Where were your shoes made?(political)

Hello,
  Just wondering where the shoes you own were made, and what you consider the implication of the fact they were made where they were.
  I like reeboks.  They are made in communist China.  I like reebok for many reasons, mostly durability.  I used to be a Nike guy, but too many pairs just fell apart on me.
  I realize that by purchasing these shoes I am indirectly supporting communism.  However, I also realize that China allows some business operate in a very free-market way.

  I think it's weird that it's cheaper that I can buy shoes which are made across the world for less than can be bought here.  Why is it cheaper to ship shoes into America than to just make them here?

In fact, just about all of my clothing is made somewhere in Asia.
I guess I'm helping feed families all over the world.

What about you?

Wooden clogs. I chisel them myself.

Wooden clogs. I chisel them myself.

lol, nice.

Clogs are awesome, I shit you not.

You can kick someone in the crotch, and:
1. You don't feel it
2. They get splinters

However, I also realize that China allows some business operate in a very free-market way.

I don't think its Very free-market way. Maybe fairly free-market. If in non-communist India it takes ten some years to go officially Bankrupt, I doubt Communist China lets very free market happen.

I have new balance, I don't know where they make those.

The ones I am wearing right now were made in Germany, though I had to look it up to be sure. My running shoes are made in China and most of my other ones are probably made somewhere in Asia as well.

I am pretty sure that most of my everyday clothes are made in Asia, with the exception of my suits and some of my sports gear.

I'm wearing crocs that say they're made in italy.

I have some addidas running shoes made in Vietnam!

To answer Mizzles question about why....labour is far cheaper in China and India. That's why we don't manufacture anything anymore, can't compete with the cheap labour costs. Same for America too. We want cheap goods - although trainers/ sneakers are not cheap so someone is making a big profit there.

The ones I am wearing right now were made in Germany, though I had to look it up to be sure. My running shoes are made in China and most of my other ones are probably made somewhere in Asia as well.

I am pretty sure that most of my everyday clothes are made in Asia, with the exception of my suits and some of my sports gear.

And the implications of this?
What are the positive/negative aspects of purchasing goods from these places?

Quote from: Friedrich on March 29, 2010, 10:58:37 PM

The ones I am wearing right now were made in Germany, though I had to look it up to be sure. My running shoes are made in China and most of my other ones are probably made somewhere in Asia as well.

I am pretty sure that most of my everyday clothes are made in Asia, with the exception of my suits and some of my sports gear.

And the implications of this?
What are the positive/negative aspects of purchasing goods from these places?

I think it's pretty clear what the implications are. Business goes where the money is. They outsource production to those countries, because labour costs are far lower there. It's a logical thing to do if money is your only concern.

I think the positive/negative aspects have been discussed to death over the years, but personally I think that it's the peoples own fault. If they don't want outsourcing they have to stop buying products not made in their home country.

I'm wearing crocs that say they're made in italy.

I have some addidas running shoes made in Vietnam!

To answer Mizzles question about why....labour is far cheaper in China and India. That's why we don't manufacture anything anymore, can't compete with the cheap labour costs. Same for America too. We want cheap goods - although trainers/ sneakers are not cheap so someone is making a big profit there.

I agree.  Although, I don't feel labor is the only cost prohibitive reason.  Why is the labour cheaper there than in the US/UK?

My concern is not to do with the economy, but rather the exploitation. People work for lower wages in those other countries, so their quality of life is lower. That's exploitation of the poor by the wealthy.

Quote from: Mizzle on March 29, 2010, 11:07:48 PM

Quote from: Friedrich on March 29, 2010, 10:58:37 PM

The ones I am wearing right now were made in Germany, though I had to look it up to be sure. My running shoes are made in China and most of my other ones are probably made somewhere in Asia as well.

I am pretty sure that most of my everyday clothes are made in Asia, with the exception of my suits and some of my sports gear.

And the implications of this?
What are the positive/negative aspects of purchasing goods from these places?

I think it's pretty clear what the implications are. Business goes where the money is. They outsource production to those countries, because labour costs are far lower there. It's a logical thing to do if money is your only concern.

I think the positive/negative aspects have been discussed to death over the years, but personally I think that it's the peoples own fault. If they don't want outsourcing they have to stop buying products not made in their home country.

