There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)

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flyingmonkey

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2010, 09:43:08 PM »
Right, so when you people of FE can count past 2 with joining raindrops, I'll start to listen.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2010, 03:03:22 AM »
Just give us some idea of how science is better off with the 100 or 150 years of philosophical studies since the scientific method was first drafted.


The problem here is that you're constantly assuming that science and philosophy are distinct. My point is that they aren't. Science is a branch of empiricism, which is itself a branch of epistemology and hence a branch of philosophy. Science is philosophy, just a specific and very successful form.


The point is simple: the scientists like me accept that science has a specific place in the realm of human knowledge, and that there is not much we can or want to contribute to the ultimate questions of philosophy. We dedicate ourselves to the problems that are amenable to the scientific method and, in some cases, to the theoretical problems that arise from mathematical formulations of models that do not, do do not yet show in experiments and observations. Philosophers, on the other hand, accept that the realm of science has few interesting philosophical implications and dedicate themselves to other targets.


Again, this paragraph displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what philosophy is. You say "science has a specific place in the realm of human knowledge, and that there is not much we can or want to contribute to the ultimate questions of philosophy". Philosophy is very much concerned with human knowledge, that's what epistemology is all about. However, there are different fields of philosophy, and different approaches to philosophy. Epistemology is a field, and the scientific method is an approach. The two are not distinct; one is just a subset of the other.


Also, you should note that there is an absolute wealth of writing about the science of philosophy, so don't make such ridiculous generalisations.


You can still play with words all you like, or show us a research in which an interdisciplinary group of scientists and philosophers work together.


Well, as I have already pointed out, there are frequent ethical and epistemological discussions in scientific circles. However, all of this is beside the point, because proving that science is philosophical in nature is really quite easy. Observe:


1) Science is an empirical method.

2) Empiricism is an epistemological theory.

3) Epistemology is a philosophical field.


Therefore, science is philosophical, Q.E.D.


If you want to continue this discussion, start by telling us which of those three points is incorrect, and why.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2010, 03:42:47 AM »
In principle I agree with you, it is a link which I feel is getting lost. Although in the modern parlance I think its a little naive to equate science and scientific method, in my experienceat least. Rightly or wrongly science is a term which is used to describe the physical sciences and biology, and to some extent medicine. The empirical scientific method is applied to a whole number of other fields, although these more often than not stick science on the end to highlight the fact that they are using scientific method (social sciences would be an example). Maybe the term science should be expanded to cover a wider range fo subjects or perhaps more sensibly science should be dropped as a subject name and reserved for the methodology.

Although I havent read the rest of this thread I think we can assuem this is probably the only bit I agree with.

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trig

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2010, 01:01:14 PM »
Just give us some idea of how science is better off with the 100 or 150 years of philosophical studies since the scientific method was first drafted.


The problem here is that you're constantly assuming that science and philosophy are distinct. My point is that they aren't. Science is a branch of empiricism, which is itself a branch of epistemology and hence a branch of philosophy. Science is philosophy, just a specific and very successful form.


The point is simple: the scientists like me accept that science has a specific place in the realm of human knowledge, and that there is not much we can or want to contribute to the ultimate questions of philosophy. We dedicate ourselves to the problems that are amenable to the scientific method and, in some cases, to the theoretical problems that arise from mathematical formulations of models that do not, do do not yet show in experiments and observations. Philosophers, on the other hand, accept that the realm of science has few interesting philosophical implications and dedicate themselves to other targets.


Again, this paragraph displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what philosophy is. You say "science has a specific place in the realm of human knowledge, and that there is not much we can or want to contribute to the ultimate questions of philosophy". Philosophy is very much concerned with human knowledge, that's what epistemology is all about. However, there are different fields of philosophy, and different approaches to philosophy. Epistemology is a field, and the scientific method is an approach. The two are not distinct; one is just a subset of the other.


Also, you should note that there is an absolute wealth of writing about the science of philosophy, so don't make such ridiculous generalisations.


You can still play with words all you like, or show us a research in which an interdisciplinary group of scientists and philosophers work together.


Well, as I have already pointed out, there are frequent ethical and epistemological discussions in scientific circles. However, all of this is beside the point, because proving that science is philosophical in nature is really quite easy. Observe:


1) Science is an empirical method.

2) Empiricism is an epistemological theory.

3) Epistemology is a philosophical field.


Therefore, science is philosophical, Q.E.D.


If you want to continue this discussion, start by telling us which of those three points is incorrect, and why.
To continue playing the same game, every field of human knowledge is a branch of Quantum Physics, since everyone, everywhere is interacting with matter or energy, even the philosopher who studies reality (all instances of reality that we know of have matter or energy).

