The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2010, 02:43:41 PM »
Brilliant, ok. So do you agree that, given the laws of inference, for a sentence to be logically valid is for it to be formulated such that there is no possible circumstance where the premises are true and the conclusion false?
Let's just work with this part here...

log·ic
–noun
4.
reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.

Now let's apply that to some of your seriously outlandish, unproven claims.  Like the one about the shadows in craters on the moon, actually being migrating lifeforms eating the moon.  This theory of yours screams of unreasonable and anything but sound judgment.


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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2010, 03:05:42 PM »
I am talking about the laws of formal logic.

Sliver, are any of the claims of FET logically invalid? Which ones are they?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2010, 03:36:57 PM »
I am talking about the laws of formal logic.

Sliver, are any of the claims of FET logically invalid? Which ones are they?
Well, I'd say the conspiracy, the ice wall, the spotlight sun, the moon eating itself would be a few to start with.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2010, 03:59:12 PM »
I am talking about the laws of formal logic.

Sliver, are any of the claims of FET logically invalid? Which ones are they?
Well, I'd say the conspiracy, the ice wall, the spotlight sun, the moon eating itself would be a few to start with.

Well, clearly you aren't even versed in the basics of logic if you think that then! What is logically invalid about the arguments used to support these claims?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/622154/validity

What makes the arguments of FET logically invalid?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Ellipsis

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2010, 04:05:17 PM »
Being logical doesn't mean being right, because you can presume any logical premise you want even if it has nothing to do with reality.

Premise 1: Gold is valuable.
Premise 2: I become rich by attaining many things of value.
Premise 3: I crap gold.
Conclusion: I can easily become rich by crapping enough gold.

Being logically sound can still have no bearing in reality, since I don't actually crap gold.  This is the FE mistake, in that "the Earth is flat" is always a presumed premise and never a conclusion, so it being wrong means the conclusion doesn't hold in reality.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2010, 04:07:46 PM »
Bene, Ellipsis. It fills me with so much rage when silly little globularists think they understand the meaning of logical validity and cry "Flat Earth is illogical"! What they actually want to evince is that they think it is false, but they're so ill-informed that they don't even understand the difference. I find it incredible that people with such a ridiculous dearth of understanding can be so utterly convinced that they know everything.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Ellipsis

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2010, 04:10:51 PM »
If one of your premises is wrong, your conclusion can also be wrong, regardless of how logical it is.

Would you disagree?

Presuming the premise "Earth is flat" doesn't make one illogical, but it does make one wrong.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2010, 04:15:32 PM »
If one of your premises is wrong, your conclusion can also be wrong, regardless of how logical it is.

Would you disagree?

Presuming the premise "Earth is flat" doesn't make one illogical, but it does make one wrong.

Yes absolutely. That's precisely what I'm saying. Sliver, because he is severely impeded in knowledge, doesn't understand the difference between invalidity and falsity, which means he can't coherently deliver his opinions. This was the problem I wished to address with all this talk of logic.

Edit: See below!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 04:19:26 PM by James »
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2010, 04:16:56 PM »
Well, clearly you aren't even versed in the basics of logic if you think that then! What is logically invalid about the arguments used to support these claims?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/622154/validity

What makes the arguments of FET logically invalid?
Let's take this part of your link...
Whenever the premises are true, the conclusion must be true, because of the form of the argument.
Your premises that the craters are migrating life forms, that there is a massive conspiracy, the ice wall, bendy light, spotlight sun, moonlight is harmful, are all untrue.  Therefore your conclusion is also untrue, and therefore your arguments are logically invalid.  Before you insit that I prove your little bull**** statements are untrue, you must first provide evidence to support them, which you have not done.

Also, it's very nice to see you STILL have not renounced the troll label i stuck on you.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2010, 04:18:37 PM »
Well, clearly you aren't even versed in the basics of logic if you think that then! What is logically invalid about the arguments used to support these claims?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/622154/validity

What makes the arguments of FET logically invalid?
Let's take this part of your link...
Whenever the premises are true, the conclusion must be true, because of the form of the argument.
Your premises that the craters are migrating life forms, that there is a massive conspiracy, the ice wall, bendy light, spotlight sun, moonlight is harmful, are all untrue.  Therefore your conclusion is also untrue, and therefore your arguments are logically invalid.  Before you insit that I prove your little bull**** statements are untrue, you must first provide evidence to support them, which you have not done.

Also, it's very nice to see you STILL have not renounced the troll label i stuck on you.

