Thank God for California gun laws.

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2010, 07:53:08 PM »

I agree. What many people don't understand is the fact that harsh gun restrictions simply won't work in the USA. There are simply too many guns in circulation.

Most criminals don't purchase their weapons and don't have the necessary permits to carry them. Making concealed carry without permit a capital crime, with very harsh consequences (10 years+) would go a long way to reduce gun crime.

Not necessarily just that, but carrying a gun while committing a crime.

Agreed, the fact that the suspect was in posession of a gun, while comitting a crime should carry high penalties. In my opinion it doesn't matter if the gun was used or not.


America is one of the most violent countries in the West. Canada which has similar levels of gun ownership is one of the least violent countries. That tells me that propensity to violence is a cultural thing. What is is about America that makes it so violent? That's the question we should be asking.

I am pretty sure this can easily be explained by the gang culture in the USA.


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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2010, 07:57:56 PM »
I don't know if harsher punishments would really help.  Not just for gun crimes, but in general, the deterrence aspect of punishment only goes so far.  If deterrence was all we needed to stop crime, then we should see significantly less crime in the states that permit the death penalty as opposed to those that don't.

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2010, 08:01:35 PM »
I don't know if harsher punishments would really help.  Not just for gun crimes, but in general, the deterrence aspect of punishment only goes so far.  If deterrence was all we needed to stop crime, then we should see significantly less crime in the states that permit the death penalty as opposed to those that don't.

I would argue that this isn't about deterrence. It is more about getting people who are willing to use guns for crimes off the street.

It's different with the death penalty, because these people are either behind bars for life or dead. The general population is safe either way.

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2010, 08:11:23 PM »

Thank you for completely ignoring what I said then making some chauvinistic comments. Racism is so passe with the liberals, but chauvinism against america is totally in.

Fucker.

OK you lost me there. Have no idea what you mean by Chauvenism. Sure it's easy for me to extol the virtues of a gunless scoiety when I live in one but nowhere have I said America should ban guns...quite the opposite for the same reasons others are writing. America IS a more violent society than Canada...that is a statistical fact. My curiousity is a genuine one when both countries have similar amounts of gun ownership. If anything I'm making the point that guns in themselves don't make for a violent society. Similarly they don't seem to reduce violence either. Canada for example only has less than one third the homicide rate of America. So there has to be a culture difference going on somewhere. I think it's legititimate question in a debate about what impact guns have or don't have on a society.

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2010, 05:32:47 AM »
In New Zealand you can legally own anything up to and including a Vulcan minigun. Yet New Zealand has the lowestnumber of gun crimes in relation to population. Clearly, guns and gun laws aren't the problem. The solution isn't more or less guns, it's a mor awesome country.

Reminds me of an episode of Boston Legal.

"Now, we all know that John was tragically murdered in the store robbery by thugs with assault rifles, BUT,
this wouldn't have happened if john had an assault rifeofhis own!"
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Raist

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2010, 06:33:16 AM »

Thank you for completely ignoring what I said then making some chauvinistic comments. Racism is so passe with the liberals, but chauvinism against america is totally in.

Fucker.

OK you lost me there. Have no idea what you mean by Chauvenism. Sure it's easy for me to extol the virtues of a gunless scoiety when I live in one but nowhere have I said America should ban guns...quite the opposite for the same reasons others are writing. America IS a more violent society than Canada...that is a statistical fact. My curiousity is a genuine one when both countries have similar amounts of gun ownership. If anything I'm making the point that guns in themselves don't make for a violent society. Similarly they don't seem to reduce violence either. Canada for example only has less than one third the homicide rate of America. So there has to be a culture difference going on somewhere. I think it's legititimate question in a debate about what impact guns have or don't have on a society.

www.dictionary.com

Calling another society violent is no better than calling another race violent. There might be a higher propensity towards violence in another country resulting from economic or social factors but it would be ridiculous to label the entire country as violent because of this.

I'm glad you are making sure I know what positions you haven't taken, but I'd like to point out that I haven't taken half the positions you are debating with me now on. So please stop implying I've made an argument for or against such things.