This does not imply that the study of Quantum Mechanics will help a historian understand why a battle was fought.

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Deceiver

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #124 on: May 04, 2010, 02:19:42 PM »
Pretty certain science has roots in philosophy. Since the time of Aristotle, that philosophy has changed. But it's aways been about discovering truth. What has changed in more modern times however, is that we cannot rely on subjective evidence, and that humans by default are subject to bias -- which is why we labor over seemingly obvious facts -- simple things can be taken as assumptions, so they must be proven beyond doubt before moving onto more complex things... Thus we have the scientific method (descarte formalized this if I remember right <shrug>) We trust our senses less, and rely on mathematical laws and tools more than we ever have. That's probably a gross oversimplification, but in a nutshell, that's what science is about (arguably).

In any case, we could argue semantics until the end of time. What you can't argue however, is against the case that science doesn't have two types of numbers... constants, and numbers with units attached. It's a bit foolish to argue that raindrops are all of a sudden a valid discrete unit. Any raindrop that exists is the combination of innumerable other raindrops, that formed from a single nucleus and slowly accreted more such seeded nuclei. Which is why we use mass and such. There is no ambiguity about what that term means. The OP's raindrop explanation is a useless measurement, even when taken to extreme abstraction! Similar analogies are just as nonsensical! You might as well combine parcels of air! There's no meaning when you ignore objective terms of measurement! Even using solids, such as two apples.. isn't particularly helpful unless we are very uncaring about the specifics of our apples. Only measurements of the same unit can be used as a comparison in any circumstance.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 02:54:36 PM by Deceiver »

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General Disarray

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2010, 08:41:47 PM »
The study of physics used to be called "natural philosophy".

But that doesn't really have any significance to the topic of the thread, because 1 raindrop + 1 raindrop = another bigger raindrop.

Can't believe this is still going...
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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2010, 05:24:43 AM »
I think this topic is giving more support to a round earth than to a flat one. If I understood correctly, the flat earth supporters are trying to prove that science is unreliable. The only reason anyone would do that is because they couldn't use science to show that the world is flat. This is probably the last resort to defend the flat earth hypothesis.

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The Question1

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2010, 06:47:53 AM »
I missed the part where the earth being round was proven wrong.

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General Disarray

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2010, 07:20:58 AM »
Don't worry, we all did.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2010, 08:02:40 AM »
To continue playing the same game, every field of human knowledge is a branch of Quantum Physics, since everyone, everywhere is interacting with matter or energy, even the philosopher who studies reality (all instances of reality that we know of have matter or energy).

This does not imply that the study of Quantum Mechanics will help a historian understand why a battle was fought.


Not the same thing at all. We're talking about catagories of human thought, i.e. the relationship between concepts. Science is both historically and conceptually linked to philosophy. Other realms of human thought (e.g. music, cinema, sport) have a far more tenuous connection, and are certainly not subsets of philosophy.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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trig

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #130 on: May 07, 2010, 08:58:49 AM »
If I understood correctly, the flat earth supporters are trying to prove that science is unreliable. The only reason anyone would do that is because they couldn't use science to show that the world is flat. This is probably the last resort to defend the flat earth hypothesis.
I agree. While cheap philosophy is harder to separate from good one by the general public, bad science is a lot easier to spot.

Since FE theorists have not been able to make any inroads into real science (that is, with models and predictions based on those models and experiments and observations to test those predictions) they have to find a field where blabber can pass as knowledge. If you claim that science is just a subset of the whole picture so there are effective alternatives to science, you create a space where any speculation can pass as one of those alternatives.

The alternative to science you choose, like Zeteticism, for example, will be compared to science on the cheap philosophy arena, not on the hard evidence and scientific method arena. Four hundred years of accumulated knowledge can then be compared with the first conspiracy theory any paranoid can muster.

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lossforwords21

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #131 on: May 10, 2010, 06:19:28 AM »
Quote
Typical of a globularist when all else fails to rely on Platonism. It is nothing short of a religion.


Ah, religion, eh? Well I can honestly say, I'm not a part of any religion whatsoever. I have my own beliefs. The earth being round is not one of them. The Earth being round, isn't a belief its a fact. I'd like to meet to guy who first thought "Hmm, maybe everyone is lying to us. Maybe the Earth isn't round after all.", and smack him in the face. You "FE'ers" as you call yourself, are simply trying to find a way to seem important. You respond to us like robots, with no feeling or passion. Take a look at the difference in the conversations between the two. We respond like real people people with enthusiasm, not without emotion. It's like you've been completely taken over by conspiracy its ridiculous.