Right, I totally agree with the idea of voting with your dollars (free market).
Why is it their own 'fault?'  I haven't seen a victim in this situation yet.  Are you saying there is something wrong with it?

My concern is not to do with the economy, but rather the exploitation. People work for lower wages in those other countries, so their quality of life is lower. That's exploitation of the poor by the wealthy.

I think this is pretty accurate.  But it's double edged.  Clearly if their governments allowed unions, they could organize (not saying they do or don't).  However, if the cost of labor went up, wouldn't there have been no outsource jobs there in the first place?

And you didn't answer where your shoes are from ;-)

Quote from: Friedrich on March 29, 2010, 11:12:07 PM

Quote from: Mizzle on March 29, 2010, 11:07:48 PM

Quote from: Friedrich on March 29, 2010, 10:58:37 PM

The ones I am wearing right now were made in Germany, though I had to look it up to be sure. My running shoes are made in China and most of my other ones are probably made somewhere in Asia as well.

I am pretty sure that most of my everyday clothes are made in Asia, with the exception of my suits and some of my sports gear.

And the implications of this?
What are the positive/negative aspects of purchasing goods from these places?

I think it's pretty clear what the implications are. Business goes where the money is. They outsource production to those countries, because labour costs are far lower there. It's a logical thing to do if money is your only concern.

I think the positive/negative aspects have been discussed to death over the years, but personally I think that it's the peoples own fault. If they don't want outsourcing they have to stop buying products not made in their home country.

Right, I totally agree with the idea of voting with your dollars (free market).
Why is it their own 'fault?'  I haven't seen a victim in this situation yet.  Are you saying there is something wrong with it?

You don't have to try to lead me on. I agree that there is something wrong with the situation. In fact there are a lot of things wrong.

For one I agree with Parsifal. The people in those countries are being exploited, working for chump change in horrible conditions. The impact at home is also quite clear. A big company close to where I live has shut down over half of it's production capability here and moved it to China, after being here for most of the 20th century. A lot of people lost their jobs.

Also in india (even though it's illegal) children as young as ten work 12 hours a day making clothes for western malls. India is a strange one because there are many wealthy people in india but the poor are still very poor. Over population compared to GDP is one cause. I won't buy clothes from certain cut price clothing stores because I know that they are being made by children in sweatshops but look at it the other way - without those poorly paid illegal jobs those children and their families won't eat. The only solution is that we pay more for our clothes and they get paid more. it won't happen though.

Like America, Britain doesn't make anything anymore, can't compete with labour costs. Also though we have another problem in the factories we do have here. Factory owners have stopped employing british workers preferring instead to employ eastern europeans through agencies, because they don't complain if working law is broken. They'll also work long hours for minimum wage. It's an issue now because the unemployed are asking why those jobs are never advertised. One company is about to be prosecuted for advertising factory jobs and requiring applicants to sepak polish, or not apply. That's illegal in the uk.

Like America, Britain doesn't make anything anymore, can't compete with labour costs. Also though we have another problem in the factories we do have here. Factory owners have stopped employing british workers preferring instead to employ eastern europeans through agencies, because they don't complain if working law is broken. They'll also work long hours for minimum wage. It's an issue now because the unemployed are asking why those jobs are never advertised. One company is about to be prosecuted for advertising factory jobs and requiring applicants to sepak polish, or not apply. That's illegal in the uk.

I agree mostly, though our problem here is not so much the amount of production (We were the #2 exporting nation after China 2009) or the fact that too many foreigners are being employed. The main problem is the fact that many German companies produce most of their products in Asia, then ship the parts to Germany and assemble them here. Effectively making them "Made in Germany", while in reality 90% of the process was done in Asia.

I think this is pretty accurate.  But it's double edged.  Clearly if their governments allowed unions, they could organize (not saying they do or don't).  However, if the cost of labor went up, wouldn't there have been no outsource jobs there in the first place?

The outsourcing itself is unimportant to me. I don't care for political boundaries; in fact, I think they are a hindrance to progress. So the outsourcing is not an issue from my perspective. What is an issue is the exploitation involved.

And you didn't answer where your shoes are from ;-)

I actually don't know. I just buy whatever I can afford; as a currently unemployed student, I'm not in a position to be picky about brand, so I usually end up with some generic one.