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2010, 09:51:06 PM »

Calling another society violent is no better than calling another race violent. There might be a higher propensity towards violence in another country resulting from economic or social factors but it would be ridiculous to label the entire country as violent because of this.


I'm glad you are making sure I know what positions you haven't taken, but I'd like to point out that I haven't taken half the positions you are debating with me now on. So please stop implying I've made an argument for or against such things.
[/quote]

That's nonsense! How else am I supposed to refer to crime stats of America compared to Canada. At no point do I say all Americans are violent. But a society can be labelled as more violent if it has a higher level of violent crime. Yes there'll be reasons, ranging from poverty to gang culture and the fact that drugs don't have to travel far to be smuggled into America (all factors that can aid crime). Canada is probably a bit more sheltered from that, I dunno but that's the debate I'm exploring.


I'm glad you are making sure I know what positions you haven't taken, but I'd like to point out that I haven't taken half the positions you are debating with me now on. So please stop implying I've made an argument for or against such things.

I haven't said or implied anything of the sort. I'm merely adding my views to a general debate.

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2010, 04:09:05 AM »
America is a violent place.  Mostly in part thanks to the illegal war on drugs.
Recognizing society is dangerous is the first step in protecting yourself.
Realizng that the government is abusive is one of the main causes is the second step.
If you value your life, don't trust it in the hands of anyone but yourself and your family.
That's where guns come in.
Books don't lie...the people that write them do.

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theonlydann

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2010, 06:12:19 AM »
What about my doctor!  :o

America has some violent places. I work in Detroit, yet have never seen violence down here. Go figure.

(i have heard gunshots though. The real bad things usually happen at night.)

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2010, 12:05:05 PM »
America is a violent place.  Mostly in part thanks to the illegal war on drugs.
Recognizing society is dangerous is the first step in protecting yourself.
Realizng that the government is abusive is one of the main causes is the second step.
If you value your life, don't trust it in the hands of anyone but yourself and your family.
That's where guns come in.

I totally agree. And indeed in the UK we are seeing similar correlation between the increase of drugs related crime and violence. The bulk of illegal firearms are owned by criminal gangs obviously but if you have no connections to those groups of people then the risk of, say, being shot is extremely low. The police force, whilst not generally armed with firearms have been allowed to start using pepper spray and Tazers in recognition of the increasing level of violence they encounter. Armed response units exist in unmarked cars to response to firearms incidents.

As for America, if you live in a community with a high level of crime then you definitely need to do what you need to do to feel safer. The criminals will almost certainly have guns, whether street robbers or drugs barons. And as much I'd like to see the need for guns as a primary form of defence disappear, it's just not possible in as country with so many guns in circulation.

Here's a great example of how messed up UK law is on self defence. You are only allowed to use what is deemed as 'reasonable force'. A case involving a man called Tony Martin (you can look it up). This guy lived on a farm. His house had been broken into many times and on one occasion his dogs killed etc. One night he was home when burglars came. Like many farmers he owned a gun. He fired in the dark at the figures that were IN his house. He killed one of them and was jailed for 5 years for manslaughter. No apeal. Public outcry didn;t change his plight.

More recently, a man came home to find a burglar in his house that had TIED up his wife and children. He grabbed a cricket bat and chased the burglar down the street and gave him a good beating. He was jailed too....but this time the public outcry made sure he got reseased after a couple of days. His conviction for Assault still stands though.

Now I don't think guns need to be legalised in the UK as you know, but surely criminals should have NO rights if they commit a crime against me. It's bs law made by people who sit in their safe ivory towers and never become victims of crime.


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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2010, 12:22:34 PM »
Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys  do too (if they have a gun)

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theonlydann

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2010, 01:17:34 PM »
Drug barons? lol!!!

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2010, 07:49:28 PM »
America is a violent place.  Mostly in part thanks to the illegal war on drugs.
Recognizing society is dangerous is the first step in protecting yourself.
Realizng that the government is abusive is one of the main causes is the second step.
If you value your life, don't trust it in the hands of anyone but yourself and your family.
That's where guns come in.

