Misinterpreted: Jesus' apostles as soldiers

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babsinva

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Misinterpreted: Jesus' apostles as soldiers
« on: May 23, 2010, 05:45:38 PM »
This thread is very different from "Bible Myths", since those are usually taken from church doctrine, dogma, mantra, by-laws, constitutions and so on.  In that sense people take the bible and make it fit into their comfy life, instead of taking their life and making it fit according to the bible.

Here in Misinterpreted Scriptures, people often just do not understand something, and will make it part of their philosophy or beliefs with OR without a religion.  It is true that sometimes misinterpretation can lead to a bible myth, but not always for some people are not religious at all, and their lives are not governed by the bible.  Sometimes it's just that they do not have a clear understanding, and the misinterpretation is accidental.  And also translations, transcribing, and transliteration are part of the problem.

I will continue changing the topic in the thread so one will not have to scroll through pages to find that which they are interested in.  Feel free to comment on the topic at hand, or post a new question about a scripture that is confusing.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:06:26 PM by babsinva »
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babsinva

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Re: Earth's shape - Round flat disc; Spherical; or Square
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2010, 06:08:48 PM »

Areweonfiya’s remark in RM prompted me to start with this topic for this thread.

There are many biblical references that imply a flat Earth. One of the most direct is, Matthew 4:8, ?Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.? But, you can?t see the entire world from a mountain - unless the Earth is flat! Is that why you believe so? For religious purposes? I am on the verge of insanity here.

I agree there are many biblical scriptures that may lead one to believe the earth is a round, flat disc, but there are also many scriptures that would lead one to believe the earth is square and flat.  This is not new.  A similar theory arose much earlier, when philosopher and cartographer Anaximenes of Miletus rejected the shape of the earth taught by his teacher Anaximander, and although agreed it was flat, thought it to be rectangular in shape and supported by compressed air.

Below are some scriptures that (could for some) indicate a square earth:
  • Isaiah 11:12      - speaks of the 4 extremities of the earth
  • Revelation 7:1   - speaks of the earth’s 4 corners (some bibles says foursquare)
  • Jeremiah 49:36  - speaks of 4 extremities

However one must consider the context in which it was written, and know something about ancient Hebrew times and people in order to address the square-ness issue.  The number four and the word foursquareness NOT only denotes symmetry and form, but can be used to mean universalness.  The Hebrews of ancient biblical times divided the earth (and even cities - even when not perfectly square) into 4 (four) quarters or regions corresponding to the four points on a compass.

The point is the scriptures that imply (to some) a flat earth is no more credible than the scriptures mentioning four corners to mean, represent, or imply a square earth.

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Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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babsinva

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Re: A Nazarite/Nazarene? -Which one
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 10:40:42 PM »

So was Jesus OR others called Nazarites or Nazarenes?


Both are correct, but mean totally different things.

First Nazarite:
One who was a Nazarite means one singled out; dedicated one; separated one.  There were two such classifications of Nazarites - those that volunteered, and those by such divine appointment.  Nazarites that were volunteers had certain restrictions and a special vow they had to take to be dedicated to God for a period of time.  The Nazirites that were appointed took no special vow, and were not bound by a limited period of time, since they were lifetime Nazarites singled out by God for special service.  The latter here would include Samson.  He was however still required to grow his locks long and no razor should come to his head.  Why is this?  Because it served as a crowning sign by which all could quickly recognize his holy Nazariteship.  You will see Nazarites mentioned mostly in the book of Numbers chapter 6, and Judges chapter 13.

Second Nazarene:
Is identifying someone from a place - the city being Nazareth.  Located on a mountain, it was close to other cities and towns, and near trade routes.  If someone in the U.S. is from the state of Pennsylvania they may be called a Pennsylvannian, just as those from North or South Carolina may be called Carolinians.  It is more descriptive than simply saying American, for it denotes a specific area.  Jesus was a Nazarene.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 04:33:37 PM »
Why do you think your interpretation is the correct interpretation?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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babsinva

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2010, 07:07:20 PM »
Why do you think your interpretation is the correct interpretation?

Using the last post for example Nazarite vs. Nazarene - the scriptures say exactly what one must do to be a Nazarite, and what it consists of.  Many people use the words interchangeably and they are not the same.

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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babsinva

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Re: From Galilee or Nazareth?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2010, 07:42:40 PM »

Some say Jesus was fom Galilee and others say Nazareth, and still others say, ... I thought he was from Bethlehem.  Some say, yeah but he was a Jew so wasn't he from Judea or Jerusalem?

Almost all of those  ^^ are correct.
Nazareth was a city of/ in Galilee.
Judea was a city of/ in Bethlehem.
Jerusalem was neither.