Everyone knows about the exploitation from the government down but no-one seriously wants to do anything about it - all in the name of not stiffling growth. People are exploited in other ways too. China is getting it's hands on lots of cheap mineral ores in Africa for example by promising schools and social amenities to local people in return. In reality they are getting a great deal while Africans are getting a poor deal. When the massacres were happening in Darfur, the main reason the UN couldn't get involved is because China are buying all the oil in Somalia and would have vetoed any attempt by the UN to go in there. Again commerce before humanity.

Everyone knows about the exploitation from the government down but no-one seriously wants to do anything about it - all in the name of not stiffling growth. People are exploited in other ways too. China is getting it's hands on lots of cheap mineral ores in Africa for example by promising schools and social amenities to local people in return. In reality they are getting a great deal while Africans are getting a poor deal. When the massacres were happening in Darfur, the main reason the UN couldn't get involved is because China are buying all the oil in Somalia and would have vetoed any attempt by the UN to go in there. Again commerce before humanity.

This is one reason I advocate the total abolition of political boundaries. Elimination of geographical politics would eliminate politically motivated wars, as well as the oppression of poor countries by rich ones.

Like America, Britain doesn't make anything anymore, can't compete with labour costs. Also though we have another problem in the factories we do have here. Factory owners have stopped employing british workers preferring instead to employ eastern europeans through agencies, because they don't complain if working law is broken. They'll also work long hours for minimum wage. It's an issue now because the unemployed are asking why those jobs are never advertised. One company is about to be prosecuted for advertising factory jobs and requiring applicants to sepak polish, or not apply. That's illegal in the uk.

Other than the language thing, the same thing happens here in the US with immigrants.  Sure, some immigrants are illegal, and some work for less than minimum wage.  But the real problem is that for some unknown reason, people in America (and the UK, I gather) feel they are entitled to higher wages than the rest of the world.

A lot of people here feel that minimum wage is unjustifiably low (I think any minimum is unjustifiable) without seeing the other side of the coin.  Most people coming right out of secondary school don't have any marketable skill set whatsoever.  Any training to actually perform their job is provided by the employer, and these kids are unlikely to keep their jobs for very long.
The real problem with America is it's practically impossible to legally have a micro-business.  Basically, enough income to feed yourself and your family.  Even to cut another person's hair, you have to go through beauty school and be liscensed here in Virginia.  You cannot legally charge people money for haircuts unless you have done these two things.  As you might imagine, the initial training and requirements for such a business can be very expensive.
You might be very good at cutting hair, and you could do such a business out of your own home for $5 a cut, but it's illegal, so you can't.
This is just one example of many that attribute to the poor staying poor.

This is the problem with fascism.  Those in power stay in power, not by the justification of their legitimate businesses, but by the outlawing of the competition.  If it's too expensive to compete, or illegal to compete, there will be no competition.

Quote from: EarthISroundISproven on March 29, 2010, 11:59:22 PM

Everyone knows about the exploitation from the government down but no-one seriously wants to do anything about it - all in the name of not stiffling growth. People are exploited in other ways too. China is getting it's hands on lots of cheap mineral ores in Africa for example by promising schools and social amenities to local people in return. In reality they are getting a great deal while Africans are getting a poor deal. When the massacres were happening in Darfur, the main reason the UN couldn't get involved is because China are buying all the oil in Somalia and would have vetoed any attempt by the UN to go in there. Again commerce before humanity.

This is one reason I advocate the total abolition of political boundaries. Elimination of geographical politics would eliminate politically motivated wars, as well as the oppression of poor countries by rich ones.

It is a real shame that more developed countries finance wars and genocide in the lesser developed areas of the world.
Every developed country in the world is guilty of this, yet in the eyes of the people in the developed world, our governments are benevolent.
I don't see how a one-world government could fix these problems.  If you're not arguing for this, it certainly looks like you are.
We could stop china in it's tracks if we wanted:  The chinese people could revolt!  Oh, wait.  They're disarmed.  Looks like they have to do whatever their evil government tells them.  I truly wish they didn't.
Just like the rest of the world, everyone here has voted with their dollars/Euros/pounds to finance these activities.

I don't see how a one-world government could fix these problems.  If you're not arguing for this, it certainly looks like you are.

Not at all. I am opposing governments having a monopoly over one area of land, however big or small that area might be. The only solutions to this that I can see are anarchy and multigovernment. I support the latter.

