How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth

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Averti

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2010, 06:06:02 AM »
You are failing at biogeography... but nice try  ;D here is a hint, Birds follow set paths when they migrate. The concept of phenology is extremely well understood by real biogeographers... That is, species migration patterns and life actions occur as specific times in the seasons. This is especially poignant for bird migrations. The reasons birds migrate the way they do is based on memory, internal timing and geographic factors, such as leaving one habitat for another so that they arrive just as the resources they use there become available. Resource use is a much greater control on migration then distance ever could be. Birds are extremely vagile and don't actually need to migrate per see, they do so to have more room to nest and have less pressure from resource competition. Distance has almost nothing to do with it, as does altitude, as many neo-tropical migrating birds do NOT migrate at high altitude. Better luck next time ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 06:15:07 AM by Averti »
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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2010, 10:41:27 AM »
While I am glad you aren't going against evolution, I am rather disappointed in your flow of logic.
You need to ask yourself why birds migrate the way they do. Most birds migrate seasonally. As it gets cold, or before it does so, with the onset of winter, the birds will migrate to a cooler southern climate. And as winter ends and that climate gets to be too hot for them, they move back up north for the cooler northern summers. Now, it is a bit more involved than this (namely, when they start migrating, the factors involved in when and where they migrate, the specific routes they take, and the timing between different species migrating to avoid niches being over filled, among others), but that's a good simple summary.

The point is, birds would not migrate east to west, because it has no or little effect on the climate. It's kindergarten logic to know that if you want to be warmer, you go south. Colder, you go north. East and west only have a notable difference in temperature across incredibly vast distances, or in special geographical areas, where west might be, say, Death Valley.


This is a nice image of sea turtle migration. A lot of it does go north and south. But, right there at the bottom, you see a long migration pattern from South America to (presumably) Australia. This would be the longest imaginable path on your Flat Earth model, and would be the most inefficient of any migration pattern. By your own logic, that shouldn't happen, being so incredibly inefficient. Evolution wouldn't allow it. Unless, of course, the distance around the bottom of the map is actually shorter, being at the bottom of a globe.

Now, to the altitude point. Higher altitudes actually prove to be more efficient thanks to tail winds. And the distance is actually not that much greater. We're talking very small scales. In reality, 500 feet up is not that high. Here is a nice quote from Standford.edu:
"Most birds fly below 500 feet except during migration. There is no reason to expend the energy to go higher -- and there may be dangers, such as exposure to higher winds or to the sharp vision of hawks. When migrating, however, birds often do climb to relatively great heights, possibly to avoid dehydration in the warmer air near the ground. Migrating birds in the Caribbean are mostly observed around 10,000 feet, although some are found half and some twice that high. Generally long-distance migrants seem to start out at about 5,000 feet and then progressively climb to around 20,000 feet. Just like jet aircraft, the optimum cruise altitude of migrants increases as their "fuel" is used up and their weight declines. Vultures sometimes rise over 10,000 feet in order to scan larger areas for food (and to watch the behavior of distant vultures for clues to the location of a feast). Perhaps the most impressive altitude record is that of a flock of Whooper Swans which was seen on radar arriving over Northern Ireland on migration and was visually identified by an airline pilot at 29,000 feet. Birds can fly at altitudes that would be impossible for bats, since bird lungs can extract a larger fraction of oxygen from the air than can mammal lungs."
I took the liberty to bold the line you would be most interested in. Remember, this is Stanford University. Unless you have a higher education than an Ivy college, I'm going to go with the ones who have studied this first hand much longer and mroe intensively than you have.

Birds are not the most evolved. In fact, that single statement shows you know extremely little about evolution at all, past the cliche phrases that are over used and misunderstood by many who use them. There is no such thing as "most evolved" or even "More evolved." That implies evolution has a goal, something it's trying to reach. It doesn't. If conditions change, species change. And the ones who evolved to better live in the environment will survive. This is not "more evolved" however, because if the conditions changed again, those "more evolved" organisms can suddenly be shit out of luck. You can't even say our ancestors were "less evolved" than we were, because we probably wouldn't have survived in those conditions as we are now. Besides, every species here on Earth is descendant of the dinosaurs. Species evolve from earlier species, so, all species evolved from that time frame. Just like all of the dinosaurs evolved from the species before them, so on and so forth.