Anyways, I'm not going to continue debates with people of your level. I'm not inferring that your not smart, but face reality. They have programs where you can go into space as a civilian. I suggest at least one person, out of ALL you FE'ers, take that chance. You might have a heart attack when you see the curve of the Earth. But then again, you all are too proud to do even try.


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Catchpa

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #132 on: May 10, 2010, 09:16:38 AM »
1 raindrop + 1 raindrop is not even = 1 raindrop, as the OP stated. You can't even make the equation because there's not sufficient information.
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James

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #133 on: May 10, 2010, 05:24:10 PM »
Quote
Typical of a globularist when all else fails to rely on Platonism. It is nothing short of a religion.


Ah, religion, eh? Well I can honestly say, I'm not a part of any religion whatsoever. I have my own beliefs. The earth being round is not one of them. The Earth being round, isn't a belief its a fact. I'd like to meet to guy who first thought "Hmm, maybe everyone is lying to us. Maybe the Earth isn't round after all.", and smack him in the face. You "FE'ers" as you call yourself, are simply trying to find a way to seem important. You respond to us like robots, with no feeling or passion. Take a look at the difference in the conversations between the two. We respond like real people people with enthusiasm, not without emotion. It's like you've been completely taken over by conspiracy its ridiculous.


Globularism is a religion.

Anyways, I'm not going to continue debates with people of your level. I'm not inferring that your not smart, but face reality. They have programs where you can go into space as a civilian. I suggest at least one person, out of ALL you FE'ers, take that chance. You might have a heart attack when you see the curve of the Earth. But then again, you all are too proud to do even try.

I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #134 on: May 10, 2010, 05:26:54 PM »
I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.

What James forgets to mention is that the program in question rigorously tested and sought out the most gullible people they could find.

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Lorddave

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #135 on: May 10, 2010, 05:34:06 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.


I knew a guy who was a gym teacher.  Kept in great shape.  40+ years old, coached sports, exercised daily, ect...

Died of a heart attack on the bleachers while watching his son's game.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2010, 05:36:51 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.


I knew a guy who was a gym teacher.  Kept in great shape.  40+ years old, coached sports, exercised daily, ect...

Died of a heart attack on the bleachers while watching his son's game.
Was it a night game?
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Lorddave

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2010, 05:38:50 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.


I knew a guy who was a gym teacher.  Kept in great shape.  40+ years old, coached sports, exercised daily, ect...

Died of a heart attack on the bleachers while watching his son's game.
Was it a night game?

No, it was daylight, in the spring.  Highschool Baseball.

And don't you start with the whole "The moon rays are harmful" or I'll find you, tie you to a tree, and let you tell me which hurts more: the sun or the moon.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2010, 05:40:18 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.


I knew a guy who was a gym teacher.  Kept in great shape.  40+ years old, coached sports, exercised daily, ect...

Died of a heart attack on the bleachers while watching his son's game.
Was it a night game?

No, it was daylight, in the spring.  Highschool Baseball.

And don't you start with the whole "The moon rays are harmful" or I'll find you, tie you to a tree, and let you tell me which hurts more: the sun or the moon.
Please do not threaten me with torture.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Lorddave

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2010, 05:43:01 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.


I knew a guy who was a gym teacher.  Kept in great shape.  40+ years old, coached sports, exercised daily, ect...

Died of a heart attack on the bleachers while watching his son's game.
Was it a night game?

No, it was daylight, in the spring.  Highschool Baseball.

And don't you start with the whole "The moon rays are harmful" or I'll find you, tie you to a tree, and let you tell me which hurts more: the sun or the moon.
Please do not threaten me with torture.

And which one would be the torture?  The sun or moon?

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markjo

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #140 on: May 10, 2010, 07:18:55 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence. I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.

Maybe not.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Cadets#.27Double_hoax.27_theory
As the attention to detail in the hoaxed environment became clear, some viewers expressed suspicions - in particular on Channel 4's message board for the programme - that the entire show, including the apparent gullibility and abject ignorance of the Cadets, was in fact a double bluff; all the Cadets were actors and that the real target of "the biggest prank in television history" was the "gullible" viewing public.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #141 on: May 10, 2010, 07:20:14 PM »
He's making a legitimate point.  What would cause more harm: staying in unprotected sunlight or moonlight?  Gin has done nothing to say what kinds of negative effects could be caused by moonlight apart from saying that they're "dangerous."

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Sliver

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #142 on: May 10, 2010, 07:23:01 PM »
I assure you my heart is extremely robust, I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence.
And yet, somehow, you don't own a camera?

Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #143 on: May 11, 2010, 02:05:10 AM »
    I think it is time that we take a serious look at the issues as to why

...