We could stop china in it's tracks if we wanted:  The chinese people could revolt!  Oh, wait.  They're disarmed.  Looks like they have to do whatever their evil government tells them.  I truly wish they didn't.

Don't kid yourself. Every country on Earth does this in some way or other; some of them are more subtle about it than others.

Our minimum wage is barely enough to cover basic living costs. It's set at that level not because we expect higher wages than the rest of the world but because the cost of living IS higher than the rest of the world. It's relative. But people DO want those minimum wage jobs esp school leaving looking maybe for their first job. It's the emloyers who don't want to abide by employments laws. It's the same issue with the building trade. Instead of taking on apprentices on minimum wage they employ poles who they can pay have the going rate of a british skilled builder. The result is that 25% of our 16 to 24 year olds are unemployed, unable to get training or a first job.

We do suffer the same 'bits of paper' burocrasy as you guys though. You can't learn a skill on the job anymore and then go do it. You need to take a test for this and then that and so on. Everyones frightened of getting sued so you can't do this and you can't do that. You have to prove your qualified so you can be insured. Even I, in spite of having a first class degree and years of experience now suddenly need a masters before I can teach or a teacher training qualification. Yet 15 years ago my degree was enough to lecture university students. Suddenly I am not qualified to tell a bunch of students about rocks, because I don't have a teacher training degree. It's bs.

It's not fascim though. There'd be no market place in facism. But it is a nanny state that crushes enterprise.

Quote from: Mizzle on March 30, 2010, 12:13:08 AM

I don't see how a one-world government could fix these problems.  If you're not arguing for this, it certainly looks like you are.

Not at all. I am opposing governments having a monopoly over one area of land, however big or small that area might be. The only solutions to this that I can see are anarchy and multigovernment. I support the latter.

Quote from: Mizzle on March 30, 2010, 12:13:08 AM

We could stop china in it's tracks if we wanted:  The chinese people could revolt!  Oh, wait.  They're disarmed.  Looks like they have to do whatever their evil government tells them.  I truly wish they didn't.

Don't kid yourself. Every country on Earth does this in some way or other; some of them are more subtle about it than others.

What is it they say? 80% of the World's wealth is owned by just 1% of the population and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. And yet goverments do keep us pre-occuppied with wars and climate change so that we won't focus too much on the inequality keeping some of us miserable. I agree that there has to be a better fairer way of organising things, where effort is rewarded in equal measure. Just can't see that kind of change coming about though.

Our minimum wage is barely enough to cover basic living costs. It's set at that level not because we expect higher wages than the rest of the world but because the cost of living IS higher than the rest of the world. It's relative. But people DO want those minimum wage jobs esp school leaving looking maybe for their first job. It's the emloyers who don't want to abide by employments laws. It's the same issue with the building trade. Instead of taking on apprentices on minimum wage they employ poles who they can pay have the going rate of a british skilled builder. The result is that 25% of our 16 to 24 year olds are unemployed, unable to get training or a first job.

We do suffer the same 'bits of paper' burocrasy as you guys though. You can't learn a skill on the job anymore and then go do it. You need to take a test for this and then that and so on. Everyones frightened of getting sued so you can't do this and you can't do that. You have to prove your qualified so you can be insured. Even I, in spite of having a first class degree and years of experience now suddenly need a masters before I can teach or a teacher training qualification. Yet 15 years ago my degree was enough to lecture university students. Suddenly I am not qualified to tell a bunch of students about rocks, because I don't have a teacher training degree. It's bs.

It's not fascim though. There'd be no market place in facism. But it is a nanny state that crushes enterprise.

Perhaps in your country it's not fascism, but in the US it is.
Again, the Poles also live in that area.  Its not possible to work in the UK and live in Poland.  They may be temporary, but for the time being, their wages are obviously enough to sustain them.
I make a considerable amount of money for my age, I am very fortunate.  I could easily afford to have a nice 3 bedroom home in this area, in a decently affluent part of town.  This would however, cost me about 60% of my take home income.  I've decided this is too much money to spend on a place to live.  I instead spend about 15% of my total take home pay on living expenses, which includes all utilities and amenities.
How do I do this?  I have 6 roommates.  In a large 4 bedroom abode, there are 3 couples and 1 single guy all splitting everything.  This is clearly not the most comfortable situation, but it helps everyone save money for the future and have more of the other luxuries in life.
Anyone else have 6 room mates?

My shoes are made from China as well.