Once again another thread that makes not one point that can't be explained or refuted, and, again, shows a profound misunderstanding of the sciences they are attempting to use.

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2010, 10:46:41 AM »
This thread is insane.

Evolution doesn't PROVE anything.. evolution is an explanation of OBSERVED phenoma. Even if a very plausible theory of evolution could be given for a flat earth, it would be completely irrelevant and relegated to science fiction if a flat earth was not OBSERVED.

Therefore, this entire thread is secondary to the question of the observation of a flat earth. That is where the argument begins and ends. This evolutionary pseudo-science thread is irrelevant.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2010, 02:38:13 AM »
Evolution doesn't PROVE anything.. evolution is an explanation of OBSERVED phenoma. Even if a very plausible theory of evolution could be given for a flat earth, it would be completely irrelevant and relegated to science fiction if a flat earth was not OBSERVED.

...Are you admitting that you would deny proof of a flat earth simply if the proof came from biology?  Can no other field of science vindicate another?

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trig

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2010, 04:51:51 AM »
Evolution doesn't PROVE anything.. evolution is an explanation of OBSERVED phenoma. Even if a very plausible theory of evolution could be given for a flat earth, it would be completely irrelevant and relegated to science fiction if a flat earth was not OBSERVED.

...Are you admitting that you would deny proof of a flat earth simply if the proof came from biology?  Can no other field of science vindicate another?
You are showing your own ignorance about science in general. Science is not about proof, even though this word is sometimes used. Science is about explanation and prediction of observations and experiments, based on models.

Nobody is saying that scientific disciplines cannot help each other. Interdisciplinary work groups are very common. But evolution is not there to find absolute answers to absolute questions. It will not find the fastest organic organism possible, or the longest possible lifespan. As a process, natural selection will tend to produce organisms that are fast enough to survive, with enough longevity to survive, and that migrate in an efficiently enough fashion to survive.

Subjects that are better at migrating, at the expense of other critical abilities, will tend to not survive until childbearing age. There is no evolutionary benefit to reducing the length of a migration by a couple hundred meters, so the most probable evolutionary path for any given migratory bird species will be towards better immunity to some diseases, or better protection against predators, for example, instead of towards the improvement of an already efficient migratory path.

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2010, 12:38:21 PM »
Evolution doesn't PROVE anything.. evolution is an explanation of OBSERVED phenoma. Even if a very plausible theory of evolution could be given for a flat earth, it would be completely irrelevant and relegated to science fiction if a flat earth was not OBSERVED.

...Are you admitting that you would deny proof of a flat earth simply if the proof came from biology?  Can no other field of science vindicate another?
You are showing your own ignorance about science in general. Science is not about proof, even though this word is sometimes used. Science is about explanation and prediction of observations and experiments, based on models.

Nobody is saying that scientific disciplines cannot help each other. Interdisciplinary work groups are very common. But evolution is not there to find absolute answers to absolute questions. It will not find the fastest organic organism possible, or the longest possible lifespan. As a process, natural selection will tend to produce organisms that are fast enough to survive, with enough longevity to survive, and that migrate in an efficiently enough fashion to survive.

Subjects that are better at migrating, at the expense of other critical abilities, will tend to not survive until childbearing age. There is no evolutionary benefit to reducing the length of a migration by a couple hundred meters, so the most probable evolutionary path for any given migratory bird species will be towards better immunity to some diseases, or better protection against predators, for example, instead of towards the improvement of an already efficient migratory path.

Ok quacks, let me put it more simply...

The study of evolution is an OBSERVATIONAL science... in other words, you first observe a flat earth, then you can go back and reverse engineer how it came to be. In other words, you still first prove flatness.. without that, you may as well come up with theories of the earth being a pyramid or a big boat or even entirely imaginary and we live in the matrix, because its about as valid. Without first proving the earth is flat, there is no evolutionary theory that is valid for that. Darwins first step was finding fossils or observing animals... he had to first have facts before evolutionary theory was possible... he didn't dream of unicorns and dragons and say they begot horses and lizards.


