Submarine Navigation?

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Submarine Navigation?
« on: May 10, 2010, 03:04:14 AM »
How do submarines navigate on the FE model?

In the RE model, one method that submarines employ is the use of dead reckoning to navigate their way around. Submarines also utilise bottom contour mapping techniques.

If the model of the earth is incorrect, or unkown, then how is it that submarines were able to navigate reasonably well using these methods?

Surely if the model of the earth is unkown these techniques could never have worked? Submarines would be running aground all the time, or be way off from there intended destinations.

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Pongo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2010, 03:10:49 AM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  They will guide you correctly if you also assume that that earth is round.  A gross oversimplification -- but a good example to convey the idea -- is if a mapmaker made all her maps with south and north reversed, you would be fine navigating by her maps if you also reversed your north/south directions.

I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.

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Catchpa

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 05:37:54 AM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  They will guide you correctly if you also assume that that earth is round.  A gross oversimplification -- but a good example to convey the idea -- is if a mapmaker made all her maps with south and north reversed, you would be fine navigating by her maps if you also reversed your north/south directions.

I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.

You mean like looking at a map upside-down? Yeah, that's not at all a good comparison.
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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 05:39:37 AM »
Oh so I see. A map is made on the assumption the world is round. Submarines follow this map on that assumption. Submarines are able to navigate succesfully using this system.

Therefore this system is working. Therefore this system is correct therefore you agree that the correct model for the earth is round.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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Sliver

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 06:02:50 AM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  They will guide you correctly if you also assume that that earth is round.  A gross oversimplification -- but a good example to convey the idea -- is if a mapmaker made all her maps with south and north reversed, you would be fine navigating by her maps if you also reversed your north/south directions.

I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.
It doesn't work like that.  You can't make an inaccurate map work just by believing the same thing as the person who made it.  If that were so, than I could draw a map where I assume that Los Angeles is only 25 miles from New York City, and as long as someone else assumed the same thing, then it would work. 

Assumptions do not make maps work.  Measured data, on the other hand, does.  This is why FE'ers don't have a map.  They have no measured data, and that is because they are too lazy to go get the data.

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The Question1

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 02:15:09 PM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.
Also,if it assumes the earth is round,and it works,it IS round.
Assuming that you can MAKE a map work is flat out wrong.If i made a map from mybuilding to another,and assuming it is 6 feet apart(which they are not) i can't MAKE it work.

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flyingmonkey

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 01:19:40 AM »
Especially because you can use the sonar map to travel from anywhere to any point, and end up exactly in the right place.

It wouldn't work like that if the map assumed the wrong shape.

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Pongo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 01:38:45 AM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Also, for everyone calling foul with the reversible north/south parallel I drew, here is a link that will clear things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 02:13:42 AM »
Ok If the earth is flat, then why does round the round earth model work?

Your analogy was incorrect as has been demonstrated above.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 04:41:26 AM »
Ok If the earth is flat, then why does round the round earth model work?

Your analogy was incorrect as has been demonstrated above.

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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markjo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 05:03:15 AM »
Obviously it does, otherwise submarines (not to mention surface ships) wouldn't be able to navigate the oceans using RE based maps.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Catchpa

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 06:43:36 AM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Circle argument. "The earth is flat because the earth is flat"
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2010, 09:15:33 AM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Also, for everyone calling foul with the reversible north/south parallel I drew, here is a link that will clear things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy


they are saying your analogy isnt right because it uses the same models, but different notation; not different models.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 10:07:29 AM by brathearon »

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spanner34.5

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 10:46:09 AM »
Is anyone certain that submarines even exist?
My I.Q. is 85. Or was it 58?

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markjo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2010, 03:35:56 PM »
Is anyone certain that submarines even exist?

I would think that submariners would know for sure.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

The Question1

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2010, 03:56:53 PM »
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Also, for everyone calling foul with the reversible north/south parallel I drew, here is a link that will clear things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

Thats not an explanation,thats you stating something that hasn't been proven as fact.
Also,your analogy clearly doesn't work,as reversing the map does not involve changing the distances of between landmasses and such.

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Crustinator

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2010, 03:58:47 PM »
I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.

Also diesel fuel is programmed by The Conspiracy to match the RE map so that you will not notice any fuel variation while traversing the globe.

Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 01:03:09 AM »

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 02:54:09 AM »

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

It just appears to work.  Just as submarines appear to be capable of achieving all kinds of underwater feats.  Of course, submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time, if at all in most cases, and when they do submerge, they must rely on their periscope to stay clear of obstacles.  The reason these things don't crash is simply because they can see ahead, much like the boats on the surface.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Pongo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 04:25:14 AM »

Also,your analogy clearly doesn't work,as reversing the map does not involve changing the distances of between landmasses and such.

