Poll

Can we make a conscious machine?

yes
20 (76.9%)
no
6 (23.1%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Can we make a conscious machine?

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2010, 05:20:15 AM »
I don't understand why almost everyone is under the presumption that a sentient machine would draw the conclusion that ALL HUMANS ARE BAD or INFERIOR and would try to exterminate humanity. Sure the machine itself might become a super intelligence smarter than any human being. But wouldn't it in spirit of compassion try to help it's human "children" to reach their full potential?

Fucks sake it's definitely worth the risk. It's infinitely much better than we just blowing ourself up ending the human saga at nothing.
Worth the risk?  Then you speak of the bomb?  Given that the Bomb's development was "worth the risk" and you speaking so negatively of that creation, it seems you have put blinders on analyzing risk associated with a Synthetic Intelligence, especially one built of components not resembling banks of "on/off" switches, but the analog components of biologics present in every cell.  Even a single cell slime mold, an amoeba, exhibits memory and decision making.  What simple binary switch of a digital logic gate can claim that? 

Digital Von Neumann architecture will be alien in motive to those analog of biologics.  The memristor is the first synthetic construct to emulate directly the analog function of a neuronal synapse.

To hell with what humanity is.  What the heck is intelligence?  Consciousness?  If we are humans, and given that humans are dangerous, wouldn't a synthetic human be equally as dangerous?  Will a Synthetic Intelligence go mad? 

“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2010, 05:39:21 AM »
Of course it's dangerous, of course there are no gaurantees that it won't go genocidal.

But there is a huge advantage to Sentient Intelligences, consider that landing a human on Mars faces many challenges simply because humans are too fragile to be safely shot there, with SIs humanity can explore the stars without having to send clumsy buckets full of life-support systems.

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2010, 06:06:12 AM »
Of course it's dangerous, of course there are no guarantees that it won't go genocidal.

But there is a huge advantage to Sentient Intelligences, consider that landing a human on Mars faces many challenges simply because humans are too fragile to be safely shot there, with SIs humanity can explore the stars without having to send clumsy buckets full of life-support systems.
I'm all for it.  Whatever "it" is.  The potential we will shortly have due to development of the memristor will, no doubt, gain us more knowledge of our own brain's architecture and functioning as we try to give voice to the nature of self.  Jeff Hawkins' work on brain structure combined with the new capabilities inherent by the memristors coming of age will bring us, perhaps reluctantly, into Kurzweil's Age of Spiritual Machines.

Synthetic Humans?  Shouldn't we first ask, "What is human nature?"

“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2010, 08:17:24 AM »
There is a thing called a "Computer Soul" I believe it was I had a discussion about with some friends. It was pretty deep, it somehow evolved from when we were talking about the immortal jellyfish.


We talked about how thinking and your conscious mind was your soul, and we started to think about how in the future we may be able to make artificial souls for computers. Long discussion was quite long. Very revealing too..
That would be a simulation of the fabric of space-time bending back upon itself

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2010, 10:58:47 AM »
Of course it's dangerous, of course there are no guarantees that it won't go genocidal.

But there is a huge advantage to Sentient Intelligences, consider that landing a human on Mars faces many challenges simply because humans are too fragile to be safely shot there, with SIs humanity can explore the stars without having to send clumsy buckets full of life-support systems.
I'm all for it.  Whatever "it" is.  The potential we will shortly have due to development of the memristor will, no doubt, gain us more knowledge of our own brain's architecture and functioning as we try to give voice to the nature of self.  Jeff Hawkins' work on brain structure combined with the new capabilities inherent by the memristors coming of age will bring us, perhaps reluctantly, into Kurzweil's Age of Spiritual Machines.

Synthetic Humans?  Shouldn't we first ask, "What is human nature?"



You're a posthumanist too? I assumed from your first post that you were very anti-SI

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2010, 05:19:07 PM »
You're a posthumanist too? I assumed from your first post that you were very anti-SI
;D I understand.  I am doing philosophy on the subject.  Trying to examine it from all sides.  AND, as it happens in this unique case, not only examining the subject from all sides, but BEING it.  

Personally, I'm not full speed ahead anymore.  Age and experience have made me less rammy. (rammy - full on the throttle or full on the brakes, no finesse)  With things of power, -- I worked with 13,800 volt three phase electricity underground -- it is best to step back for a few minutes and at least run a checklist of precautions.  I've seen no such checklist in developing a competitor on par with human intelligence or behavior.  Here and elsewhere I'm attempting to, among other things, gage attitudes to see what a populace might allow.  

What checklist would have prevented the Twin Towers tragedy?  We are dealing with at least the same and likely more potential impact on society.  On a personal level we'll be dealing with the development of an intellectual competitor.  Considering my biologic daughter and son,  I'm not especially enthralled by my own abilities in bringing them to adulthood so I advance for caution in bringing the synthetic to full consciousness.  Whatever that means.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 05:21:26 PM by minorwork »
“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2010, 05:08:06 AM »
My checklist would include-
-limited information access - Too much information at once without the necessary cognitive filters could wildly distort the SI's perception of the world.
-An 'abort' option should be available until the SI reaches maturity, after which point this must be removed if SI-human relations are to be anything more than master and slave.
-Create more than one. - If an SI is to understand itself it will need other members of its 'species' to interact with. Without them it will always see itself as an outsider which is a serious risk.
-Don't give it access to the nuclear trigger - You wouldn't trust your five-year-old son with the big red button so why trust your new SI with it?.