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Squirrelninja12345

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2010, 06:44:22 PM »
I don't believe that you can use evolution as a mean to prove that the earth is flat. First of all... you have a huge hole in your reasoning. Assuming that evolution and natural selection are true, leaves this thought with a huge hole. Since science is made up of theories, using a one very debated theory like evolution(although it is accepted) is making your arguement weak. This would be because if the theory of evolution was proved false, your own proof of how the earth is flat will be obselete.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2010, 03:48:32 AM »
I don't believe that you can use evolution as a mean to prove that the earth is flat. First of all... you have a huge hole in your reasoning. Assuming that evolution and natural selection are true, leaves this thought with a huge hole. Since science is made up of theories, using a one very debated theory like evolution(although it is accepted) is making your arguement weak. This would be because if the theory of evolution was proved false, your own proof of how the earth is flat will be obselete.

Evolution by natural selection is true.  Also, your argument makes little sense.  Why propose anything if you fear that it will be one day proven false?

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2010, 05:48:18 AM »
I don't believe that you can use evolution as a mean to prove that the earth is flat. First of all... you have a huge hole in your reasoning. Assuming that evolution and natural selection are true, leaves this thought with a huge hole. Since science is made up of theories, using a one very debated theory like evolution(although it is accepted) is making your arguement weak. This would be because if the theory of evolution was proved false, your own proof of how the earth is flat will be obselete.

I don't care if it supports a round earth or a flat earth. The theory of evolution is not being debated within any reasonable group of people. Evolution is as true as a theory can possibly get within the scientific community. The only people who debate evolution are ignorant people with little knowledge of how it works, there is no way it's going to be proven false very soon.

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #99 on: May 20, 2010, 08:24:42 AM »
I don't believe that you can use evolution as a mean to prove that the earth is flat. First of all... you have a huge hole in your reasoning. Assuming that evolution and natural selection are true, leaves this thought with a huge hole. Since science is made up of theories, using a one very debated theory like evolution(although it is accepted) is making your arguement weak. This would be because if the theory of evolution was proved false, your own proof of how the earth is flat will be obselete.

I don't care if it supports a round earth or a flat earth. The theory of evolution is not being debated within any reasonable group of people. Evolution is as true as a theory can possibly get within the scientific community. The only people who debate evolution are ignorant people with little knowledge of how it works, there is no way it's going to be proven false very soon.

Although I know evolution exists, you have to admit that it is more reasonable to doubt that to doubt that the Earth is round

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2010, 08:50:01 AM »
First off, Pongo, did you simply ignore my post? I would like some explanation, with your reasoning, why there are several migratory paths east/west, one of which stretches from South America to Australia. Because, quite frankly, it goes completely against your reasoning.

Now I will point out that the longest of the migratory paths follows an ocean current, I believe. Making that path comparatively easier to travel, even given it's longer length. However, since you seem to be content with ignoring external factors of birds migratory paths, such as tail winds, I'm assuming you shall do the same for any migratory path. If you don't, then I'll head you off right now, and say you are being blatantly hypocritical. Either drop your point of the inefficiencies of the round Earth bird migratory paths, which has already been discredited several times, or admit to being hypocritical in scientific matters, and thus loose any credibility on such matters.

Secondly, I have another question. Why do you believe in the theory of evolution, and not a round Earth? You say that the conspiracy is everywhere, and that modern science can't be trusted because of it. And yet you're perfectly content to merrily use other scientific theories to support your own hypothesis. No, I will not call flat Earth a theory, it is not deserving of the title. What are your reasons for throwing out the findings of the scientific community, except where it's convenient or agrees with you? This must be addressed, or your scientific integrity is shot, and anything scientific in nature you say will be discredited by your utter lack of integrity of the field.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2010, 10:52:26 PM »
First off, Pongo, did you simply ignore my post? I would like some explanation, with your reasoning, why there are several migratory paths east/west, one of which stretches from South America to Australia. Because, quite frankly, it goes completely against your reasoning.

That's a statistical outlier.


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trig

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2010, 07:09:15 AM »

Ok quacks, let me put it more simply...

The study of evolution is an OBSERVATIONAL science... in other words, you first observe a flat earth, then you can go back and reverse engineer how it came to be. In other words, you still first prove flatness.. without that, you may as well come up with theories of the earth being a pyramid or a big boat or even entirely imaginary and we live in the matrix, because its about as valid. Without first proving the earth is flat, there is no evolutionary theory that is valid for that. Darwins first step was finding fossils or observing animals... he had to first have facts before evolutionary theory was possible... he didn't dream of unicorns and dragons and say they begot horses and lizards.