One can be born in one place, move and grown up in another, and still die in another.
Jesus was born in Judea of Bethlehem, based on a decree by Caesar Augustus that a registration be carried out by all the land, and each person (not just those of recent birth) must travel to their place of origin to register there.  Jesus grew up and was raised in Nazareth of Galilee, for his parents had lived there.  Shortly after his birth, they did not stay in Bethlehem, but returned home.  Galilee was a territory or district containing many cities.  He was impaled in Jerusalem.

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 12:02:36 PM »
You didn't answer my question. Also, I've never heard anyone misinterpret the scripture regarding Nazareth.  Some people may get confused and interchange the words, but that is not due to a misinterpretation. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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babsinva

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 12:22:34 PM »
You didn't answer my question. Also, I've never heard anyone misinterpret the scripture regarding Nazareth.  Some people may get confused and interchange the words, but that is not due to a misinterpretation. 

People often do not understand that Nazareth was part of Galilee.  Perhaps one may not call it a misinterpretation, but I don't know what category to put it under.  Some people will argue and say Jesus was not a Galilean (when he was that also) OR they will say the scriptures do not agree and there are inconsistencies as to his living place and also birth place when neither are true, but instead they just did not read far enough.

To answer your previous question better than I did before, is because I do not use dogma, mantra, doctrine, by-laws, or a church constitution but use only the biblical scriptures.  The whole dogma, mantra etc thing I spoke about in the "Bible Myths" thread with 2 or 3 posts explaining that. 

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 04:54:40 PM »
I'm sure you color coded it and used bullet points too ;)
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Benocrates

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 01:52:09 PM »
This topic seems fit only for biblical scholars. I don't think many people on the forum, including me, have enough academic insight into the minutia of biblical translation and interpretation.
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babsinva

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Re: The Most Misinterpreted Scriptures - but not myths
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 02:59:00 PM »
This topic seems fit only for biblical scholars. I don't think many people on the forum, including me, have enough academic insight into the minutia of biblical translation and interpretation.

Understood.  That's why I tried to use the more simpler scriptures instead of the more complicated ones.  It may provide some clarity for some people.

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babsinva

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Re: Which Bethlehem? disambiguation
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 10:28:48 PM »

There is some disambiguation on Bethlehem’s location (Jesus' birthplace) at least for some people, however the scriptures clearly state where.

Some say the trip was not long, for Bethlehem was not that far away.  That’s because there were 2 Bethlehems, just as there is more than one Richmond: Richmond, VA; Richmond, TX; and Richmond, KY to name a few.  All are in the USA and all located in the south, but all three are very different places. 

There was a town named Bethlehem, a mere seven miles from Nazareth, however the scriptures specified that it was “Bethlehem Ephrathah” that would produce the Messiah, and that is in the prophecy of Micah 5:2.  By present day roads, some 93 hilly miles separate Nazareth from that Bethlehem in the south.  That’s why the phrase “went up from Galilee” (Lu 2:4) is appropriate, because Bethlehem was perched at a lofty altitude of over 2,500 feet - quite a climb, an arduous end to a trek of several days.  Another point using the same scripture at Luke 2:4 is that they went "into Judea, to David's city, which is called Bethlehem."  David's city Judea is only in the Bethlehem Ephrathah and NOT in the other Bethlehem.

So really there should be NO disambiguation, but is only a misinterpretation instead, based on lack of further reading.

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babsinva

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Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 10:24:23 PM »
This has come up once before in another thread, but still seems to be a question on people's minds, so since it's been about 6 months I'll try again.

I would say that there are a couple of  lines which might paint the big J as a soldier "I bring a sword, not peace" is, I think one line and when he comes riding in during Revelation his mouth is 'like a double edged sword'   Don't ask me for the exact references, I'm not in a position to find them at the mo. 

No Jesus was not a fighter, or a warrior and the whole sword thing  - again that too is taken out of context or misinterpreted.  Jesus was a peaceful, kind, and caring person.  He not only was peaceful with people but also at peace with himself, and taught others to be peaceable with all men.  There are scriptures on that.  The scripture about the sword is in more than one place, but in reference to this statement above, then the best ones are in Luke 12:51-53 which talks about not bringing peace but bringing division.  It is also mentioned and more detailed in the account of Matthew 10:32-39, with verse 34 talking about not peace, but a sword.  I will summarize but you should read the whole thing for complete understanding. 

Basically in Matthew,  (Jesus speaking) and saying everyone that is in union with me, will be in union with my Father, for I will confess to Him your union, but should you disown me, then I will disown you.  Then it goes on to say divisions can be against mother, brother sister, father and members of ones' household, but if it is for the sake of My Father's name then it's OK, because you have shown that He is more important than men, and if not and you can't do that, then you are not worthy of me.  In other words choose.  That's the division with the sword - not some conquistador going to battle. 

