Immigration/Border Policies (Arizona Bill)

Why do you use a nirvana avatar but accuse others of being faggots?

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 01, 2010, 08:51:24 PM

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 08:47:28 PM

I really don't like the idea of there being a law saying i need to carry my id with me. I have it when I am driving but like when I go rock climbing I leave my wallet at home so nothing happens to it. It would be irritating to be arrested for not having id on me.

As long as you are not in the process of committing a crime you wouldn't be ID'd.

if you are committing a crime I don't mind you needing to have an id on you to make sure the ticket is going to the right person. but making a law saying you need to have an ID on you at all times seems a little extreme.

There needs to be both a lack of ID and probable cause to be detained. As I said earlier, an example of probable cause would be the lack of an ability to speak English.

So, how does the cop find out the person can't speak English in the first place?  Where's the "probable cause" for finding that information out?  You're skipping a step when you say lack of ID and inability to speak English are probable causes. 

Actually, what they need is reasonable suspicion, not probable cause.  And it won't be defined until a precedent is set via the courts.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on May 01, 2010, 10:49:44 PM

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 01, 2010, 08:51:24 PM

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 08:47:28 PM

I really don't like the idea of there being a law saying i need to carry my id with me. I have it when I am driving but like when I go rock climbing I leave my wallet at home so nothing happens to it. It would be irritating to be arrested for not having id on me.

As long as you are not in the process of committing a crime you wouldn't be ID'd.

if you are committing a crime I don't mind you needing to have an id on you to make sure the ticket is going to the right person. but making a law saying you need to have an ID on you at all times seems a little extreme.

There needs to be both a lack of ID and probable cause to be detained. As I said earlier, an example of probable cause would be the lack of an ability to speak English.

So, how does the cop find out the person can't speak English in the first place?  Where's the "probable cause" for finding that information out?  You're skipping a step when you say lack of ID and inability to speak English are probable causes.  

I'm not saying lack of ID is a probable cause. Its the ID + reasonable suspicion  (thank you Saddam) that gets you.

No ID+ No RS = Your all good.
No ID + RS = No good
ID + No RS = Still ok.
ID+ RS = Preferably not but still fine.

But you're saying not being able to speak English is reasonable suspicion, and I"m saying that isn't good enough. 

The law has been amended already.  I think they have to be committing a crime now, which I don't have a problem with.  If a person gets caught committing a crime, they're going to have to identify themselves. 

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 01, 2010, 08:51:24 PM

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 08:47:28 PM

I really don't like the idea of there being a law saying i need to carry my id with me. I have it when I am driving but like when I go rock climbing I leave my wallet at home so nothing happens to it. It would be irritating to be arrested for not having id on me.

As long as you are not in the process of committing a crime you wouldn't be ID'd.

if you are committing a crime I don't mind you needing to have an id on you to make sure the ticket is going to the right person. but making a law saying you need to have an ID on you at all times seems a little extreme.

There needs to be both a lack of ID and probable cause to be detained. As I said earlier, an example of probable cause would be the lack of an ability to speak English.

You don't seem to understand, our constitution prohibits the government to search or demand "papers" or identification unless there is probable cause of a crime being commited or a warrant.  Race, and/or launguage are not probable cause of a crime.

But you're saying not being able to speak English is reasonable suspicion, and I"m saying that isn't good enough. 

The law has been amended already.  I think they have to be committing a crime now, which I don't have a problem with.  If a person gets caught committing a crime, they're going to have to identify themselves. 

I don't care if they're the most peaceful person in the world, if they're here illegally, THEY'RE STILL BREAKING THE LAW!!!

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on May 02, 2010, 04:29:51 PM

But you're saying not being able to speak English is reasonable suspicion, and I"m saying that isn't good enough. 

The law has been amended already.  I think they have to be committing a crime now, which I don't have a problem with.  If a person gets caught committing a crime, they're going to have to identify themselves. 