Its not the fact that I'm feeding communism, I'm actually not begrudged at all towards communism, even though I disagree with it....I feel bad because I'm feeding a tyrannical dictatorship....

Quote from: EarthISroundISproven on March 30, 2010, 12:22:05 AM

Our minimum wage is barely enough to cover basic living costs. It's set at that level not because we expect higher wages than the rest of the world but because the cost of living IS higher than the rest of the world. It's relative. But people DO want those minimum wage jobs esp school leaving looking maybe for their first job. It's the emloyers who don't want to abide by employments laws. It's the same issue with the building trade. Instead of taking on apprentices on minimum wage they employ poles who they can pay have the going rate of a british skilled builder. The result is that 25% of our 16 to 24 year olds are unemployed, unable to get training or a first job.

We do suffer the same 'bits of paper' burocrasy as you guys though. You can't learn a skill on the job anymore and then go do it. You need to take a test for this and then that and so on. Everyones frightened of getting sued so you can't do this and you can't do that. You have to prove your qualified so you can be insured. Even I, in spite of having a first class degree and years of experience now suddenly need a masters before I can teach or a teacher training qualification. Yet 15 years ago my degree was enough to lecture university students. Suddenly I am not qualified to tell a bunch of students about rocks, because I don't have a teacher training degree. It's bs.

It's not fascim though. There'd be no market place in facism. But it is a nanny state that crushes enterprise.

Perhaps in your country it's not fascism, but in the US it is.
Again, the Poles also live in that area.  Its not possible to work in the UK and live in Poland.  They may be temporary, but for the time being, their wages are obviously enough to sustain them.
I make a considerable amount of money for my age, I am very fortunate.  I could easily afford to have a nice 3 bedroom home in this area, in a decently affluent part of town.  This would however, cost me about 60% of my take home income.  I've decided this is too much money to spend on a place to live.  I instead spend about 15% of my total take home pay on living expenses, which includes all utilities and amenities.
How do I do this?  I have 6 roommates.  In a large 4 bedroom abode, there are 3 couples and 1 single guy all splitting everything.  This is clearly not the most comfortable situation, but it helps everyone save money for the future and have more of the other luxuries in life.
Anyone else have 6 room mates?

I had 7 roommates for quite some time while doing military service. That made it clear for me that I don't want that ever again.

Quote from: Parsifal on March 30, 2010, 12:17:24 AM

Quote from: Mizzle on March 30, 2010, 12:13:08 AM

I don't see how a one-world government could fix these problems.  If you're not arguing for this, it certainly looks like you are.

Not at all. I am opposing governments having a monopoly over one area of land, however big or small that area might be. The only solutions to this that I can see are anarchy and multigovernment. I support the latter.

Quote from: Mizzle on March 30, 2010, 12:13:08 AM

We could stop china in it's tracks if we wanted:  The chinese people could revolt!  Oh, wait.  They're disarmed.  Looks like they have to do whatever their evil government tells them.  I truly wish they didn't.

Don't kid yourself. Every country on Earth does this in some way or other; some of them are more subtle about it than others.

What is it they say? 80% of the World's wealth is owned by just 1% of the population and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. And yet goverments do keep us pre-occuppied with wars and climate change so that we won't focus too much on the inequality keeping some of us miserable. I agree that there has to be a better fairer way of organising things, where effort is rewarded in equal measure. Just can't see that kind of change coming about though.

Clearly the governments of the world have done nothing to change this.  Why would they?  The people in the higher levels of government are part of that 1%!!!  Why put your faith in a system that has not only failed you, but refused to even attempt to change the status quo?
The best part is, if you don't like it, tough beans, buddy!  There's no way out, there's no way out, there's no way out.  You're trapped!
The ultra rich control the world.  Why do you think most people in the US hate Iran?  What has Iran really ever done to us here on our own soil?  Nothing!  They don't imprison our own people for drug addiction, or refusing to pay their taxes.  That's what OUR government does to US!  But because we have villified them in the media and top levels of government, they HAVE to be the enemy.
This is the problem with the will of the majority, aka, Democracy.  It creates angry mobs that feel justified on the simple ground that they are an angry mob!

Clogs are awesome, I shit you not.

You can kick someone in the crotch, and:
1. You don't feel it
2. They get splinters

Also, when it is wet, the water does not soak through to your socks like with other ordinary shoes.