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Ask a Christian anything.

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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1140 on: June 10, 2010, 10:06:04 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 10, 2010, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
I think that you are correct on all your points, but why would this mean that God is not just? Has he not given us a way out of the situation you described?
A way out? That would imply the existence of free will, which you yourself have admitted we do not have. In your narrative, we are nothing but puppets, our entire lives pre-ordained before we are even born.

But we have the illusion of free will, which as far as you and I are concerned is sufficient. Though God knew everything I would ever do and thus preordained that it would happen by simply setting the universe into motion, it does not in any way excuse me from the sins I commit, since I myself do not know everything that the future holds. Likewise, you must assume that you are one of the elect. Rejecting God on the grounds that "God already knew I wouldn't accept him" doesn't justify your decision.
I don't buy that. In the Christian view, sin is a choice: a choice to act selfishly or against God. If you have no true free will, you cannot make a choice. How can you go against God's plan if -by the pre-ordination of every second of your existence- every thought, action and breath you take is God's plan?

Also, what I assume is meaningless if my entire life is preordained. Either I will do the "right" things and go to Heaven, or I will do the "wrong" things and go to Hell, these paths were set in stone aeons before I existed. In the absence of free will, nothing I think or assume matters (if thought can truly be called thought without a mind capable of decisions).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 10:12:19 PM by Myjafjallajokul »
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General Douchebag

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1141 on: June 10, 2010, 10:37:53 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 03:49:06 PM
Quote from: General Douchebag on June 10, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
Those who supported Stalin believed he was more than human, and that he was infallible, while the dissenters saw him for what he was, a petty megalomaniac, abusing his power so that we could be worshiped. Much like Yahweh in many ways.

You seem to be under the impression that God is a human.

That is like saying that a giraffe deserves to be treated like a mosquito because there was once a mosquito that claimed to be sixteen feet tall.

Even by his own morality, Yahweh is fallible. He clearly leeches of faith or some shit, because if any human had those powers they'd just use them to have a universe of fun rather than ensure some monkeys on one particular planet as a god. That means we can kill him.

Mortal, impotent, fallible. Sounds pretty human to me. I don't doubt he's a wizard or something, and I probably couldn't beat alone, that would be arrogant. But we have ICBMs that can destroy a nation and salt the earth for centuries, from the other side of the world, we can take him.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1142 on: June 11, 2010, 02:13:45 AM »
Quote
But if God is sovereign, then his rules are not arbitrary

How do you figure? Even if he rules absolutely and can bend the universe at will, rules like 'don't wear two types of cloth together' are still bizarre and arbitrary.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1143 on: June 11, 2010, 06:46:29 AM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 10, 2010, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
I think that you are correct on all your points, but why would this mean that God is not just? Has he not given us a way out of the situation you described?
A way out? That would imply the existence of free will, which you yourself have admitted we do not have. In your narrative, we are nothing but puppets, our entire lives pre-ordained before we are even born.

But we have the illusion of free will, which as far as you and I are concerned is sufficient. Though God knew everything I would ever do and thus preordained that it would happen by simply setting the universe into motion, it does not in any way excuse me from the sins I commit, since I myself do not know everything that the future holds. Likewise, you must assume that you are one of the elect. Rejecting God on the grounds that "God already knew I wouldn't accept him" doesn't justify your decision.

My argument does not concern the day to day descisions I make, nor am I arguing this as a reason to reject God.  I am arguing that if God created us knowing the descisions we will make as a result, and we would have no way whatsoever to do otherwise, then God is responsible for any sinful descision we make.  As a result, if God punishes us for eternity after we die, he is punishing us for sins that he alone is the cause of.

Incidentally, a friend of mine is Lutheran, and I asked her the same line of questions the other day.  She replied that she does not believe that God knows the future, only the present, but in my opinion, if you knew everything about the present, you would be able to predict the future with 100% accuracy anyhow.  Going by the bible, there are several conflicting verses involving God's knowledge.  For example in Genesis:


Quote
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
The man said, "The woman you put here with me?she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"        
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."