I don't care if they're the most peaceful person in the world, if they're here illegally, THEY'RE STILL BREAKING THE LAW!!!

I don't care how much you hate for immigrants to seek a life in the US., if the law is unconstitutional, THEN THAT LAW IS INVALID.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on May 01, 2010, 10:49:44 PM

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 09:57:33 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 01, 2010, 08:51:24 PM

Quote from: optimisticcynic on May 01, 2010, 08:47:28 PM

I really don't like the idea of there being a law saying i need to carry my id with me. I have it when I am driving but like when I go rock climbing I leave my wallet at home so nothing happens to it. It would be irritating to be arrested for not having id on me.

As long as you are not in the process of committing a crime you wouldn't be ID'd.

if you are committing a crime I don't mind you needing to have an id on you to make sure the ticket is going to the right person. but making a law saying you need to have an ID on you at all times seems a little extreme.

There needs to be both a lack of ID and probable cause to be detained. As I said earlier, an example of probable cause would be the lack of an ability to speak English.

You don't seem to understand, our constitution prohibits the government to search or demand "papers" or identification unless there is probable cause of a crime being commited or a warrant.  Race, and/or launguage are not probable cause of a crime.

That's true.  Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, cops can ask someone to identify themselves with reasonable suspicion, but not for official documentation.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 02, 2010, 04:56:53 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on May 02, 2010, 04:29:51 PM

But you're saying not being able to speak English is reasonable suspicion, and I"m saying that isn't good enough. 

The law has been amended already.  I think they have to be committing a crime now, which I don't have a problem with.  If a person gets caught committing a crime, they're going to have to identify themselves. 

I don't care if they're the most peaceful person in the world, if they're here illegally, THEY'RE STILL BREAKING THE LAW!!!

I don't care how much you hate for immigrants to seek a life in the US., if the law is unconstitutional, THEN THAT LAW IS INVALID.

I don't care about people moving to the USA as long as they do it legally. Quit defending illegal immigrants. BTW, my comment wasn't about the law, my comment was about them being here in general.

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

No, you're being stupid and fighting for no reason. The facts have been layed out to where what y'all are claiming are wrong but you still cry foul. Get on with your life. If you have a driver's license you're fine. Quit being so secretive, what do you have to hide if you're not a illegal immigrant? Dope?

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 06:33:08 PM

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

No, you're being stupid and fighting for no reason. The facts have been layed out to where what y'all are claiming are wrong but you still cry foul. Get on with your life. If you have a driver's license you're fine. Quit being so secretive, what do you have to hide if you're not a illegal immigrant? Dope?

Read the Constitution.  Your attitude is exactly the opposite of what the Constitution entails.

IN Detroit, they profile people and pull them over and run their names for minor violations, and have begun cleaning up SOME of the areas.

AND PEOPLE ARE CRYING ABOUT IT BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE KEEP GETTING ARRESTED! AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA i hate detroiters

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 02, 2010, 06:40:40 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 06:33:08 PM

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

No, you're being stupid and fighting for no reason. The facts have been layed out to where what y'all are claiming are wrong but you still cry foul. Get on with your life. If you have a driver's license you're fine. Quit being so secretive, what do you have to hide if you're not a illegal immigrant? Dope?

Read the Constitution.  Your attitude is exactly the opposite of what the Constitution entails.

There you go again, ignoring the fact and continuing to cry foul.

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 02, 2010, 06:40:40 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 06:33:08 PM

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

No, you're being stupid and fighting for no reason. The facts have been layed out to where what y'all are claiming are wrong but you still cry foul. Get on with your life. If you have a driver's license you're fine. Quit being so secretive, what do you have to hide if you're not a illegal immigrant? Dope?

Read the Constitution.  Your attitude is exactly the opposite of what the Constitution entails.