The blade of the sword or the sword itself is not literal, but the division is literal.  Metaphorically speaking, since a sword can cut or sever - in one's life it too can sever or divide the good from the bad.  You can choose not to be separated or divided from family, friends, neighbors and the like and if you just can't give that up - even when you know they are doing wrong, then that divides you and GOD.  However if your family, friends, and neighbors do something that you know God doesn't want and you walk away from it because you are strong enough and do not have to be a follower of men, then your division may be with them, but at least it won't be with God.  Basic terms -  if your best friend jumps off a bridge are you going to jump off too?  No.  Have sense, be strong, do what's right.  Who cares whether you are liked by men.  And once there is that division among you and men, they may persecute you for no reason, just because you've made changes and aren't very cool any more to hang out with.  So – who cares. 

And B-T-W the reference to sword in Revelation is not the same sword talked about here.

I will address the so-called mean Barbaric God later.
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Benocrates

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 10:29:42 AM »
You do realize that nobody gives a shit about any of this...This isn't a spam board, it's one for discussion.
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babsinva

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 04:02:24 PM »
You do realize that nobody gives a shit about any of this...This isn't a spam board, it's one for discussion.

Actually Marcus has asked a question which I will answer.

Besides I said this in my 1st post .. >>
Quote
or post a new question about a scripture that is confusing.

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Benocrates

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2010, 05:32:53 PM »
Just quit spamming, you're posting a ridiculous amount of information that, unless you have absolutely nothing to do with your day, is copypasta.
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Crustinator

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2010, 05:37:13 PM »

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Benocrates

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2010, 05:39:29 PM »
Those posts weren't from P,R&S
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babsinva

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2010, 11:18:42 PM »
Just quit spamming, you're posting a ridiculous amount of information that, unless you have absolutely nothing to do with your day, is copypasta.

Quotes from another thread here on the forum I already posted in, and taken from my words there - is not considered copypasta.  ** Lurk Moar

Words copy and pasted from an article I wrote and stored on my hard drive is my own work and so it also is not copypasta.


This isn't a spam board, it's one for discussion.

Au contraire mon filet mignon.

Thanks Crusty - I think.


Ben if you want to ask a question about a scripture that is hard to understand - then post it - sure.  But if you have nothing to add but criticism then it's not productive.
Now who's spamming?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 05:44:08 AM »
This has come up once before in another thread, but still seems to be a question on people's minds, so since it's been about 6 months I'll try again.

I would say that there are a couple of  lines which might paint the big J as a soldier "I bring a sword, not peace" is, I think one line and when he comes riding in during Revelation his mouth is 'like a double edged sword'   Don't ask me for the exact references, I'm not in a position to find them at the mo. 

No Jesus was not a fighter, or a warrior and the whole sword thing  - again that too is taken out of context or misinterpreted.  Jesus was a peaceful, kind, and caring person.  He not only was peaceful with people but also at peace with himself, and taught others to be peaceable with all men.  There are scriptures on that.  The scripture about the sword is in more than one place, but in reference to this statement above, then the best ones are in Luke 12:51-53 which talks about not bringing peace but bringing division.  It is also mentioned and more detailed in the account of Matthew 10:32-39, with verse 34 talking about not peace, but a sword.  I will summarize but you should read the whole thing for complete understanding. 

Basically in Matthew,  (Jesus speaking) and saying everyone that is in union with me...

That's pretty much how I interpreted it, coming not to bring peace but to bring divisions. I am in the firm belief that we should be looking at bridging divisions where possible not burning them down for the sake of a celestial despot.

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Crustinator

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 05:52:00 AM »
Those posts weren't from P,R&S

Oh OK so the rest of the board is for spam? Thanks for the update!

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Benocrates

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 06:25:57 AM »
Those posts weren't from P,R&S

Oh OK so the rest of the board is for spam? Thanks for the update!

Um....yah...that's what flat earth discussion basically is. This is the only sane bastion of FES, the only reason I'm here. So stop fucking it up.
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Crustinator

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2010, 07:18:17 AM »
Um....yah...that's what flat earth discussion basically is. This is the only sane bastion of FES, the only reason I'm here. So stop fucking it up.

Oh OK.