I totally agree. And indeed in the UK we are seeing similar correlation between the increase of drugs related crime and violence. The bulk of illegal firearms are owned by criminal gangs obviously but if you have no connections to those groups of people then the risk of, say, being shot is extremely low. The police force, whilst not generally armed with firearms have been allowed to start using pepper spray and Tazers in recognition of the increasing level of violence they encounter. Armed response units exist in unmarked cars to response to firearms incidents.

As for America, if you live in a community with a high level of crime then you definitely need to do what you need to do to feel safer. The criminals will almost certainly have guns, whether street robbers or drugs barons. And as much I'd like to see the need for guns as a primary form of defence disappear, it's just not possible in as country with so many guns in circulation.

Here's a great example of how messed up UK law is on self defence. You are only allowed to use what is deemed as 'reasonable force'. A case involving a man called Tony Martin (you can look it up). This guy lived on a farm. His house had been broken into many times and on one occasion his dogs killed etc. One night he was home when burglars came. Like many farmers he owned a gun. He fired in the dark at the figures that were IN his house. He killed one of them and was jailed for 5 years for manslaughter. No apeal. Public outcry didn;t change his plight.

More recently, a man came home to find a burglar in his house that had TIED up his wife and children. He grabbed a cricket bat and chased the burglar down the street and gave him a good beating. He was jailed too....but this time the public outcry made sure he got reseased after a couple of days. His conviction for Assault still stands though.

Now I don't think guns need to be legalised in the UK as you know, but surely criminals should have NO rights if they commit a crime against me. It's bs law made by people who sit in their safe ivory towers and never become victims of crime.


I somewhat agree, but I think we know where we differ.  I disagree with the 'no rights' part most specifically.  Criminals have the same legal protection as noncriminals.  However, people have the right to self defense, so that means if you get shot committing a violent crime, it's nobody's fault of your own.
Books don't lie...the people that write them do.

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2010, 11:06:03 PM »

I somewhat agree, but I think we know where we differ.  I disagree with the 'no rights' part most specifically.  Criminals have the same legal protection as noncriminals.  However, people have the right to self defense, so that means if you get shot committing a violent crime, it's nobody's fault of your own.

Of course criminals have right to legal representation etc. What I meant was that a criminal should have no rights over me if he breaks into my house and I have to resort to violence to protect myself or my family. To expect that guy who came home and found his terrified wife and children tied up to be 'reasonable' in terms of force, it's a big ask. The law it seems takes no accounts of the emotional stress of the victim. It was argued that because he pursued him halfway down the street that the force of the beating was not reasonable. But had the husband not chased the burglar and beat him with the bat, then the burglar would probably have never been caught and faced justice anyway.

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Ocius

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2010, 04:46:39 AM »
There was a shooting a couple miles from where I live just recently.

http://www.sacramentotoday.net/news/templates/community.asp?articleid=1055&zoneid=1

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Raist

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2010, 06:36:31 PM »

I somewhat agree, but I think we know where we differ.  I disagree with the 'no rights' part most specifically.  Criminals have the same legal protection as noncriminals.  However, people have the right to self defense, so that means if you get shot committing a violent crime, it's nobody's fault of your own.

Of course criminals have right to legal representation etc. What I meant was that a criminal should have no rights over me if he breaks into my house and I have to resort to violence to protect myself or my family. To expect that guy who came home and found his terrified wife and children tied up to be 'reasonable' in terms of force, it's a big ask. The law it seems takes no accounts of the emotional stress of the victim. It was argued that because he pursued him halfway down the street that the force of the beating was not reasonable. But had the husband not chased the burglar and beat him with the bat, then the burglar would probably have never been caught and faced justice anyway.