Absolute crap. The Consititution is a "living" document in that it is still subject to change even today through amendments. As it stands, the Consitution rules against unlawful search and seizure and certain other rights in relation to privacy are held. However, a good bit of this is left up to the Judicial Branch and its intrepretations of this intentionally vague document. If they and the law at large deem it legal (with supporting views based on the Constitution)- it holds the weight of the Constitution behind it as they are its custodians.

As it stands, unless the Consitution is changed, the Judicial Branch hears a case against it, or the lawmakers themselves works against it - it stands thanks to different intrepretations of the "iron-clad" Constitution.

You crazy kids. Thinking the Constitution makes every act of investigation illegal just because your view of it says so.

That being said.... I don't really like the essense of this bill, but I understand that it can, with the right backing, stand up under any press short of a total "shake-down" of the Judicial Branch or the State Legislature.

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on May 02, 2010, 06:53:31 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 02, 2010, 06:40:40 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 06:33:08 PM

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

No, you're being stupid and fighting for no reason. The facts have been layed out to where what y'all are claiming are wrong but you still cry foul. Get on with your life. If you have a driver's license you're fine. Quit being so secretive, what do you have to hide if you're not a illegal immigrant? Dope?

Read the Constitution.  Your attitude is exactly the opposite of what the Constitution entails.

Absolute crap. The Consititution is a "living" document in that it is still subject to change even today through amendments. As it stands, the Consitution rules against unlawful search and seizure and certain other rights in relation to privacy are held. However, a good bit of this is left up to the Judicial Branch and its intrepretations of this intentionally vague document. If they and the law at large deem it legal (with supporting views based on the Constitution)- it holds the weight of the Constitution behind it as they are its custodians.

As it stands, unless the Consitution is changed, the Judicial Branch hears a case against it, or the lawmakers themselves works against it - it stands thanks to different intrepretations of the "iron-clad" Constitution.

You crazy kids. Thinking the Constitution makes every act of investigation illegal just because your view of it says so.

That being said.... I don't really like the essense of this bill, but I understand that it can, with the right backing, stand up under any press short of a total "shake-down" of the Judicial Branch or the State Legislature.

I was referring to his comment of "What do you have to hide?"

Why would anyone ever think that a Mexican could be an illegal Mexican immigrant.

I'm against racial profiling.

I'm against racial profiling.

It stinks but it works. Well.

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 07:41:27 PM

I'm against racial profiling.

It stinks but it works. Well.

All Americans should have their rights protected, whatever race.

Quote from: Death-T on May 02, 2010, 07:29:55 PM

Quote from: Saddam Hussein on May 02, 2010, 06:53:31 PM

Quote from: Baseball4Life on May 02, 2010, 06:40:40 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 06:33:08 PM

CR90, you really don't get it, do you? Nobody is defending illegal immigrants. I'm defending the rights of Americans.

No, you're being stupid and fighting for no reason. The facts have been layed out to where what y'all are claiming are wrong but you still cry foul. Get on with your life. If you have a driver's license you're fine. Quit being so secretive, what do you have to hide if you're not a illegal immigrant? Dope?

Read the Constitution.  Your attitude is exactly the opposite of what the Constitution entails.

Absolute crap. The Consititution is a "living" document in that it is still subject to change even today through amendments. As it stands, the Consitution rules against unlawful search and seizure and certain other rights in relation to privacy are held. However, a good bit of this is left up to the Judicial Branch and its intrepretations of this intentionally vague document. If they and the law at large deem it legal (with supporting views based on the Constitution)- it holds the weight of the Constitution behind it as they are its custodians.

As it stands, unless the Consitution is changed, the Judicial Branch hears a case against it, or the lawmakers themselves works against it - it stands thanks to different intrepretations of the "iron-clad" Constitution.

You crazy kids. Thinking the Constitution makes every act of investigation illegal just because your view of it says so.

That being said.... I don't really like the essense of this bill, but I understand that it can, with the right backing, stand up under any press short of a total "shake-down" of the Judicial Branch or the State Legislature.