Ah, you see! You just simply don't get, do you? You're trying to tell me that my beliefs are false, not logically invalid!
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2010, 04:18:40 PM »
If one of your premises is wrong, your conclusion can also be wrong, regardless of how logical it is.

Would you disagree?

Presuming the premise "Earth is flat" doesn't make one illogical, but it does make one wrong.

Yes absolutely. That's precisely what I'm saying. Sliver, because he is severely impeded in knowledge, doesn't understand the difference between invalidity and falsity, which means he can't coherently deliver his opinions. This was the problem I wished to address with all this talk of logic.
This coming from a guy scared of the moon?  And I'm the one impeded in knowledge?  This statement makes me think you're trying to antagonize me into doing something you can ban me for.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2010, 04:20:51 PM »
Well you've just demonstrated that you don't grasp the concept of logical validity, which makes you a pretty poor arbiter of knowledge, doesn't it?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2010, 04:26:08 PM »
Well you've just demonstrated that you don't grasp the concept of logical validity, which makes you a pretty poor arbiter of knowledge, doesn't it?
I grasped it just fine.  If your premises are true, your conclusion is true.  That's actually circular reasoning.  And since your premises are not true, your conclusion cannot be true either.  All that aside, though, you seem to have no problem with me saying your premises are untrue, which would mean you also believe they are untrue, which would simply make you a troll.  See how that logic worked?

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2010, 04:41:22 PM »
Well you've just demonstrated that you don't grasp the concept of logical validity, which makes you a pretty poor arbiter of knowledge, doesn't it?
I grasped it just fine.  If your premises are true, your conclusion is true.  That's actually circular reasoning.  And since your premises are not true, your conclusion cannot be true either.  All that aside, though, you seem to have no problem with me saying your premises are untrue, which would mean you also believe they are untrue, which would simply make you a troll.  See how that logic worked?

You are so silly! An argument is logically invalid iff there are possible circumstances in which the premises are true and the conclusion false. Since none of the arguments of Flat Earth Theory fulfill this critereon, none of them are logically invalid. You claimed they were, because you did not know what logically invalid actually means.

I do not think my premises are false. You may think my premises are false, but unless you think there are possible circumstances in which my premises are true AND my conclusion false, you do not think my arguments are logically invalid, Q. E. D.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2010, 04:43:19 PM »
You are so silly!
Please refrain from personal attacks in the upper forums.  Thanks.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2010, 04:47:43 PM »
Silliness isn't a bad thing, it is a state of unknowing. I am making a literal observation which is perspicuous to the topic at hand - your grasp of the fundaments of logic.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2010, 04:53:08 PM »
Silliness isn't a bad thing, it is a state of unknowing. I am making a literal observation which is perspicuous to the topic at hand - your grasp of the fundaments of logic.
Fair enough, than you wouldn't have a problem with me calling you silly for thinking moonlight is harmful.  It's just a state of unknowing, right?

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markjo

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2010, 07:11:25 PM »
Brilliant, ok. So do you agree that, given the laws of inference, for a sentence to be logically valid is for it to be formulated such that there is no possible circumstance where the premises are true and the conclusion false?

Is this an admission that your conclusions about the Earth being flat might be false?

No, it is a denial of their being illogical.

Does this mean that your conclusion that the Earth being flat could be logically valid but factually false?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Idee Unfixe

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2010, 08:22:52 PM »
We really can safely concede the point that any given FET may be logical and move on...

( ) or _ ?

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2010, 04:00:04 AM »
Brilliant, ok. So do you agree that, given the laws of inference, for a sentence to be logically valid is for it to be formulated such that there is no possible circumstance where the premises are true and the conclusion false?

Is this an admission that your conclusions about the Earth being flat might be false?

No, it is a denial of their being illogical.

Does this mean that your conclusion that the Earth being flat could be logically valid but factually false?

It certainly could be, but clearly I don't think it is. I consider my arguments to be logically sound as well as logically valid.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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markjo

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2010, 05:06:50 AM »
Brilliant, ok. So do you agree that, given the laws of inference, for a sentence to be logically valid is for it to be formulated such that there is no possible circumstance where the premises are true and the conclusion false?

Is this an admission that your conclusions about the Earth being flat might be false?

No, it is a denial of their being illogical.

Does this mean that your conclusion that the Earth being flat could be logically valid but factually false?

It certainly could be, but clearly I don't think it is. I consider my arguments to be logically sound as well as logically valid.

