Poll

Which map do you agree with the most?

Flat Earth Map #1
5 (38.5%)
Flat Earth Map #2
2 (15.4%)
levee's new map
6 (46.2%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With

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General Disarray

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2010, 01:44:00 PM »
My god its like arguing with a brick wall.

I just explained why it would be necessary to fly that fast. Using the only information available, my eyeballs, and a ruler, I estimated the distance the plane would have to travel to go from Hawaii to Australia on map #2. That distance would take 41 hours to fly in a 767 at its top speed, yet it consistently takes about 10 hours in the real world.

What's so hard to understand about that, honestly?
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2010, 01:56:05 PM »
Yeah I just want to know how it might be possible for planes to consistently make 40 hour trips in 10 hours. Please help me to understand.


My point is that you need to show it would take 40 hours on that map. I don't believe it would.

Wilmore is seen here employing Bishop's Razor (a denial of reality akin to "no, I think you're wrong and that's that") rather than accepting that GD has shown it would take 40 hours by virtue of very simple mathematics. If Wilmore wishes to dispute GD's claim, he is disputing the very nature of the mathematical calculations used.
The phrase "you need to show it would take 40 hours on that map" is not only something that's already been done but is also an attempt by Wilmore to deflect the question back on the questioner, a similar tactic to that which I described him commonly using which is to throw in another question to deflect a critique.

And let's hear no more "burden of proof" debate, it's a semantic argument and utterly meaningless.
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General Disarray

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2010, 02:14:14 PM »
Let me put it this way. for the purposes of my calculation, I only made 3 assumptions:

1) Map #2 is an accurate representation of how the Earth looks.
2) The diameter of Earth is 24,900 miles.
3) The top flight speed of a Boeing 767 is 568 MPH

Which of those assumptions are wrong, and for what reasons?
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Catchpa

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2010, 03:37:09 PM »
Again Wilmore, without a scale, you can't show anything on that map. Please quit acting as if your map has some quantifiable basis in which it can be tested against.


I'm not "acting" like anything. He claimed he had disproved that model. In fact, he hasn't even presented evidence against it.


Oh right, the burden of proof is on me. How silly of me.

Because the claim that a 767 can't go faster than 600 mph is so obviously more fantastic than the claim that it could go over 2000 mph.


You made the claim that the map was disproven, so yes, the burden of proof is on you.


Furthermore, I'm not claiming 747s can go faster than 2,000mph. I'm just not sure they'd need to.

Even if the burden of proof is not on you, do you even have any proof for it?

Again, why this map and not that map?
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2010, 04:25:32 PM »
My god its like arguing with a brick wall.

I just explained why it would be necessary to fly that fast. Using the only information available, my eyeballs, and a ruler, I estimated the distance the plane would have to travel to go from Hawaii to Australia on map #2. That distance would take 41 hours to fly in a 767 at its top speed, yet it consistently takes about 10 hours in the real world.

What's so hard to understand about that, honestly?


So tell me, have you measured the actual course/distance of an aircraft, and compared it with that map, or did you just pull a bunch of numbers out of your head? I'm not interested in what might happen. If you want to 'disprove' the map, you need actual data regarding distance/route speed and time. At the moment you have only the latter, and only if we assume that the flight will actually take that long.


Wilmore is seen here employing Bishop's Razor (a denial of reality akin to "no, I think you're wrong and that's that") rather than accepting that GD has shown it would take 40 hours by virtue of very simple mathematics. If Wilmore wishes to dispute GD's claim, he is disputing the very nature of the mathematical calculations used.
The phrase "you need to show it would take 40 hours on that map" is not only something that's already been done but is also an attempt by Wilmore to deflect the question back on the questioner, a similar tactic to that which I described him commonly using which is to throw in another question to deflect a critique.

And let's hear no more "burden of proof" debate, it's a semantic argument and utterly meaningless.


TD is seen here preaching about 'very simple mathematics', whilst at the same time talking out of his ass. The fact that GD has not provided any figures regarding distance alone shows that he has not "shown it would take 40 hours by virtue of very simple mathematics". Please tell me where these calculations are? Because they're not in this thread.


What's more, debates about theoretical flights are totally academic. Theoretical flights cannot disprove a given model. If they could, I could invent a magical flight whereby a 747 went from New York to London in 17 minutes, and claim to have disproven RET. You need actual data, unless you want to throw empiricism out the window.
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General Disarray

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2010, 04:36:59 PM »
My god its like arguing with a brick wall.

I just explained why it would be necessary to fly that fast. Using the only information available, my eyeballs, and a ruler, I estimated the distance the plane would have to travel to go from Hawaii to Australia on map #2. That distance would take 41 hours to fly in a 767 at its top speed, yet it consistently takes about 10 hours in the real world.

What's so hard to understand about that, honestly?


So tell me, have you measured the actual course/distance of an aircraft, and compared it with that map, or did you just pull a bunch of numbers out of your head? I'm not interested in what might happen. If you want to 'disprove' the map, you need actual data regarding distance/route speed and time. At the moment you have only the latter, and only if we assume that the flight will actually take that long.