A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1144 on: June 11, 2010, 08:36:33 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on June 11, 2010, 02:13:45 AM
Quote
But if God is sovereign, then his rules are not arbitrary

How do you figure? Even if he rules absolutely and can bend the universe at will, rules like 'don't wear two types of cloth together' are still bizarre and arbitrary.

If you remove God's sovereignty, sure.

Quote from: Maximohoundoom on June 10, 2010, 06:46:57 PM
The problem of Evil was one that Christians could never answer.

Christians say:
1- God Exists.
2- God knows everything: Everything that was, is and what will be.
3- God can do everything: There are no limits to his power.
4- God is all loving: he loves all of his creations and wishes no harm upon them.

The facts
1- There is and was crime in the world.

The implications are:

1- God knew who was going to commit crimes before they even existed.
2- God could have prevented them, but did not try.

With all of these premises, we must arrive to at least one of these conclusions:

1- God is not Omnipotent: He could not prevent crime.
2- God is not Omniscient: He did not know of all the crimes.
3- God is not Omnibenevolent: He would send his creations to hell for a crime, rather than preventing the crime.
4- God is not Real: Crimes happen naturally.

My question
Which one of these options do you choose? You can't logically deny them all.

You are making the mistake of applying your own morality to God, this is the flaw with your third conclusion. When you come to understand that God is not human and bound by human perceptions of what is right and wrong, you will understand that he can be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and still allow for bad things to happen in the world. Just as a clay vessel doesn't have the moral authority to complain about how the potter created it, we don't have the moral authority to say that God's plan for the universe is flawed. Even still, the comparison between a pot and a potter doesn't even come close to the disparity between man and God.

Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 10, 2010, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 10, 2010, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
I think that you are correct on all your points, but why would this mean that God is not just? Has he not given us a way out of the situation you described?
A way out? That would imply the existence of free will, which you yourself have admitted we do not have. In your narrative, we are nothing but puppets, our entire lives pre-ordained before we are even born.

But we have the illusion of free will, which as far as you and I are concerned is sufficient. Though God knew everything I would ever do and thus preordained that it would happen by simply setting the universe into motion, it does not in any way excuse me from the sins I commit, since I myself do not know everything that the future holds. Likewise, you must assume that you are one of the elect. Rejecting God on the grounds that "God already knew I wouldn't accept him" doesn't justify your decision.
I don't buy that. In the Christian view, sin is a choice: a choice to act selfishly or against God. If you have no true free will, you cannot make a choice. How can you go against God's plan if -by the pre-ordination of every second of your existence- every thought, action and breath you take is God's plan?

Also, what I assume is meaningless if my entire life is preordained. Either I will do the "right" things and go to Heaven, or I will do the "wrong" things and go to Hell, these paths were set in stone aeons before I existed. In the absence of free will, nothing I think or assume matters (if thought can truly be called thought without a mind capable of decisions).

I didn't think you bought any of this. We cannot possibly go against God's plan, but simply because my actions are the sum total of all my experiences, my biology, and my impulses and God in his infinite wisdom knows precisely what choice I will make, how does that justify my decision to commit a sin, such as murdering somebody?

Your life does have purpose for one reason, that God of the universe that preordained your existence said it does, even if your purpose goes no further than commiting your life to serving him.
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 07, 2009, 04:26:37 PM
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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1145 on: June 11, 2010, 08:40:06 AM »
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 11, 2010, 06:46:29 AM
A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

It is the same thing as a mom asking her kid what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar when his face is covered in crumbs and chocolate chips.
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 07, 2009, 04:26:37 PM
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Slemon

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1146 on: June 11, 2010, 08:42:13 AM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:40:06 AM
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 11, 2010, 06:46:29 AM
A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

It is the same thing as a mom asking her kid what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar when his face is covered in crumbs and chocolate chips.

Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:36:33 AM

You are making the mistake of applying your own morality to God, When you come to understand that God is not human and bound by human perceptions of what is right and wrong, you will understand
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1147 on: June 11, 2010, 12:17:09 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:40:06 AM
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 11, 2010, 06:46:29 AM
A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

It is the same thing as a mom asking her kid what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar when his face is covered in crumbs and chocolate chips.

 :-\  Seems kinda human for an all powerful being.

Along the previous lines of questioning regarding free will.  God commanded Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  God MUST have known that Adam would have eaten the fruit anyhow, in fact God purposefully set in motion the events that would enevitably end up with original sin, intending to curse Adam and Eve, and all of their children from the start.  Also, even IF Adam had free will, which you stated earlier he doesn't, Adam did not know the difference between good and evil before eating the fruit, therefore there is no way he could have known that disobeying God was an evil act. 

You agreed earlier that God is responsible for all sin.  So how is it just that we suffer for an act he is responsible for?
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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1148 on: June 11, 2010, 01:00:54 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:36:33 AM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 10, 2010, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 10, 2010, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: Canadark on June 10, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
I think that you are correct on all your points, but why would this mean that God is not just? Has he not given us a way out of the situation you described?
A way out? That would imply the existence of free will, which you yourself have admitted we do not have. In your narrative, we are nothing but puppets, our entire lives pre-ordained before we are even born.

But we have the illusion of free will, which as far as you and I are concerned is sufficient. Though God knew everything I would ever do and thus preordained that it would happen by simply setting the universe into motion, it does not in any way excuse me from the sins I commit, since I myself do not know everything that the future holds. Likewise, you must assume that you are one of the elect. Rejecting God on the grounds that "God already knew I wouldn't accept him" doesn't justify your decision.
I don't buy that. In the Christian view, sin is a choice: a choice to act selfishly or against God. If you have no true free will, you cannot make a choice. How can you go against God's plan if -by the pre-ordination of every second of your existence- every thought, action and breath you take is God's plan?

Also, what I assume is meaningless if my entire life is preordained. Either I will do the "right" things and go to Heaven, or I will do the "wrong" things and go to Hell, these paths were set in stone aeons before I existed. In the absence of free will, nothing I think or assume matters (if thought can truly be called thought without a mind capable of decisions).

I didn't think you bought any of this. We cannot possibly go against God's plan, but simply because my actions are the sum total of all my experiences, my biology, and my impulses and God in his infinite wisdom knows precisely what choice I will make, how does that justify my decision to commit a sin, such as murdering somebody?

Your life does have purpose for one reason, that God of the universe that preordained your existence said it does, even if your purpose goes no further than commiting your life to serving him.
Is it truly a decision if you cannot do otherwise?
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1149 on: June 11, 2010, 01:44:48 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:36:33 AM
I didn't think you bought any of this. We cannot possibly go against God's plan, but simply because my actions are the sum total of all my experiences, my biology, and my impulses and God in his infinite wisdom knows precisely what choice I will make, how does that justify my decision to commit a sin, such as murdering somebody?

Your life does have purpose for one reason, that God of the universe that preordained your existence said it does, even if your purpose goes no further than commiting your life to serving him.

I missed this one.  I guess your not understanding yet, if God already knows the choice I am going to make, then it is not in my power to choose otherwise, so really it isn't my choice, it was Gods.

Allow me to use John Lockes argument regarding a man in a room.

Imagine a man is kidnapped, druged unconcious, and placed into a room.  The room is secured such that it would be impossible for the man to escape the room.  However when the man wakes up, he finds there is a fantastic party going on in the room.  In addition, there are 72 virgins, the best food and drink, and all of his closest friends in the room all for him.  The man of course, never tries to escape, instead preferring to stay.  The question is, does the man remain in the room freely?