It seem my comment was not understood. I do not deny that the study of evolution is almost exclusively observational. The first adaptive mutations to different species have been created in a laboratory only recently.  But the main point I am trying to make is that evolution is not the method to produce the absolute best beings in any respect. The contention that birds would find the absolute best migration route is flawed from the moment you use the word "best". Through evolution the different species adapt to an environment as much as necessary to survive.

Birds have found excellent migration routes that combine many aspects related to survival, probably including efficiency of energy use, protection against predators, acceptable climate, and who knows what else.

What they will never find is a mathematical absolute answer to a question that only exists in Pongo's mind. Why would a bird, assuming he can notice the difference, prefer the route that is a few meters shorter, and not the one that makes survival more possible?

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Sliver

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2010, 07:00:08 AM »
As you can see, birds only migrate in a north/south pattern.  Which would look like spokes on a wheel if drawn on a correct flat-earth map.  This is because it is inefficient to fly around the outer rim of a wheel when an easier route is up and down a 'spoke'.
I stopped reading right here because I remembered how you suggested that birds fly east-west at 30,000 to push the airplanes at the proper speed to give the illusion that the flight from Sydney to Buenos Aires doesn't really cover a much larger distance that we think it does.  You really need to keep track of the bull**** you make up.

Here's the post in case you wish to deny making it.

Because they navigate earth every single day with a Round Earth model, and it works. It's indisputable. We would either hear about the mistakes or you have to at least concede that the Flat Earth model requires that most pilots and air traffic controllers be in on the conspiracy.

Birds like to fly in the wake of fast-moving vessels, often close enough to nudge the vessel itself. The collective force of a lot of birds all nudging the vessel causes it to move faster.

This is one account for why travel times appear distorted.  No need to bring pilots and air traffic controllers into the fold.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 07:02:33 AM by Sliver »

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IamTHErealGOD

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2010, 01:42:12 PM »
Complete load of tosh! I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that the Earth is flat but your preposterous views on "natural selection" astound me. The message I read from your babbling is that you are ready to believe that your grandmother was a bloody ape but not that God placed us on his flat Earth!

It really does infuriate me how blithering fools such as yourself can't accept the truth and won't commit to the only logical explanation of the shape of the Earth.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2010, 01:57:43 PM »
Complete load of tosh! I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that the Earth is flat but your preposterous views on "natural selection" astound me. The message I read from your babbling is that you are ready to believe that your grandmother was a bloody ape but not that God placed us on his flat Earth!

It really does infuriate me how blithering fools such as yourself can't accept the truth and won't commit to the only logical explanation of the shape of the Earth.

Your post shows that you have little or no understanding of the theory of evolution.

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Atom Man

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2010, 06:31:37 AM »
I have a New Theory. Birds don't migrate at all. The apparent perception of migration is perpetuated by the NASA conspiracy to cover the fact that the poles change from center to rim with the change in seasons. Obviously the birds fly up (1 dimension) as defined by efficient creation, the land masses move further apart in 2 dimensions while it folds in the 4th dimension.

It's a good thing that I don't work for Pfizer because I can't even swallow this one! At least it was an attempt to correlate the different "theories" together.
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Sliver

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2010, 01:43:36 PM »
Complete load of tosh! I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that the Earth is flat but your preposterous views on "natural selection" astound me. The message I read from your babbling is that you are ready to believe that your grandmother was a bloody ape but not that God placed us on his flat Earth!

It really does infuriate me how blithering fools such as yourself can't accept the truth and won't commit to the only logical explanation of the shape of the Earth.

Your post shows that you have little or no understanding of the theory of evolution.


And your post shows how you like to totally avoid posters who have made you look really stupid by simply putting one of you other posts into this thread.  I'm curious how your claims that birds can fly at 30,000ft and at speeds in excess of 550mph fit into your understanding of evolution?


Especially since the fastest flying bird is the Peregrine Falcon...
Quote
Fastest Flying Bird

The peregrine falcon (Falco peregrinus) is the fastest living creature, reaching speeds of at least 124 mph and possibly as much as 168 mph when swooping from great heights during territorial displays or while catching pry birds in midair.

While the highest flying birds, are these guys
Quote
Highest-Flying Birds

A Ruppell’s vulture (gyps rueppellii) collided with a commercial aircraft over Abidjan, Ivory Coast, at an altitude of 37,000 feet in November 1973. The impact damaged one of the aircraft’s engines, but the plane landed safely. The species is rarely seen above 20,000 feet.