First off, the route is not important, the distance is.

The data I have is the flight time of a commercial airliner on a trip from Hawaii to Australia, and the maximum possible speed of that airliner.

In order for the plane to make the trips it does on a world that looks like map #2, it would have to:
a) fly over 2000 MPH
b) the world would have to be about 1/4 the diameter listed in the FAQ.
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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2010, 04:42:18 PM »
Basic algebra for Wilmore.  Speed = distance/time

If we know any two of these, we can find the third.  If we know the speed, we can try out different distances and get different lengths of time passed.  If we know the distance and time we can work out the speed of travel.  Presuming the map is at least roughly to scale, that's all he's done.  If you honestly have trouble with this then I'd be surprised if you made it through junior high.

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General Disarray

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2010, 04:45:18 PM »
You want my calculations? Here they are:

I measured the diameter of map #2 on my screen to be 16 cm. I measured the distance from Hawaii to Australia to be a bit under 15 cm, again on that same map on my screen. The diameter of the earth from the FAQ is 24900 miles.

To get the distance from Hawaii to Australia in miles:

16cm/24900 miles = 15cm/x miles, so x = (15/16)*24900 miles = 23344 miles.

To get the time it would take a jet flying at 568 m/hr:

23344 m / (568 m/hr) = 41.10 hours

Simple enough, now point out where I am wrong.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2010, 05:14:07 PM »
First off, the route is not important, the distance is.

The data I have is the flight time of a commercial airliner on a trip from Hawaii to Australia, and the maximum possible speed of that airliner.

In order for the plane to make the trips it does on a world that looks like map #2, it would have to:
a) fly over 2000 MPH
b) the world would have to be about 1/4 the diameter listed in the FAQ.


Actually, the route is important, because a) winds can effect speeds, and b) if you're measuring things 'as the crow flies' with a ruler, you may not be accurately calculating the distance travelled on a RE map.


Basic algebra for Wilmore.  Speed = distance/time

If we know any two of these, we can find the third.  If we know the speed, we can try out different distances and get different lengths of time passed.  If we know the distance and time we can work out the speed of travel.  Presuming the map is at least roughly to scale, that's all he's done.  If you honestly have trouble with this then I'd be surprised if you made it through junior high.


Yes, and up until now we had no idea what figures he was using for distance. I don't have trouble with algebra, I'm just not psychic.


You want my calculations? Here they are:

I measured the diameter of map #2 on my screen to be 16 cm. I measured the distance from Hawaii to Australia to be a bit under 15 cm, again on that same map on my screen. The diameter of the earth from the FAQ is 24900 miles.

To get the distance from Hawaii to Australia in miles:

16cm/24900 miles = 15cm/x miles, so x = (15/16)*24900 miles = 23344 miles.

To get the time it would take a jet flying at 568 m/hr:

23344 m / (568 m/hr) = 41.10 hours

Simple enough, now point out where I am wrong.


First of all, the figure given in the FAQ refers exclusively to map 1. I'm pretty sure the diameter in the second model is smaller, though it has never been worked out. Secondly, your 'ruler routes' are not the routes that would actually be taken.


Finally, you need to understand something, which is that only empirical data matters. The thing is, I don't even think Hawaii and Australia are as depicted on that map. I find it hard to believe that Australia is so wildly distorted, or that Hawaii could be so far away from Japan. However, I'm not going to make any positive claims about it without empirical data. I don't have that, so I keep my mouth shut about it.


That map is essentially used as a rough guide to communicate the concept of a FE with Antarctica as a distinct continent rather than the rim continent, and as it's just a projection based of RE maps, undoubtedly contains many errors. But people can't just go around claiming to have proven this or that based on theoretical planes and boats. We need real data, not MS paint scribbles.
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General Disarray

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2010, 05:34:02 PM »


No, the route is not important, because the route I calculated is the shortest possible route. Any real route would be much longer. And I am not focusing on proving RE here, just disproving this particular FE map. And a tailwind cannot possibly add over 1500 mph to an airplane's speed, which would be what is required to make the trip on time.

All I claimed was that using the map as shown, the route from Hawaii to Australia by 767 would have to be at the very least 41 hours, and that any route that did not fly over land (so as to continue deceiving the passengers) would have to be many hours longer than that.

And you said:

Quote
I find it hard to believe that Australia is so wildly distorted, or that Hawaii could be so far away from Japan.

so you understand the problems with all the FE maps that have been worked out so far. Show me a flat map which accurately represents the world and agrees with flight times, and you have just made a major step towards proving FE.
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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2010, 07:18:05 PM »
...your 'ruler routes' are not the routes that would actually be taken.

On a flat Earth map, yes, a straight line would be the basic path taken.  Since there hasn't been a single flat Earth map able to agree with observed travel distance, the "it must be a conspiracy" thing has to come up to cling to the notion.

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Sliver

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Re: Which Map Do Most FE'ers Agree With
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2010, 08:20:03 PM »
So we've got eight votes and only three FE'ers saying which map they believe is correct.  Each one picked a different map, by the way.  So who are the other voters?

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flyingmonkey

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