I was referring to his comment of "What do you have to hide?"

Even that "principle" of the Constitution is not exacly set in stone. True, you have rights - but these rights are at the partial whim of the Judicial Branch and social tides. Don't like it? Get an amendment into the Constitution that sets out your rights, word for word, and will not be open to intrepretation.

Why would anyone ever think that a Mexican could be an illegal Mexican immigrant.

- Its quite easy to tell if you look for the right signs. For instance, from my employment at a greenhouse for nearly seven years rendered me a pretty good understanding of what to look for. However, its not always cut and dry, but the law only requires "Reasonable Suspicion" and the term can applied quite widely. Then again, if you have nothing to hide - don't sweat it.

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 07:41:27 PM

I'm against racial profiling.

It stinks but it works. Well.

Unfortunely..... it does have a basis in pure statistics.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on May 02, 2010, 08:18:00 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 02, 2010, 07:41:27 PM

I'm against racial profiling.

It stinks but it works. Well.

All Americans should have their rights protected, whatever race.

Key word there is "Americans" and IMO those in this country legally, which you can't tell by reading their mind contrary to popular belief.

Key word there is "Americans" and IMO those in this country legally, which you can't tell by reading their mind contrary to popular belief.

What the hell are you talking about? You are in favor of racial profiling? Interesting.

Nowhere in this law does it say they can pull over Mexicans. I feel like a damned broken record, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. If someone is breaking the law, and they cannot provide ID and even when they provide a name the cop cannot find them in their computer, that is cause to assume they're here illegally. If a couple documented residents end up getting harassed because they weren't carrying papers, so fucking be it. It's their fault they weren't carrying them so they should get harassed. We also do have illegals here that are not Mexican. I know someone who has a bunch of illegal Asian friends and they're so far stopping at least ten illegal Arabs a month at the border.

Anyways, after reading the sob stories in the newspaper about illegal families leaving the state because they're worried they're going to get caught. The law is working and no one is getting arrested.

Nowhere in this law does it say they can pull over Mexicans. I feel like a damned broken record, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. If someone is breaking the law, and they cannot provide ID and even when they provide a name the cop cannot find them in their computer, that is cause to assume they're here illegally. If a couple documented residents end up getting harassed because they weren't carrying papers, so fucking be it. It's their fault they weren't carrying them so they should get harassed. We also do have illegals here that are not Mexican. I know someone who has a bunch of illegal Asian friends and they're so far stopping at least ten illegal Arabs a month at the border.

Anyways, after reading the sob stories in the newspaper about illegal families leaving the state because they're worried they're going to get caught. The law is working and no one is getting arrested.

I think people are just more concerned with the possibility of it leading to the profiling and illegal search and seizures than with anything in the actual law. ANd i understand.

BUT I HATE ILLEGALS. ROAR!!!

I'm just not sure i like the precedent it sets. I really am not sure im ready for a national id card.

Quote from: sillyrob on May 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM

Nowhere in this law does it say they can pull over Mexicans. I feel like a damned broken record, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. If someone is breaking the law, and they cannot provide ID and even when they provide a name the cop cannot find them in their computer, that is cause to assume they're here illegally. If a couple documented residents end up getting harassed because they weren't carrying papers, so fucking be it. It's their fault they weren't carrying them so they should get harassed. We also do have illegals here that are not Mexican. I know someone who has a bunch of illegal Asian friends and they're so far stopping at least ten illegal Arabs a month at the border.

Anyways, after reading the sob stories in the newspaper about illegal families leaving the state because they're worried they're going to get caught. The law is working and no one is getting arrested.

I think people are just more concerned with the possibility of it leading to the profiling and illegal search and seizures than with anything in the actual law. ANd i understand.

BUT I HATE ILLEGALS. ROAR!!!

