A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2010, 09:46:28 PM »
The Zetetic proof for the FE map, please.

Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2010, 03:22:47 PM »
The Zetetic proof for the FE map, please.

"Zetetic proof" is an oxymoron.

Trolling makes me angry.

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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2010, 03:31:59 PM »


The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.

You need to stop lying too--or learn what the word "bias" means.

All username did was repeat what tom said and then ran away.  They can't prove anything. 
I'm sorry that Tom's beliefs concerning the method align with my own.  Really it should be no surprise.  I'd hardly call it running away though, but if that makes you feel better about using a sub-par epistemologically flawed method so be it.
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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2010, 03:32:57 PM »
The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.

You need to stop lying too--or learn what the word "bias" means.
It seems anytime you get in over your head you resort to just calling me a liar.  Do you have any evidence to back up your outlandish claims?

Choosing a hypothesis clearly gets in the way of looking at the data objectively. 

We have yet to hear one good reason why one should choose their bias before looking at the appropriate data gathered.
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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2010, 03:35:20 PM »
The Zetetic proof for the FE map, please.

"Zetetic proof" is an oxymoron.
As is a scientific proof.  Proof applies only to mathematics or other non-"real" constructs that we use largely as tools.
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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2010, 03:38:53 PM »
*sigh*  John Davis used to be Username.  James used to be Dogplatter.  Parsifal used to be RoboSteve.  Some old timers around here still use their older usernames.
Indeed, I have no qualms about being called either name.  I don't understand why this is still a point of discussion or why it ever was.
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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2010, 03:42:10 PM »
The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.

In what way are they compromised due to money?  The Scientific Method is the only way to prove something indefinitely.  Zeteticism, however, allows for huge margins of error and seriously blurs the line between guessing and reality.
Money invariably affects what globs research, what globs report when globs research, and where that leads.  In zeteticism this is not an issue due to gathering data first and then seeing what use or useful information it has.
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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2010, 03:43:46 PM »
   He didn't just wake up one morning and say "I wonder what shape the earth is".  Instead he woke up and said, "the earth looks flat, now how can I proved it".


Haha this is win. Even though I want to believe in the FET their whole how to make your own theory thing is BS to me.
Hardly.  In fact, I "just woke up one day" and asked that very same question and it lead me to the Flat Earth movement after a great time doing search and research in many different areas.
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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2010, 07:20:01 AM »
Wow. It's a new record. Six responses in a row and you STILL managed to avoid my question. Good job John.

Zetetic reasoning for/proof of the FE map?

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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2010, 10:33:08 AM »


The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.

You need to stop lying too--or learn what the word "bias" means.

All username did was repeat what tom said and then ran away.  They can't prove anything. 
I'm sorry that Tom's beliefs concerning the method align with my own.  Really it should be no surprise.  I'd hardly call it running away though, but if that makes you feel better about using a sub-par epistemologically flawed method so be it.
Read the first page and answer the real question.
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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #100 on: June 05, 2010, 01:04:39 PM »
Wow. It's a new record. Six responses in a row and you STILL managed to avoid my question. Good job John.

Zetetic reasoning for/proof of the FE map?
I don't hold the FE map is true.
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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #101 on: June 05, 2010, 01:05:37 PM »


The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.

You need to stop lying too--or learn what the word "bias" means.

All username did was repeat what tom said and then ran away.  They can't prove anything.  
I'm sorry that Tom's beliefs concerning the method align with my own.  Really it should be no surprise.  I'd hardly call it running away though, but if that makes you feel better about using a sub-par epistemologically flawed method so be it.
Read the first page and answer the real question.

Read the first page where I answered the question.
A 'Zetetic' is  "one who proceeds by inquiry; a seeker."  We seek data and from there draw conclusions that are not biased.  The accepted scientific method is flawed because it attempts to draw conclusions before ever seeing the data.
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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #102 on: June 05, 2010, 02:38:39 PM »
My bad, I meant the fourth page. 

The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.
Here is a simple question.

A supermarket is out of apples.  How is zetetiscm going to figure out why they are out of apples better than the scientific method? 
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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2010, 02:50:26 PM »
Zetetiscm would observe that people buy apples and conclude that the store is out of apples because people buy them.

Science would observe the same thing, then make a hypothesis as to why.  Then prove or disprove said hypothesis by asking customers why they are buying apples or not buying apples.
Science would also look at the store record to see how many apples were bought at various times vs how many are being purchased to see if there is a correlation between time of year, # of apples sold, and amount of apples the store buys.

After several separate experiments, they'd find a conclusion that has a 95% chance of being the correct one.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #104 on: June 05, 2010, 03:18:07 PM »
Zetetiscm would observe that people buy apples and conclude that the store is out of apples because people buy them.