I think Jesus brought a piece not a sword.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Misinterpreted Scriptures - Jesus Brings Sword not Peace
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2010, 09:52:49 AM »
I think Beno's point here is that babs thinks he is instructing people, and isn't interested in discussing anything.  He uses himself as a reference all the time, and hardly anyone ever calls bullshit.  If you disagree with him regarding anything he refers you to one of his posts in a different thread  instead of explaining his position.  Also, if you happen to try to enter into a discussion with him, he'll bombard you with condescending private messages.. as if disagreeing in a debate isn't something that is normal or expected.  Shit, I don't know of any two people, really, who have the exact same religious beliefs. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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babsinva

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Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2010, 02:39:46 PM »

This has come up once before in another thread, but still seems to be a question on people's minds, so since it's been about 6 months I'll try again.

I would say that there are a couple of  lines which might paint the big J as a soldier "I bring a sword, not peace" is, I think one line and when he comes riding in during Revelation his mouth is 'like a double edged sword'   Don't ask me for the exact references, I'm not in a position to find them at the mo. 

No Jesus was not a fighter, or a warrior and the whole sword thing  - again that too is taken out of context or misinterpreted.  Jesus was a peaceful, kind, and caring person.  He not only was peaceful with people but also at peace with himself, and taught others to be peaceable with all men.  There are scriptures on that.  The scripture about the sword is in more than one place, but in reference to this statement above, then the best ones are in Luke 12:51-53 which talks about not bringing peace but bringing division.  It is also mentioned and more detailed in the account of Matthew 10:32-39, with verse 34 talking about not peace, but a sword.  I will summarize but you should read the whole thing for complete understanding. 

Basically in Matthew,  (Jesus speaking) and saying everyone that is in union with me...

That's pretty much how I interpreted it, coming not to bring peace but to bring divisions. I am in the firm belief that we should be looking at bridging divisions where possible not burning them down for the sake of a celestial despot.

I can understand your point, but Jesus wasn't trying to burn bridges or bring a division between families, friends, neighbors etc, BUT he knows a division will be the result, because people will have to choose.  If one decides to follow God's laws, and ignores his parents false teachings, then so be it.  This is not the same as ignoring the command to honor your mother and father.  But it is better to be right in the eyes of God then the eyes of men.  He's not saying go and create the division, but instead is saying disassociate yourself from the wrong, but then others will persecute you, as they did me (HIM), but no one has left mother, father, sister, or brother for the sake of my name, who will not be rewarded.

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2010, 03:25:25 PM »
This has come up once before in another thread, but still seems to be a question on people's minds, so since it's been about 6 months I'll try again.

I would say that there are a couple of  lines which might paint the big J as a soldier "I bring a sword, not peace" is, I think one line and when he comes riding in during Revelation his mouth is 'like a double edged sword'   Don't ask me for the exact references, I'm not in a position to find them at the mo. 

No Jesus was not a fighter, or a warrior and the whole sword thing  - again that too is taken out of context or misinterpreted.  Jesus was a peaceful, kind, and caring person.  He not only was peaceful with people but also at peace with himself, and taught others to be peaceable with all men.  There are scriptures on that.  The scripture about the sword is in more than one place, but in reference to this statement above, then the best ones are in Luke 12:51-53 which talks about not bringing peace but bringing division.  It is also mentioned and more detailed in the account of Matthew 10:32-39, with verse 34 talking about not peace, but a sword.  I will summarize but you should read the whole thing for complete understanding. 

Basically in Matthew,  (Jesus speaking) and saying everyone that is in union with me...

That's pretty much how I interpreted it, coming not to bring peace but to bring divisions. I am in the firm belief that we should be looking at bridging divisions where possible not burning them down for the sake of a celestial despot.

Babs hit the nail on the head but I just want to reiterate his point.

Your interpretation is incorrect, plain and simple.

It stands in direct contrast to what Jesus said at other times and places (He who lives by the sword will die by the sword), as well as the examples of the many disciples who went to their physical death by preaching the word with the intention of redeeming the lost. Even if you are the most passionate atheist in the world, you as least have to acknowledge that even if Christianity is just a big scam, Jesus would have at least made sure that the ideas he put forward were internally consistent.

Jesus knew that his message would cause division and resentment, but that is not its ultimate aim. Christianity at its core is extremely offensive to the world, and quite frankly if "bridging divisions" means compromising the values that he taught us, then I want nothing to do with it.
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babsinva

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Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2010, 03:41:37 PM »

Babs hit the nail on the head but I just want to reiterate his point.

Wow Canadark and I agree. yeah win win.

Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2010, 06:51:10 PM »

Babs hit the nail on the head but I just want to reiterate his point.

Wow Canadark and I agree. yeah win win.



Dios mio  :P
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Slemon

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Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 08:31:33 AM »
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
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Re: Misinterpreted - Jesus a Soldier
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2010, 06:24:16 PM »
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
 :o


Like so many people on this forum, the pieces of scripture you refer to are either taken out of context or invented in your own mind.
:o
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