Flat Earth Shape / Map

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Iris

Flat Earth Shape / Map
« on: March 03, 2010, 10:43:06 AM »
I'm new to the forum and thought I’d add this new topic regarding the shape of the flat earth as it surfaces in a lot of discussions along with questions regarding the pursuit of a flat earth map.  Incidentally, most people go through life unaware that the word “maps” spelled backwards is ‘spam.’  Think about what that suggests.

Generally I think Flat Earthers are skeptical of map making, and for good reason.  Historically, maps are riddled with deceit, certainly the cartographers who make them are prone to emphasize some things and hide or ignore others.  I suppose though it’s actually the patrons who determine the truths their maps will tell, and often it is not the truth of the land. Curiously, the lies in maps are perpetuated through years of cartography.  I think of the belief in the 16th and 17th century that there was a river and several lakes running through the centre of the continent of North America leading to a large inland body of salt water, the Ocean of the West, that in turn led into the Pacific Ocean.  Cartographers and explorers were so desperate to convince those who could finance expeditions that there was indeed a passage through North America to reach the Pacific (and India and China) that the maps they made began to hold their own grain of truth, the truth of faith.  Maps were copied and changed by cartographers as new information arrived, and some things continued to appear in maps even long after others had discovered truths, yet the old truths, the lies, remained.

As part of my ongoing research regarding Flat Earth theory and ideas, I looked at several versions of flat earth maps.  I came across an alternative shape that I think bears some consideration. Consider this polyhedron – a series of flat triangles that can take on 3-dimensional form when folded. When I explored this idea and began to mark the known corners of the flat earth on it, I realized that every one of them came near an edge when the map was folded.  In this image (see link), I’ve marked the location of the corners with dots... and you can see how each one falls near a folded edge or point.  I was fascinated by this peculiar hybrid of both 3 dimensional object and 2 dimensional form.  So I offer this for thought to the Flat Earth Believers.  Might it be a possibility?  Or are we only perpetuating the confines of globularist thinking if we constantly try to justify our knowledge through the creation of maps, which have a history of being a construct for deception? 

Image link:
http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad288/iristaylor/dottedmap.jpg


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17 November

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Re: Flat Earth Shape / Map
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 04:48:01 PM »
The most odd thing in your inquiry is the arbitrariness of the location of the "known corners." Did you arrive at the "known corners" from the literature of the old Raymond Fraser group?

Based upon the following two websites, I have a question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Burns
http://www.itaylorresearch.com/fes.html

Not to be offensive, but do you honestly seriously believe the earth is flat or is your "Flat Earth Society" more of a philosophical project similar to the old Flat Earth Society of Canada?

As far as shape, there are two basic schools of thought of which I am aware:

1 - the world according to Samuel Birley Rowbotham which the thinking of the majority of this website is geared towards

2 - the world according to more ancient flat earth models (early Christian and pre-Christian) which have many common characteristics

The only users on this forum who adhere to the latter (of whom I aware) are levee and myself.

By the way, I am personally a member of your Flat Earth Society.

+Dionysios

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John Davis

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Re: Flat Earth Shape / Map
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 01:10:17 AM »
The Earth is an infinite flat plane with a map similar (but not exactly) like that of the UN Logo.

The lack of a proper map is the most concerning (to me) issue with FET today.  We need a map and I don't think theres anything wrong with trying to find an accurate one.  However its obviously beyond the societies current means.


Quantum Ab Hoc

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17 November

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Re: Flat Earth Shape / Map
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 08:05:07 PM »
Quote from: John Davis
The lack of a proper map is the most concerning (to me) issue with FET today.  We need a map and I don't think theres anything wrong with trying to find an accurate one.  However its obviously beyond the societies current means.

It seems to me that an aversion to the knowledge and insight of pre-Rowbotham flat earth cosmology is the chief obstacle to the consideration of inclusion of characteristics on flat earth maps which would tend to alleviate that issue. 

Three areas of a world map which can benefit chiefly from this are:

1) The arctic ocean because post renaissance maps tend to exclude characteristics such as the northern mountain (around which the sun and moon revolve) and islands of earlier maps.  This appears to be the easier of the two to conceive.  Mercator included this in his chart of the arctic.
http://www.helmink.com/Antique_Map_Mercator_North_Pole_2/

2) The precise outline of outlying areas closer to an outer earth or perimeter of the world including the place, size and shape of islands and land masses such as antarctica and any "rings."  I have not looked into this extensively, but levee's ideas on this are worth consideration.  One ancient cartographical concept that was discarded by the renaissance and its heirs is the concept of 'Terra Australis' which seemed to actually be confirmed by the discovery of so-called antarctica.  Research into 'Terra Australis' might give insight into what has come to be known as antarctica.

3) In accordance with the custom of ancient maps, the orientation of the whole world map to the east (as opposed to the north) which would mean the Garden of Eden at the very top of the map (furthest east).  The Indian Ocean (not the Pacific) located at the upper part of the map with the eurasian-african landmass south of it with India top centre and east africa and china to India's right and left respectively while europe and west africa comprise the lower left and lower right parts of the central landmass.  This eurasian-african landmass is the earth itself, and should occupy the centre of the map with Jerusalem at the very centre.  The arctic north and the mountain around which the sun and moon revolve should be located to the left of the central landmass (closest to Siberia) with north america located to the left of the arctic.  Southamerica should be located to the west (down on the map) from Spain and west africa.  Hawaii should appear in the ocean in the upper left part of the map as would Australia.  This is a basic orientation which can be used as a basis or framework to build upon by investigating such things as the delineation of antarctica and outer rings. 