There is a line. If you are allowed to kill anyone "trespassing" even if they aren't a threat that opens things up to telling someone to leave and shooting them on their way out. The only time a person should ever be allowed to kill is to protect themselves or others. (This is to keep the law from having huge gray areas)

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2010, 07:39:16 PM »

There is a line. If you are allowed to kill anyone "trespassing" even if they aren't a threat that opens things up to telling someone to leave and shooting them on their way out. The only time a person should ever be allowed to kill is to protect themselves or others. (This is to keep the law from having huge gray areas)

I agree with that but at what point do you wait to find out if you need to use force? When the burglar has a knife at your throat? I can totally understand why, when faced with a burglar in their house, someone, probably frightened, uses force before the burglar has any chance to be a physical threat. You are not going to ask him to sit down for a cup of tea while you discuss if he's carrying a knife and if he's likely to use it? In Tony Martin's case, burglars previously had shot his dogs. I cite the example of the man with the bat because I can totally understand how angry he was to find some waster had tied up and terrified his wife and children. And maybe if there was no restaint in Law in self defense burglars might think twice before stepping into someone's house to steal. Not saying I agree with that but right now there is little to deter a lot of crime in the UK.

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Raist

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2010, 08:16:16 PM »
Oh we were talking UK here. In most states if you can prove that you feared for your life then the case will be marked as self defense.

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2010, 08:18:36 PM »
Well, here in Virginia the person has to be posing a physical threat to you.
Usually, simply pointing a gun at another individual is enough to make them stop whatever they are doing / run for their life.
If the man that chased that other man down with a bat had instead shot him with a gun, he'd be in jail for murder in the second degree.  The law is structured to make killing the last possible resort.  In fact, you're charged with murder, and you have to 'prove' your innocence with the defense of 'justifiable homicide.'
See http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html for more information and excelent case citing on the subject if you're interested.
Books don't lie...the people that write them do.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2010, 06:22:23 AM »

@warrdog nice holster, but none of that will work for me until they can get one to fit into a tight shirt and tight jeans, and hold a hammerless .357 snubnose.

I bought mine a couple of months ago.  I wear it all the time even in the house when I am not out and about.  Very comfortable considering im carrying a sub compact .45   


pics or it didn't happen.

I'm wearing it now.

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2010, 06:29:25 AM »
Besides what use is the gun in your handbag if the attacker already has their gun at your head?

Little known but potentially very useful true fact: if someone really does have a gun against your head you will almost certainly be able to knock it away with a swift arm movement before the gun toter has time to react and fire. By the time they realise and pull the trigger, the gun will be pointing off to the side. Nobody in the movies ever tries this but it is true.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2010, 08:26:05 AM »
Besides what use is the gun in your handbag if the attacker already has their gun at your head?

Little known but potentially very useful true fact: if someone really does have a gun against your head you will almost certainly be able to knock it away with a swift arm movement before the gun toter has time to react and fire. By the time they realise and pull the trigger, the gun will be pointing off to the side. Nobody in the movies ever tries this but it is true.

Maybe so, although I doubt many people would have the balls to try that in real life.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2010, 10:56:50 AM »
Besides what use is the gun in your handbag if the attacker already has their gun at your head?

Little known but potentially very useful true fact: if someone really does have a gun against your head you will almost certainly be able to knock it away with a swift arm movement before the gun toter has time to react and fire. By the time they realise and pull the trigger, the gun will be pointing off to the side. Nobody in the movies ever tries this but it is true.

Maybe so, although I doubt many people would have the balls to try that in real life.

With the proper self defense class i bet you would.   A guy has a gun to your head...either way, do it or dont do it, the out look isnt so good. 

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2010, 10:59:59 AM »
Besides what use is the gun in your handbag if the attacker already has their gun at your head?

Little known but potentially very useful true fact: if someone really does have a gun against your head you will almost certainly be able to knock it away with a swift arm movement before the gun toter has time to react and fire. By the time they realise and pull the trigger, the gun will be pointing off to the side. Nobody in the movies ever tries this but it is true.

Maybe so, although I doubt many people would have the balls to try that in real life.

With the proper self defense class i bet you would.   A guy has a gun to your head...either way, do it or dont do it, the out look isnt so good. 

Systema training is good for that.
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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2010, 10:27:45 AM »
Besides what use is the gun in your handbag if the attacker already has their gun at your head?

Little known but potentially very useful true fact: if someone really does have a gun against your head you will almost certainly be able to knock it away with a swift arm movement before the gun toter has time to react and fire. By the time they realise and pull the trigger, the gun will be pointing off to the side. Nobody in the movies ever tries this but it is true.
Sure...if you're jackie chan.  More than likely, even if your sucessful at attempting this (which you wouldn't be), the other person still has a gun, and you will probably get shot with round number 2.
Also, if I was the one holding the gun, it wouldn't be held to your head.  I'd be 5 or 6 steps away from you, and you'd be following my commands.
Books don't lie...the people that write them do.