In 1967, about 30 whooper swans (Cygnus were spotted at an altitude of just over 27,000 feet by an airline pilot over the Western Isles, UK. They were flying from Iceland to Loch Foyle on the Northern Ireland/republic Ireland border. Their altitude was confirmed by air traffic control.[/url]

Notice how they are not the same birds?  You'll also notice that the high fliers don't live where your theory about them pushing planes needs them to, which is right beside every airport in the southern hemisphere.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 01:49:59 PM by Sliver »

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #109 on: May 26, 2010, 01:50:44 AM »
Do all planes takeoff and land at speeds in excess of 550 MPH?

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Sliver

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #110 on: May 26, 2010, 06:42:35 PM »
Do all planes takeoff and land at speeds in excess of 550 MPH?
No, they don't.  are you trying to segue into saying that the birds in your theory only push the planes during take off?  Because if you are than you're contradicting to earlier claim that birds, south of the equator only, push planes to make them go fast enough to disguise flight times.  Not to mention that there is no documentation of this happening on the level you suggested.

Come on, Pongo, surely you're a better troll than that!

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Tech

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #111 on: May 26, 2010, 06:51:49 PM »
Yea Evolution is not something you use to predict other things ie; that the Earth is flat. It's totally observational. We see that birds fly the way we do and try to come up with the reason why. Then we test that hypothesis of why fly that way. Right now, it is a hypothesis that the reason birds migrate the way they do is because the earth is flat. You now have to design an experiment isolating the X variable and record the Y variable, for it to even approach being a valid statement.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #112 on: May 26, 2010, 11:34:20 PM »
Yea Evolution is not something you use to predict other things ie; that the Earth is flat. It's totally observational.

These two statements are demonstrably false.

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Tech

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #113 on: May 27, 2010, 02:05:45 AM »
Yea Evolution is not something you use to predict other things ie; that the Earth is flat. It's totally observational.

These two statements are demonstrably false.

No, we observe life, observe life's characteristics and genes, and using those observations, try to explain them with evolution. But we don't predict future evolution, life is too complicated a system to do that. Which is why your OP is not even evidence that the earth is flat.

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trig

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #114 on: May 27, 2010, 02:10:02 AM »
Yea Evolution is not something you use to predict other things ie; that the Earth is flat. It's totally observational.

These two statements are demonstrably false.
This is really beside the point. You are right in the fact that studies in Evolution may give results that are useful to other disciplines, and there are some experiments that have given direct evidence to the evolution from one species to another in bacteria.

But this is totally unrelated to the claim that birds would detect the fact that their migration at lower heights would be shorter by a few hundred meters. This totally unsound hypothesis has already been demolished in this thread.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #115 on: May 27, 2010, 02:34:59 AM »
Yea Evolution is not something you use to predict other things ie; that the Earth is flat. It's totally observational.

These two statements are demonstrably false.

No, we observe life, observe life's characteristics and genes, and using those observations, try to explain them with evolution. But we don't predict future evolution, life is too complicated a system to do that. Which is why your OP is not even evidence that the earth is flat.

The length of the hollows of flowers has been used to predict the discovery of life in the area with long nectar extraction methods.

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Sliver

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #116 on: May 27, 2010, 04:55:46 AM »
Now that's how you troll, Pongo.  Ignore the posts that make you look bad, and go after a new target.

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vhu9644

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #117 on: June 01, 2010, 06:02:36 PM »
i think there are other factors that birds fly high list:

avoid becoming prey
avoid obstacles
tell aircraft companies that flying higher doesnt equal better mileage
if they become tired, they can glide the rest of the way down,
see more
i think it is easier to feel the magnetic field higher up
can swoop down to catch prey in sudden strikes, due to accleration from gravity (i believe a certain eagle does that)

and earth is round becuase:
i see a horizon LINE, if it was flat, i see a horizon POINT
it has a circular shadow
it is a planet and must have hydrostatic equilibrium
how do we have days then, if earth orbits the sun and is flat?
space picture shows curviture
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markjo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #118 on: June 01, 2010, 06:14:07 PM »
tell aircraft companies that flying higher doesnt equal better mileage
Actually, it does.  Less drag due to less dense air means better mileage.
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Sliver

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #119 on: June 01, 2010, 07:22:35 PM »
tell aircraft companies that flying higher doesnt equal better mileage
Actually, it does.  Less drag due to less dense air means better mileage.
I think that was his point.