Detailed knowledge of a living tradition of flat earth cosmography with a continuous unbroken historical link to the distant past would be quite valuable.  Such a tradition exists today among the Jains of India.  A detailed knowledge of Jain flat earth cosmography might assist in the discovery and reconstruction of a flat earth map.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Flat Earth Shape / Map
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2010, 09:04:58 AM »
I would love to see us expand the resources in the repository so that it includes more ancient and oriental Flat Earth cosmologies and models. I feel that aside from any insight we could gain from them (which might be considerable), it's important that we chart the history and progression of Flat Earth Theory, in its many distinct forms. Can you recommend any particular ancient texts with FE cosmologies? I think it would be great if we could work on some kind of master topic (similar to the FAQ) outlining and sourcing such cosmological models.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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17 November

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Re: Flat Earth Shape / Map
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 05:46:27 PM »
I would love to see us expand the resources in the repository so that it includes more ancient and oriental Flat Earth cosmologies and models. I feel that aside from any insight we could gain from them (which might be considerable), it's important that we chart the history and progression of Flat Earth Theory, in its many distinct forms. Can you recommend any particular ancient texts with FE cosmologies? I think it would be great if we could work on some kind of master topic (similar to the FAQ) outlining and sourcing such cosmological models.

I absolutely concur.  

For starters, as references the first which come to mind are a highly biased but informative late nineteenth century two volume work by a skull and Bones member (which is online) entitled

'The History of the Warfare Between Science and Theology Within Christendom'
By A.E. Waite
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/
Among other chapters, especially relevant are his chapters on the "Form of the Earth" and the "Delineation of the Earth"
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/geography/form.html
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/geography/delineation.html

I have read that Waite came across this voluminous amount of detailed information not primarily due to his own research but because of his membership or affiliation to a nineteenth century secret society known as the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor or one of its front organizations it was deliberately supplied to him in order to present all these facts in a format with an ardently anti-Christian bias.  Unfortunately, there may extensive references in the footnotes which are not included in the online edition.  Anyway, it has a lot of information on ancient flat earth beliefs worldwide - probably more than any book in english until the fairly recent publication of a four volume work by the University of Chicago Press entitled:

'The History of Cartography, Volume 1:
Cartography in Prehistoric, Ancient, and Medieval Europe and the Mediterranean'
Edited by J. B. Harley
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=3620863
http://books.google.com/books?id=uJaP4i7-_MIC&dq=the+history+of+cartography+harley&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=lTG5S-jpApXs9QTIicnqAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

'The History of Cartography, Volume 2 Book 1
Cartography in the Traditional Islamic and South Asian Societies'
Edited By J. B. Harley
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=3625863
http://books.google.com/books?id=ocoV2iI4vcoC&pg=PP1&dq=the+history+of+cartography+harley&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

'The History of Cartography, Volume 2 book 2
Cartography in the Traditional East and Southeast Asian Societies'
Edited By J. B. Harley
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=3617125

'The History of Cartography Volume 2 Book 3
Cartography in the Traditional African, American, Arctic, Australian, and Pacific Societies'
Edited by J. B. Harley
http://www.geography.wisc.edu/histcart/series.html#v2b3
http://books.google.com/books?id=k_NoubO0RiYC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=the+history+of+cartography+harley&source=bl&ots=LVR4lWOiXn&sig=MLrXTVNJxViGm0NsXsS5XCtB8LI&hl=en&ei=lTG5S-jpApXs9QTIicnqAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=the%20history%20of%20cartography%20harley&f=false

I bought these at lower prices shortly after they first appeared, but they are presently with most of my library at my godfather's house in Greece, but they seem to have superceeded Waite's significant two volume work.  These four volumes are excellent, fully illustrated with pictures of flat earth cosmologies in India and elsewhere, et cetera.

When I get time, I will try to post some of this kind of information using the old Lord Byron files as a starting point.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 06:13:08 PM by 17 November »

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17 November

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Re: Flat Earth Shape / Map
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 05:58:35 PM »
Incidentally, although many Jain and ancient hindu maps and sources place Mount Mehru (around which the sun and moon revolve) in the himalayas, Rene Guenon has noted that the most ancient hindu sources place Mount Mehru in a far northern location which corroborates the ancient Christian and other beliefs of its location.  Perhaps, I will subsequently establish a thread in Information Repository exclusively for information pertaining to the arctic north along the lines of what Sandokhan did on the .net site and do the same for other aspects of cartography.

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17 November

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The Deeds of Alexander
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 10:31:07 AM »
'The Deeds of Alexander' of Macedon by his contemporary historian Callisthenes of Olynthus is a major source of ancient flat earth cosmography.  Modern historians obviously reject it as myth and even reject Callisthenes's authorship of the book ascribing it instead to a mythical author of the second century after Christ which is merely the date of the oldest known manuscript of this work.  Nowadays known as the 'Romance of Alexander,' Callisthenes book was a major source for the flat earth cosmography of the fourth century Scythian (Russian) Christian traveller Aethicus of Istria whose cosmography has apparently been translated into english by M. W. Herren and is awaiting publication by Oxford Medieval Texts.

This pre-Christian history by Callisthenes was accepted as truth by Christian, pagan, and muslim traditions.  It is less than two hundred pages and packed with cosmographical information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisthenes
http://www.livius.org/caa-can/callisthenes/callisthenes.html

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609