I'm just not sure i like the precedent it sets. I really am not sure im ready for a national id card.

People are just assuming that cops are going to be racist and illegally search brown people for funsies. I'm pretty sure that's racist.

Quote from: theonlydann on May 03, 2010, 03:27:08 AM

Quote from: sillyrob on May 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM

Nowhere in this law does it say they can pull over Mexicans. I feel like a damned broken record, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. If someone is breaking the law, and they cannot provide ID and even when they provide a name the cop cannot find them in their computer, that is cause to assume they're here illegally. If a couple documented residents end up getting harassed because they weren't carrying papers, so fucking be it. It's their fault they weren't carrying them so they should get harassed. We also do have illegals here that are not Mexican. I know someone who has a bunch of illegal Asian friends and they're so far stopping at least ten illegal Arabs a month at the border.

Anyways, after reading the sob stories in the newspaper about illegal families leaving the state because they're worried they're going to get caught. The law is working and no one is getting arrested.

I think people are just more concerned with the possibility of it leading to the profiling and illegal search and seizures than with anything in the actual law. ANd i understand.

BUT I HATE ILLEGALS. ROAR!!!

I'm just not sure i like the precedent it sets. I really am not sure im ready for a national id card.

People are just assuming that cops are going to be racist and illegally search brown people for funsies. I'm pretty sure that's racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

The law will be abused.

Quote from: sillyrob on May 03, 2010, 03:54:51 AM

Quote from: theonlydann on May 03, 2010, 03:27:08 AM

Quote from: sillyrob on May 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM

Nowhere in this law does it say they can pull over Mexicans. I feel like a damned broken record, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. If someone is breaking the law, and they cannot provide ID and even when they provide a name the cop cannot find them in their computer, that is cause to assume they're here illegally. If a couple documented residents end up getting harassed because they weren't carrying papers, so fucking be it. It's their fault they weren't carrying them so they should get harassed. We also do have illegals here that are not Mexican. I know someone who has a bunch of illegal Asian friends and they're so far stopping at least ten illegal Arabs a month at the border.

Anyways, after reading the sob stories in the newspaper about illegal families leaving the state because they're worried they're going to get caught. The law is working and no one is getting arrested.

I think people are just more concerned with the possibility of it leading to the profiling and illegal search and seizures than with anything in the actual law. ANd i understand.

BUT I HATE ILLEGALS. ROAR!!!

I'm just not sure i like the precedent it sets. I really am not sure im ready for a national id card.

People are just assuming that cops are going to be racist and illegally search brown people for funsies. I'm pretty sure that's racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

The law will be abused.

why? because the old sheriff is tough on immigration. he has been elected to five times as sheriff so he must be doing something right.

Quote from: theonlydann on May 03, 2010, 03:27:08 AM

Quote from: sillyrob on May 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM

Nowhere in this law does it say they can pull over Mexicans. I feel like a damned broken record, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. If someone is breaking the law, and they cannot provide ID and even when they provide a name the cop cannot find them in their computer, that is cause to assume they're here illegally. If a couple documented residents end up getting harassed because they weren't carrying papers, so fucking be it. It's their fault they weren't carrying them so they should get harassed. We also do have illegals here that are not Mexican. I know someone who has a bunch of illegal Asian friends and they're so far stopping at least ten illegal Arabs a month at the border.

Anyways, after reading the sob stories in the newspaper about illegal families leaving the state because they're worried they're going to get caught. The law is working and no one is getting arrested.

I think people are just more concerned with the possibility of it leading to the profiling and illegal search and seizures than with anything in the actual law. ANd i understand.

BUT I HATE ILLEGALS. ROAR!!!

I'm just not sure i like the precedent it sets. I really am not sure im ready for a national id card.

People are just assuming that cops are going to be racist and illegally search brown people for funsies. I'm pretty sure that's racist.

I don't trust the police. Sorry, just seen enough bullshit from fed up cops.