I observe that more of the moon's surface is lit when it is at a farther angular distance from the sun in the sky, that it is not lit at all when the sun is directly behind it, and that it is lit completely when it is at the zenith exactly half a day after the sun is.

From all these, I can reasonably conclude that the sun is lighting the moon, and that some kind of rotation is taking place. Upon further inspection and comparing my observations with those from other parts of the world, I would conclude that the moon is rotating around the earth and that either the earth was spinning around its own axis, or the sun was rotating around the earth in a larger orbit.

I fail to see how true zetetic observations could conclude that the moon could be lit by bioluminescent organisms in exactly the pattern we would expect from the rotation system I describe above.

Also, how could someone see the sun sink below the horizon and conclude that light must be bending? A true zetetic's response would be that the sun is doing exactly what it appears to be doing, sinking below the horizon.
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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #143 on: June 06, 2010, 05:02:19 PM »
How was Ichi's moonlight experiment zetetic? It seems he researched about moonlight and therefore interpreted that was harmful, then later made further experiments to see if it was true. His hypothesis being "Moonlight is harmful to plants".

Don't bring logic into this thread.  I was actually going to point out the FET is full of hypotheses but i didn't think it was worth it. 
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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #144 on: June 06, 2010, 06:47:42 PM »
But clearly the scientists at the FES do not formulate hypotheses, yet we get a tremendous amount of work done.

I've not seen any work done at all. :(

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30418.0

Zetetic work at best.

I read through that, and it makes me wonder why the omnipotent being in the sky allows James to breathe our precious air.

That is some of the most worthless shit I have ever had the displeasure to read.   He asociates the many aeronautical corporations, etc with Satanism to illicit fear; thousands of companies use the 5-pointed star as part of their logo.  It also happens to be a Satatin symbol.  That makes them Satanists?  That's probably the stupidest, most fallicious thing I've ever heard.  That entire block of text means nothing.  James, you are truly a sick individual.

Please see Glenn Beck and his references to Nazi Germany.  He did the same thing; at the Nuclear Proliferation Sumit, he tried to link the logo to Nazi Germany.  His fear tactics are meaningless and irrational, as are all of your findings, James.  Someone needs to slap you across the face with cold, hard reality.

Trolling makes me angry.

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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #145 on: June 06, 2010, 08:02:08 PM »
I just realized that FEers are NOT followers of Zetetisicm!

The moon's lit facing appears towards the sun during the day.  Always.
The moon moves in the sky similar to the sun.
The moon's lit face appears to point towards the day area of the Planet (and the sun) all the time.

According to Zetetisicm, there is enough evidence to say that the moon is lit by the sun.
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General Disarray

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #146 on: June 06, 2010, 08:30:56 PM »
I just realized that FEers are NOT followers of Zetetisicm!

The moon's lit facing appears towards the sun during the day.  Always.
The moon moves in the sky similar to the sun.
The moon's lit face appears to point towards the day area of the Planet (and the sun) all the time.

According to Zetetisicm, there is enough evidence to say that the moon is lit by the sun.

Thanks for repeating what I just said...
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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #147 on: June 07, 2010, 03:37:02 AM »
I just realized that FEers are NOT followers of Zetetisicm!

The moon's lit facing appears towards the sun during the day.  Always.
The moon moves in the sky similar to the sun.
The moon's lit face appears to point towards the day area of the Planet (and the sun) all the time.

According to Zetetisicm, there is enough evidence to say that the moon is lit by the sun.

Thanks for repeating what I just said...

sorry. I knew I heard it from somewhere, just wasn't sure where. 
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #148 on: June 07, 2010, 07:12:35 AM »
The point is, FE'ers have to use the proven-correct Scientific Method to be taken seriously by anyone.  It's not flawed, as you think it is.  Zeteticism is incomplete, so is FET.

Trolling makes me angry.

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General Disarray

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #149 on: June 07, 2010, 07:19:24 AM »
The point is, FE'ers have to use the proven-correct Scientific Method to be taken seriously by anyone.  It's not flawed, as you think it is.  Zeteticism is incomplete, so is FET.

More than that, FET does not even meet Zetetic standards, much less scientific ones. Most aspects of FET require you to already make the assumption that the earth is flat, and blatantly contradict observed evidence.
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