 

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2010, 06:40:14 AM »
My checklist would include-
-limited information access - Too much information at once without the necessary cognitive filters could wildly distort the SI's perception of the world.
-An 'abort' option should be available until the SI reaches maturity, after which point this must be removed if SI-human relations are to be anything more than master and slave.
-Create more than one. - If an SI is to understand itself it will need other members of its 'species' to interact with. Without them it will always see itself as an outsider which is a serious risk.
-Don't give it access to the nuclear trigger - You wouldn't trust your five-year-old son with the big red button so why trust your new SI with it?.

 

-Don't give it access to the nuclear trigger - You wouldn't trust your five-year-old son with the big red button so why trust your new SI with it?.

THIS!

Also, don't give it internet unti somebody has sat down and had a long discussion with it about 4chan and what it is and what it isn't.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

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Parsifal

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2010, 06:42:49 AM »
Also, don't give it internet unti somebody has sat down and had a long discussion with it about 4chan and what it is and what it isn't.

Oh God. An intelligent computer exposed to 4chan and only 4chan for five years would be awesome.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2010, 07:02:36 PM »
...that's certainly not a term I'd use!

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2010, 07:06:34 PM »
The need for caution is thus revealed.
“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2010, 03:33:37 PM »
Many machines are conscious, their consciousness is just different to ours.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2010, 03:48:48 PM »
Many machines are conscious, their consciousness is just different to ours.
I would disagree with this statement. would you consider a calculator a conscious machine?
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2010, 05:34:29 PM »
Many machines are conscious, their consciousness is just different to ours.
A sufficiently broad definition loses meaning.  My left foot big toe nail is conscious, just different than yours.   ???
“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2010, 05:38:08 PM »
Many machines are conscious, their consciousness is just different to ours.
I would disagree with this statement. would you consider a calculator a conscious machine?

Yes.

Many machines are conscious, their consciousness is just different to ours.
A sufficiently broad definition loses meaning.  My left foot big toe nail is conscious, just different than yours.   ???

Your toe nail is not a machine.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2010, 05:39:32 PM »
Many machines are conscious, their consciousness is just different to ours.
I would disagree with this statement. would you consider a calculator a conscious machine?

Yes.

?
So this is conscious?
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2010, 05:42:06 PM »
Is it a calculator?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2010, 05:45:09 PM »
“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2010, 05:45:32 PM »
It has no memory, so how can it be conscious?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2010, 05:47:51 PM »
It has no memory, so how can it be conscious?
you never said it needed memory. what is you definition of memory?
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2010, 05:59:57 PM »
It has no memory, so how can it be conscious?
you never said it needed memory. what is you definition of memory?

I define memory as the ability to remember. Do you have a different definition?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2010, 06:01:46 PM »
It has no memory, so how can it be conscious?
you never said it needed memory. what is you definition of memory?

I define memory as the ability to remember. Do you have a different definition?
Um that seems like a circular definition.  the most scientific one I am guessing is the ability to store previous inputs.
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2010, 06:02:51 PM »
What is your definition of an input?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2010, 06:04:11 PM »
It has no memory, so how can it be conscious?
If a calculator is conscious (as you claim) and if consciousness requires a memory (your implication) and the Curta is a calculator, then the Curta has a memory just different than ours.
“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2010, 06:06:19 PM »
What is your definition of an input?
something that affects it. from itself to outside forces. note I did not say stored all inputs.
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2010, 06:12:24 PM »
What is your definition of an input?
something that affects it. from itself to outside forces. note I did not say stored all inputs.

Well then a leaf has the ability to store inputs. This seems like too nebulous a definition. Could you redefine input?
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2010, 06:24:20 PM »
What is your definition of an input?
something that affects it. from itself to outside forces. note I did not say stored all inputs.

Well then a leaf has the ability to store inputs. This seems like too nebulous a definition. Could you redefine input?
it is hard to be more specific then that. does a book have memory? if yes then what is the difference between that and the ground storing foot prints. if no then what is the difference between that and a hard drive storing things on magnets?
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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James

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2010, 06:39:14 PM »
What is your definition of an input?
something that affects it. from itself to outside forces. note I did not say stored all inputs.

Well then a leaf has the ability to store inputs. This seems like too nebulous a definition. Could you redefine input?
it is hard to be more specific then that. does a book have memory? if yes then what is the difference between that and the ground storing foot prints. if no then what is the difference between that and a hard drive storing things on magnets?

It seems there are many things in the universe which we do not yet understand.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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minorwork

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Re: Can we make a conscious machine?
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2010, 06:42:15 PM »
If there is no difference to be aware of then consciousness can not manifest.  Memory is vital to consciousness.  The Curta calculator has memory, albeit, of a mechanical sort  comparable to the CMOS program built into every computer to boot itself up by.  The Curta's built, geared relationships within is such a memory.  But conscious?  I may be forced to it.  After all a single cell slime mold, an amoeba, exhibits signs of memory without a nervous system.

A mechanical consciousness is different than a biologic.  But the memristor's mimicking of the biologic might certainly lead to classifying of consciousness by types.
“In the absence of willpower the most complete collection of virtues and talents is wholly worthless. “ ~ Aleister Crowley