That's why I prequalified it as a gross oversimplifacation. In the future please try to read more carefully.

Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2010, 05:54:51 AM »

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

It just appears to work.  Just as submarines appear to be capable of achieving all kinds of underwater feats.  Of course, submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time, if at all in most cases, and when they do submerge, they must rely on their periscope to stay clear of obstacles.  The reason these things don't crash is simply because they can see ahead, much like the boats on the surface.

Do you ever get outside? Have you ever read a book? Do you live in a basement? Your lack of general knowledge is astounding.

What evidence do you have that indicates submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time?

Are you aware that if a submarine rises to persicope depth in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, they will see absolutely nothing, but water on all fronts? So how could they navigate using a persicope with no points of reference?

Nuclear submarines are able to remain submerged for months. Their only limiting factor is food for the submariners aboard. They can manufacture water and oxyegn while underwater.

Submarines only go to persicope depth when they are in friendly waters, as a submarine becomes very visible at periscope depth. Modern day radar is able to detect a persicope. Hence the submarine will only rise to persicope depth when it knows it is within friendly waters. This is a CRITICALLY important fact about submarines.

How do they know when they are in friendly waters? Through use of dead reckoning based on maps developed from the round earth model.

The US Navy of the cold war would have loved for you to have been the planner for the Russian Navy. You wouldn't have believed any of the capabilities that US submarines possessed, hence you wouldn't have built your own submarines.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2010, 07:21:32 AM »

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

It just appears to work.  Just as submarines appear to be capable of achieving all kinds of underwater feats.  Of course, submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time, if at all in most cases, and when they do submerge, they must rely on their periscope to stay clear of obstacles.  The reason these things don't crash is simply because they can see ahead, much like the boats on the surface.

Do you ever get outside? Have you ever read a book? Do you live in a basement? Your lack of general knowledge is astounding.

What evidence do you have that indicates submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time?

Are you aware that if a submarine rises to persicope depth in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, they will see absolutely nothing, but water on all fronts? So how could they navigate using a persicope with no points of reference?

Nuclear submarines are able to remain submerged for months. Their only limiting factor is food for the submariners aboard. They can manufacture water and oxyegn while underwater.

Submarines only go to persicope depth when they are in friendly waters, as a submarine becomes very visible at periscope depth. Modern day radar is able to detect a persicope. Hence the submarine will only rise to persicope depth when it knows it is within friendly waters. This is a CRITICALLY important fact about submarines.

How do they know when they are in friendly waters? Through use of dead reckoning based on maps developed from the round earth model.

The US Navy of the cold war would have loved for you to have been the planner for the Russian Navy. You wouldn't have believed any of the capabilities that US submarines possessed, hence you wouldn't have built your own submarines.

The whole idea of the cold war was to continue to instigate propaganda into believing one country was technologically superior.  This is part of the reason the moon landings were faked.    Part of the propaganda was gettting people to believe nuclear submarines and the like existed.  Put simply they don't and the submarines you see are not capable of carrying out the feats you suggest. 

And yes I do get outside and I do read books.  For someone like yourself I would recommend Total Cold War by Kenneth Osgood.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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markjo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2010, 12:37:28 PM »
And yes I do get outside and I do read books.  For someone like yourself I would recommend Total Cold War by Kenneth Osgood.

And I would recommend Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage by Sherry Sontag.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1891620088/artbell00
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2010, 01:32:07 PM »
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?

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The Question1

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2010, 04:55:18 PM »

Also,your analogy clearly doesn't work,as reversing the map does not involve changing the distances of between landmasses and such.

That's why I prequalified it as a gross oversimplifacation. In the future please try to read more carefully.
Then you still have not clearly explained your point as to how making a map work is possible.

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Pongo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2010, 11:10:53 PM »
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.

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Catchpa

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2010, 05:01:06 AM »
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.

I'm sure you know how to get submarine into it's own room then, when it was clearly in the water once they first saw and entered it?
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2010, 10:03:06 AM »
Making port in a different location then your launch site would prove to be very difficult if all sub missions are faked.

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markjo

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2010, 12:34:00 PM »
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.

You're joking, right?  First of all, subs don't submerge until they are well out to sea.  Secondly, it's rather hard to hide all the simulator equipment in an outdoor harbor.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

flyingmonkey

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Re: Submarine Navigation?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2010, 05:50:44 PM »
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.


Are you saying if I took a simulator flight across countries, I would actually step out in the country I just flew to on the simulator?

Holy jesus, is this teleportation?