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Raist

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2010, 02:30:22 PM »
When you have a gun to your head, chances are you are going to die. I seriously doubt someone could react to what you are doing and apply enough pressure to the trigger to shoot you before it's knocked away unless they are expecting the movement.

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2010, 02:40:58 PM »
When you have a gun to your head, chances are you are going to die. I seriously doubt someone could react to what you are doing and apply enough pressure to the trigger to shoot you before it's knocked away unless they are expecting the movement.
You sound like someone who's never held/fired a gun.  You don't hold it all loosey-goosey, because the gun is going to kick.  You hold it very tightly and very firmly with the utmost reverence to what your gun is doing at every second.
Books don't lie...the people that write them do.

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Raist

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2010, 07:09:40 PM »
When you have a gun to your head, chances are you are going to die. I seriously doubt someone could react to what you are doing and apply enough pressure to the trigger to shoot you before it's knocked away unless they are expecting the movement.
You sound like someone who's never held/fired a gun.  You don't hold it all loosey-goosey, because the gun is going to kick.  You hold it very tightly and very firmly with the utmost reverence to what your gun is doing at every second.

You sound like someone that has never held a firearm for more than 10 seconds while your uncle let you shoot at a target. You are assuming they are prepared to fire, when handling a gun for extended periods of time you can not keep yourself ready to fire the entire time. Your mind simply won't stay focused on that especially when you are trying to rob someone.

Yes you hold a gun tightly, but your finger is not putting pressure on the trigger until you are preparing to fire. If you hold a gun with your finger putting pressure on the trigger at all times I'm really not going shooting with you any time soon.

Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2010, 08:26:54 AM »
You sound like someone that has never held a firearm for more than 10 seconds while your uncle let you shoot at a target. You are assuming they are prepared to fire, when handling a gun for extended periods of time you can not keep yourself ready to fire the entire time. Your mind simply won't stay focused on that especially when you are trying to rob someone.

Yes you hold a gun tightly, but your finger is not putting pressure on the trigger until you are preparing to fire. If you hold a gun with your finger putting pressure on the trigger at all times I'm really not going shooting with you any time soon.

If I was robbing someone with a gun, as I said, I'd be several paces away from them.  If for some crazy reason I actually had to step within range of their attacks, and hold a gun to their head, yes, my finger would be on the trigger.
However, if you believe you're Jackie Chan, by all means, smack the gun out of the person's hand.  Good luck with that.
Books don't lie...the people that write them do.

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Raist

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Re: Thank God for California gun laws.
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2010, 12:14:25 PM »
You sound like someone that has never held a firearm for more than 10 seconds while your uncle let you shoot at a target. You are assuming they are prepared to fire, when handling a gun for extended periods of time you can not keep yourself ready to fire the entire time. Your mind simply won't stay focused on that especially when you are trying to rob someone.

Yes you hold a gun tightly, but your finger is not putting pressure on the trigger until you are preparing to fire. If you hold a gun with your finger putting pressure on the trigger at all times I'm really not going shooting with you any time soon.

If I was robbing someone with a gun, as I said, I'd be several paces away from them.  If for some crazy reason I actually had to step within range of their attacks, and hold a gun to their head, yes, my finger would be on the trigger.
However, if you believe you're Jackie Chan, by all means, smack the gun out of the person's hand.  Good luck with that.

Again, someone with a gun to someone's head can't pay attention to you forever. You don't have to be jackie chan to move faster than someone can react to. The person holding the gun would have to be jackie chan to get the shot off before you could swipe it away, that is the main reason you don't put a gun to someone's head. Holding someone at gunpoint you are at a disadvantage because you have to draw a line where you are willing to shoot someone, and you have to make sure you shoot them before they can disarm you. A gun doesn't magically make you unbeatable especially at very close quarters. There is even on record a man who had a shotgun taped to his back, but managed to turn before they could fire and the shot only grazed him.