Science would observe the same thing, then make a hypothesis as to why.  Then prove or disprove said hypothesis by asking customers why they are buying apples or not buying apples.
Science would also look at the store record to see how many apples were bought at various times vs how many are being purchased to see if there is a correlation between time of year, # of apples sold, and amount of apples the store buys.

After several separate experiments, they'd find a conclusion that has a 95% chance of being the correct one.

You can see, based on this example, how much more useful zeteticism is than the scientific method.  Look at all that wasted effort the scientist must undergo!
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2010, 03:19:52 PM »
Zetetiscm would observe that people buy apples and conclude that the store is out of apples because people buy them.

Science would observe the same thing, then make a hypothesis as to why.  Then prove or disprove said hypothesis by asking customers why they are buying apples or not buying apples.
Science would also look at the store record to see how many apples were bought at various times vs how many are being purchased to see if there is a correlation between time of year, # of apples sold, and amount of apples the store buys.

After several separate experiments, they'd find a conclusion that has a 95% chance of being the correct one.

You can see, based on this example, how much more useful zeteticism is than the scientific method.  Look at all that wasted effort the scientist must undergo!

So that means proven, well-defined and clearly-drawn conclusions aren't worth one's time and effort, but vague, poorly-drawn conclusions are adequate?

Trolling makes me angry.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »
Zetetiscm would observe that people buy apples and conclude that the store is out of apples because people buy them.

Science would observe the same thing, then make a hypothesis as to why.  Then prove or disprove said hypothesis by asking customers why they are buying apples or not buying apples.
Science would also look at the store record to see how many apples were bought at various times vs how many are being purchased to see if there is a correlation between time of year, # of apples sold, and amount of apples the store buys.

After several separate experiments, they'd find a conclusion that has a 95% chance of being the correct one.

You can see, based on this example, how much more useful zeteticism is than the scientific method.  Look at all that wasted effort the scientist must undergo!

So that means proven, well-defined and clearly-drawn conclusions aren't worth one's time and effort, but vague, poorly-drawn conclusions are adequate?

No, it means the zeteticist adequately answered the question without the extra effort.

q: Why are there no apples in the store?
a: The store sold out.

What more information is necessary to answer the question accurately?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2010, 03:28:46 PM »
Zetetiscm would observe that people buy apples and conclude that the store is out of apples because people buy them.

Science would observe the same thing, then make a hypothesis as to why.  Then prove or disprove said hypothesis by asking customers why they are buying apples or not buying apples.
Science would also look at the store record to see how many apples were bought at various times vs how many are being purchased to see if there is a correlation between time of year, # of apples sold, and amount of apples the store buys.

After several separate experiments, they'd find a conclusion that has a 95% chance of being the correct one.

You can see, based on this example, how much more useful zeteticism is than the scientific method.  Look at all that wasted effort the scientist must undergo!

They didn't answer the question. 
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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2010, 03:34:29 PM »
Or the store didn't buy any.
Or the apples were all stolen out of the back so no new ones could be put out.
Or they all went rotten and customers complained after buying them.
Or they had some other problem that required a recall.
Or they're out of season and no one can stock them.
....


Yeah, that REALLY answers the question...  ::)

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2010, 03:37:27 PM »
Why do you need an accurate answer when a quick false one works just fine?
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2010, 03:38:23 PM »
Or the store didn't buy any.
Or the apples were all stolen out of the back so no new ones could be put out.
Or they all went rotten and customers complained after buying them.
Or they had some other problem that required a recall.
Or they're out of season and no one can stock them.
....


Yeah, that REALLY answers the question...  ::)

Yes, you're right.  Explain to me why zeteticism couldn't reasonably lead to the same conclusions?  It seems that for such a question, formulating a hypothesis is completely unnecessary.  Or maybe you could explain what purpose a hypothesis would serve, when the only thing you really need to do is question the store owner and perhaps some employees for an answer to the question.

Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2010, 03:42:43 PM »
Yes, you're right.  Explain to me why zeteticism couldn't reasonably lead to the same conclusions?  It seems that for such a question, formulating a hypothesis is completely unnecessary.  Or maybe you could explain what purpose a hypothesis would serve, when the only thing you really need to do is question the store owner and perhaps some employees for an answer to the question.

The problem is, Zeteticism doesn't require any additional research.  Zeteticism stops at "Because the store was sold out." The Scientific Method, however, essentially digs deeper.

Relating to the Earth, a Zetetic might say, "Hey, the Earth looks flat; it must be flat."  Anyone following the Scientific Method, however, would ask (hypothesize) "Why does it look flat?"  From there, they would do experiments, etc, and eventually find out that it looks flat because of perspective.  It won't look curved until adequate altitude is reached.