 Even if you think it is ridiculous to believe that the earth is flat in today’s world, please remember that it is critical that you as a person examine everything that you think you know because it may surprise you.

Understood. Raindrops are flat.

( ) or _ ?

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Flatearthersarestupid

Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #144 on: May 11, 2010, 08:33:23 AM »
Ok a few question for the dumbass "flat earthers"

1. Go outside at night, see the moon and other planets that are ROUND, why would earth be the only flat planet?

2. How would a flat earth be possible? What would be on the other side of the flat earth? When i think of it, it seems like a coin with our earth on one side there has to be something on the other side.

3. Go onto google earth. Look at all the satellite immages, you can zoom in and see your house. How would these all be fake???

4. Why in the HELL would all of the worlds governments spend so much money defending some "super secret beyond the ice wall"?

5. Explain the space shuttles lauching into space and the images they send back. They are all fake? All astronauts are lying?

Disprove me dumbasses. I dare you.

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trig

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #145 on: May 11, 2010, 09:49:37 AM »
I am often scaling hills and scouring far and wide to obtain information and scientific evidence.

Then it would be easy for you to navigate a few dozen miles in an Eastward or Westward direction, carrying a clock, a telescope or a sextant, maybe a GPS, and keep a good log of the navigational information as you move. I can give you specific instructions so you can make measurements that cancel out Bendy Light, so you can have confidence on the results, be they in favor of a flat or a spherical Earth. You don't even need your physical prowess. A car with an odometer is more than enough.

I suggest you watch this enlightening television programme - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/space-cadets - it demonstrates quite clearly how easy it is to fake a space program even to people who think they are aboard a space ship.

Your selection of evidence is most telling: anyone with half a wit knows that everything about a Reality TV show is only as reliable as the producers of the show. Whether you believe the hoax was played on specifically chosen gullible and ignorant participants, or played on the gullible audience (as markjo's quote says), it can only fool a part of the audience. If it were shown as a real space adventure, people everywhere would have cried foul.

Reality TV shows are targeted towards the gullible that really believe Paris Hilton does not know what a WalMart is, or that a gorgeous multimillionaire will marry an unknown woman whose only credentials are that she is beautiful enough to be selected from a crowd. A perfect conspiracy would have to fool those like me, who do not fall for Reality TV.

Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2010, 03:20:50 AM »
Ok a few question for the dumbass "flat earthers"

1. Go outside at night, see the moon and other planets that are ROUND, why would earth be the only flat planet?

2. How would a flat earth be possible? What would be on the other side of the flat earth? When i think of it, it seems like a coin with our earth on one side there has to be something on the other side.

3. Go onto google earth. Look at all the satellite immages, you can zoom in and see your house. How would these all be fake???

4. Why in the HELL would all of the worlds governments spend so much money defending some "super secret beyond the ice wall"?

5. Explain the space shuttles lauching into space and the images they send back. They are all fake? All astronauts are lying?

Disprove me dumbasses. I dare you.
Stop trolling.  Go find a place where those questions are even moderately relevant.  Everyone wants to disprove the FE's, but stick to the rules.


As for that unbelievably ridiculous "raindrops" equation, consider this: 1 raindrop + 1 raindrop FORMS 1 (bigger) raindrop.  1 (bigger) raindrop = 2(raindrop)
It's not tough to figure out.  Now stop acting like you just found the evidence that everything we've been taught is a lie.  1 + 1 still equals 2, you moron.

Trolling makes me angry.

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Tystar

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2010, 06:01:55 PM »
Ok so you're saying we observe a flat Earth, what I observe is that you're avoiding the actual question at hand saying 2 rain drops coming together =/= a flat earth. I have been in a high flying planes and have personally seen the curvature of the earth. Also how can you enter Asia from two different directions. I want to see real proof.

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James

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2010, 06:06:58 PM »
Ok so you're saying we observe a flat Earth, what I observe is that you're avoiding the actual question at hand saying 2 rain drops coming together =/= a flat earth. I have been in a high flying planes and have personally seen the curvature of the earth. Also how can you enter Asia from two different directions. I want to see real proof.

Well Tystar I believe you should perhaps look at one of our maps, it may answer some of the questions you are having a hard time with!
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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The Question1

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Re: There is no way for a round Earth to Exist. (Science & Philosophy)
« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2010, 06:07:49 PM »
Ok so you're saying we observe a flat Earth, what I observe is that you're avoiding the actual question at hand saying 2 rain drops coming together =/= a flat earth. I have been in a high flying planes and have personally seen the curvature of the earth. Also how can you enter Asia from two different directions. I want to see real proof.
East and West are curved directions.
As in when you are going eastward its in a circle.

If your wondering if that would create larger distances in the southern hemisphere,then you are right.