Immigration/Border Policies (Arizona Bill)

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on May 04, 2010, 06:46:14 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 04, 2010, 04:43:05 PM

Thanks for proving my point dumbass.  Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by being here.  If they are involved in an additional crime then the AZ police are now allowed to ask them for proof of being here legally. 

I don't have any problem with that, and I don't think that anyone else here does, either.  The problem that I think most people have is that it allows cops to ask for proof of citizenship/legal residence with reasonable suspicion.  How can one reasonably suspect that a person is an illegal immigrant just by looking at them?

This.

Also Wardogg, I was responding to your argument earlier that the constitution only applies to citizens.  Not whether or not police can determine sombodies legal status after a lawfully arrest.  The problem here is giving the police the power to demand proof of citizenship (ie provide identification) with only a reasonable suspicion, where the 4th amendment requires a warrant before issuing a demand. Which applies to citizens and non citizens alike.

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

Section one under the provisions: 

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions: 

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Meh, honestly im too tired to go pouring over the document.  I will return tomorrow.

Section one under the provisions:  

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest for another crime, you will get no argument from me there because that does warrant a search of their person.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Where did you get this quote, provide your evidence or be accused of fabricating.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 04, 2010, 08:09:25 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions: 

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Meh, honestly im too tired to go pouring over the document.  I will return tomorrow.

From the sound of it I presumed you already read it.  Considering you claimed that it did no such thing.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions:  

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest for another crime, you will get no argument from me there because that does warrant a search of their person.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Where did you get this quote, provide your evidence or be accused of fabricating.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:10:49 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 04, 2010, 08:09:25 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions: 

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Meh, honestly im too tired to go pouring over the document.  I will return tomorrow.

From the sound of it I presumed you already read it.  Considering you claimed that it did no such thing.

I did doesnt mean i memorized it.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 04, 2010, 08:11:04 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions:  

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest for another crime, you will get no argument from me there because that does warrant a search of their person.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Where did you get this quote, provide your evidence or be accused of fabricating.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/s.1070pshs.doc.htm

My criminal law professor and constitutional law professor agree.  The whole idea of the rights laid out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights is that they are natural rights, bestowed by God on all human beings.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:12:47 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 04, 2010, 08:11:04 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions:  

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest for another crime, you will get no argument from me there because that does warrant a search of their person.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Where did you get this quote, provide your evidence or be accused of fabricating.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/s.1070pshs.doc.htm

The date at the bottom says January, you do know the bill was revised about a week ago right?

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 04, 2010, 08:31:30 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:12:47 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 04, 2010, 08:11:04 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions:  

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest for another crime, you will get no argument from me there because that does warrant a search of their person.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Where did you get this quote, provide your evidence or be accused of fabricating.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/s.1070pshs.doc.htm

The date at the bottom says January, you do know the bill was revised about a week ago right?

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 02:41:03 AM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 04, 2010, 08:31:30 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:12:47 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 04, 2010, 08:11:04 PM

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 04, 2010, 08:06:30 PM

Section one under the provisions:  

Quote

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

That does not say anything about there having to be a lawfull arrest first.  It requires the law enforcement officer to attempt to determine the legal status of the person during legitimate contact.  How else would you determine that unless you were to ask for their identification?  Demanding that would first require either a lawfull arrest, or a warrant.

If reasonable suspicion exists, a warrant should be obtained to search their person.  The exception is if there is a lawfull arrest for another crime, you will get no argument from me there because that does warrant a search of their person.  The language of this law appears to bypass that.

Where did you get this quote, provide your evidence or be accused of fabricating.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/s.1070pshs.doc.htm

The date at the bottom says January, you do know the bill was revised about a week ago right?

The amendments proposed have not been passed yet to my knowledge.  The link I provided is the current law.

Grapevine = his mom. 

That's not the current law from what I heard through the grapevine.

Grapevine = other message boards

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 12:22:02 PM

That's not the current law from what I heard through the grapevine.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 04:35:40 PM

Grapevine = other message boards

So, you readily accept what is written on other message boards, but not Arizona's legislative website? wat.

Well, Marcus posted today, so that should trump what you read on other message boards.

You have a source from a message board more credible than Arizona's Legislature website?

Quote from: Sean on May 05, 2010, 04:44:24 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 12:22:02 PM

That's not the current law from what I heard through the grapevine.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 04:35:40 PM

Grapevine = other message boards

So, you readily accept what is written on other message boards, but not Arizona's legislative website? wat.

That page was written in January I have no way to dispute him.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 04:50:48 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 05, 2010, 04:44:24 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 12:22:02 PM

That's not the current law from what I heard through the grapevine.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 05, 2010, 04:35:40 PM

Grapevine = other message boards

So, you readily accept what is written on other message boards, but not Arizona's legislative website? wat.

That page was written in January I have no way to dispute him.

Then why did you try to unless you had evidence?