Trolling makes me angry.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2010, 03:55:09 PM »
Yes, you're right.  Explain to me why zeteticism couldn't reasonably lead to the same conclusions?  It seems that for such a question, formulating a hypothesis is completely unnecessary.  Or maybe you could explain what purpose a hypothesis would serve, when the only thing you really need to do is question the store owner and perhaps some employees for an answer to the question.

The problem is, Zeteticism doesn't require any additional research.  Zeteticism stops at "Because the store was sold out." The Scientific Method, however, essentially digs deeper.

Right, but there's no need for the question to be dug deeper than zeteticism is able to do.  Zeteticism does not stop at "Because the store was sold out".  Zeteticism would probably stop at (as I indicated above) questioning the store's owner and employees for an answer to the question.  If we apply the scientific method, now we must start out not with the obvious path, outlined above, but by forming a hypothesis, and testing the hypothesis, etc.  I really don't understand sokarul's point in bringing this up, because employing the scientific method to answer the simple question of why there are no apples in the store is a total waste of time.
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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #113 on: June 05, 2010, 03:57:52 PM »
Or the store didn't buy any.
Or the apples were all stolen out of the back so no new ones could be put out.
Or they all went rotten and customers complained after buying them.
Or they had some other problem that required a recall.
Or they're out of season and no one can stock them.
....


Yeah, that REALLY answers the question...  ::)

Yes, you're right.  Explain to me why zeteticism couldn't reasonably lead to the same conclusions?  It seems that for such a question, formulating a hypothesis is completely unnecessary.  Or maybe you could explain what purpose a hypothesis would serve, when the only thing you really need to do is question the store owner and perhaps some employees for an answer to the question.


Zeteticsm can't check for one answer at a time because that would be bias.  Only the scientific method can. 
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Lorddave

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2010, 04:02:18 PM »
I had a big post about questions and how science tests one specific possibility at a time but sokarul summed it up nicely.

Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2010, 04:09:20 PM »
Right, but there's no need for the question to be dug deeper than zeteticism is able to do.  Zeteticism does not stop at "Because the store was sold out".  Zeteticism would probably stop at (as I indicated above) questioning the store's owner and employees for an answer to the question.  If we apply the scientific method, now we must start out not with the obvious path, outlined above, but by forming a hypothesis, and testing the hypothesis, etc.  I really don't understand sokarul's point in bringing this up, because employing the scientific method to answer the simple question of why there are no apples in the store is a total waste of time.

"Is the Earth flat?" is not as simple a question as "Why is the store out of applels?"

It requires more time, in-depth study, and experimentation that Zeteticism requires. 

Trolling makes me angry.

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John Davis

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2010, 04:11:19 PM »
Yes, you're right.  Explain to me why zeteticism couldn't reasonably lead to the same conclusions?  It seems that for such a question, formulating a hypothesis is completely unnecessary.  Or maybe you could explain what purpose a hypothesis would serve, when the only thing you really need to do is question the store owner and perhaps some employees for an answer to the question.

The problem is, Zeteticism doesn't require any additional research.  Zeteticism stops at "Because the store was sold out." The Scientific Method, however, essentially digs deeper.

Hrm I don't think you understand zeteticism.
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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2010, 04:12:19 PM »
My bad, I meant the fourth page. 

The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.
Here is a simple question.

A supermarket is out of apples.  How is zetetiscm going to figure out why they are out of apples better than the scientific method? 
Simply enough by gathering all the data available and then seeing what model would fit the data set.  Then they would test this.
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sokarul

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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2010, 04:23:28 PM »
My bad, I meant the fourth page. 

The simple nature of choosing first a bias, then testing against that bias, and finally interpreting the data against that bias pollutes the fruits of the scientific method.  Its no wonder non-zet. studies and research are compromised due to money.
Here is a simple question.

A supermarket is out of apples.  How is zetetiscm going to figure out why they are out of apples better than the scientific method? 
Simply enough by gathering all the data available and then seeing what model would fit the data set.  Then they would test this.
So the opposite of what roundy siad? 
The data gathered will not be correct because unknown factors will not be removed in the data gathering process.  This is why the scientific method has a hypothesis and then tests it.  Unknown error will be removed when testing for one thing.   
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Re: A FE'er please explain Zetetisicm
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2010, 04:29:28 PM »
Simply enough by gathering all the data available and then seeing what model would fit the data set.  Then they would test this.

Except Zeteticism in in practice when applied to FET gathers a very small amount of data, reaches the conclusion that the earth is flat, rejects all other data as being part of a conspiracy, and invents all sorts of unobserved and increasingly improbable things to explain observed phenomena.
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