It's not what you think that matters, it's what you can prove.  Logically sound and logically valid do not always mean factually correct.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2010, 05:48:55 AM »
Actually, logically sound does mean that the conclusion is factually correct, because a logically sound argument is a logically valid argument with true premises.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Catchpa

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2010, 05:57:13 AM »
What the hell does this matter?
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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Sliver

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2010, 11:17:48 AM »
What the hell does this matter?
That's a very good question.

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markjo

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2010, 08:39:49 PM »
Actually, logically sound does mean that the conclusion is factually correct, because a logically sound argument is a logically valid argument with true premises.

You're assuming that your premise and your data are correct in the first place.  Remember the concept of GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2010, 04:54:01 AM »
Actually, logically sound does mean that the conclusion is factually correct, because a logically sound argument is a logically valid argument with true premises.

You're assuming that your premise and your data are correct in the first place.  Remember the concept of GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out.

That's right, but clearly I don't consider zetetic meditations to be garbage, and they are what furnish the premises of my arguments.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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markjo

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2010, 06:18:43 AM »
Actually, logically sound does mean that the conclusion is factually correct, because a logically sound argument is a logically valid argument with true premises.

You're assuming that your premise and your data are correct in the first place.  Remember the concept of GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out.

That's right, but clearly I don't consider zetetic meditations to be garbage, and they are what furnish the premises of my arguments.

I'm not calling the Zetetic method garbage.  The concept of GIGO does not refer to the process, rather to the data.  You can have a flawless logical process, but that process is useless if the data that you feed into it isn't valid or appropriate.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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James

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2010, 06:48:15 AM »
Actually, logically sound does mean that the conclusion is factually correct, because a logically sound argument is a logically valid argument with true premises.

You're assuming that your premise and your data are correct in the first place.  Remember the concept of GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out.

That's right, but clearly I don't consider zetetic meditations to be garbage, and they are what furnish the premises of my arguments.

I'm not calling the Zetetic method garbage.  The concept of GIGO does not refer to the process, rather to the data.  You can have a flawless logical process, but that process is useless if the data that you feed into it isn't valid or appropriate.

Yes, but the "G" is provided by Zetetic method and then processed using logical syllogism.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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trig

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2010, 07:01:02 AM »
No, on the contrary, I do not think you will find a single illogical argument by a Flat Earther, as we are highly versed in logic. Are you instead trying to accuse our premises of being false? I assure you our arguments themselves are valid.
This seriously made me laugh!  Amazed, meet the greatest troll on the site.  James, here, says he doesn't think you will find a single illogical argument by a Flat Earther, yet he himself has argued that not only is the moon alive, but is eating itself.  He's also argued that the "craters" we see on the moon are actually migrating lifeforms.  He has no proof of this, nor will he do any real research on the subject, but somehow, in the above quote, calims this to be a logical argument.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
James is really playing with words, or doing cheap philosophy, if you prefer. In logic, whether the classical variety (ponendo ponens, tolendo tolens, etc.) or the mathematical one, the proposition is assumed true, There is no room for real life in logic, where absolute truth is impossible to spot.

It is easy to make strong-sounding claims, like:
  • "every one of my grandchildren has been abducted by aliens" (I have no grandchildren),
  • "science is wrong" (scientists are not even pretending to be absolutely right),
  • "GPS without satellites is possible" (it is possible, but astonishingly expensive, therefore not feasible to the scale GPS is installed),
  • "science is just a branch of a branch of philosophy (empiricism), so its findings could be overturned by any other branch of philosophy" (true, but not has not yet happened in any significant way).

In practice, where solid science is applicable the word games with logic are frequently right, but irrelevant.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 07:09:57 AM by trig »

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markjo

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Re: The only legitimate FET - A call to end debate
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 08:17:39 AM »
Actually, logically sound does mean that the conclusion is factually correct, because a logically sound argument is a logically valid argument with true premises.

You're assuming that your premise and your data are correct in the first place.  Remember the concept of GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out.

That's right, but clearly I don't consider zetetic meditations to be garbage, and they are what furnish the premises of my arguments.

I'm not calling the Zetetic method garbage.  The concept of GIGO does not refer to the process, rather to the data.  You can have a flawless logical process, but that process is useless if the data that you feed into it isn't valid or appropriate.

Yes, but the "G" is provided by Zetetic method and then processed using logical syllogism.

???  The Zetetic method provides garbage?  Remember that GIGO stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out and says nothing about the method used to process the data.  GIGO only refers to the quality of the raw data itself.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_In,_Garbage_Out
On two occasions I have been asked,—"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
     
— Charles Babbage, Passages from the Life of a Philosopher[1]
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.