Locke says no, since it was only a matter of convenience that the man prefered the room to escape, the fact remains, he would not have been able to leave the room.

Now for my little twist on this story:

Say the person who kidnaped the man and locked him in the room was God.  God also left the man a note that read: if you remain in this room, you will be punished for eternity after you die.  The man would still recieve the punishment whether he prefered staying in the room or if he tried to get out, which as I stated is impossible.  Therefore it is inevitable that the man will end up being punished for eternity after his death.

Everytime God creates a sinner, he willingly locks him into that room from which there is no escape.
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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1150 on: June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM »
These are all perfectly valid points, but what does this have to do with God's morality? We have already established that God is supreme, and that man, for lack of a better word, is a lump of clay. I am not denying that God created the conditions that allowed for sin to enter the world, I am only saying that his ability to predict our actions doesn't give us a free pass to commit sin or reject the gospel of Christ. All the sin and suffering in the world fits into the story of the universe, of which we are all pieces, and God is the ultimate author because he set it into motion.

To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1151 on: June 11, 2010, 08:09:50 PM »
Quote from: BiJane on June 11, 2010, 08:42:13 AM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:40:06 AM
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 11, 2010, 06:46:29 AM
A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

It is the same thing as a mom asking her kid what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar when his face is covered in crumbs and chocolate chips.

Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:36:33 AM

You are making the mistake of applying your own morality to God, When you come to understand that God is not human and bound by human perceptions of what is right and wrong, you will understand

Quote from: Canadark on June 07, 2010, 06:19:51 PM
Like so many people on this forum, the pieces of scripture you refer to are either taken out of context or invented in your own mind.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1152 on: June 11, 2010, 08:14:45 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
These are all perfectly valid points, but what does this have to do with God's morality? We have already established that God is supreme, and that man, for lack of a better word, is a lump of clay. I am not denying that God created the conditions that allowed for sin to enter the world, I am only saying that his ability to predict our actions doesn't give us a free pass to commit sin or reject the gospel of Christ.

But we have no choice.  If we have no choice how can we be held accountable for our actions?
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Quote from: wise on August 21, 2018, 11:47:45 PM
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?
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Billbob32

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1153 on: June 11, 2010, 08:42:45 PM »
Why should I?
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John and Mary raced toward each other like two trains. One having left Chicago at 12:00 at 50 mph, and the other Madison at 45mph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duhem%E2%80%93Quine_thesis
( I know I'm citing wiki stick with me though)
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1154 on: June 11, 2010, 10:02:10 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
These are all perfectly valid points, but what does this have to do with God's morality? We have already established that God is supreme, and that man, for lack of a better word, is a lump of clay. I am not denying that God created the conditions that allowed for sin to enter the world, I am only saying that his ability to predict our actions doesn't give us a free pass to commit sin or reject the gospel of Christ. All the sin and suffering in the world fits into the story of the universe, of which we are all pieces, and God is the ultimate author because he set it into motion.

To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.

You still don't seem to understand what I am arguing here.  Responding to the statement in bold, I am not arguing that we have a free pass, I am arguing that those that do end up choosing to commit sin or deny the gospel are not at fault because those that do this do not have the ability to do otherwise.  Therefore God, is punishing people for actions they never had the ability to prevent.
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Slemon

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1155 on: June 12, 2010, 02:49:05 AM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:09:50 PM
Quote from: BiJane on June 11, 2010, 08:42:13 AM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:40:06 AM
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 11, 2010, 06:46:29 AM
A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

It is the same thing as a mom asking her kid what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar when his face is covered in crumbs and chocolate chips.

Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:36:33 AM

You are making the mistake of applying your own morality to God, When you come to understand that God is not human and bound by human perceptions of what is right and wrong, you will understand

Quote from: Canadark on June 07, 2010, 06:19:51 PM
Like so many people on this forum, the pieces of scripture you refer to are either taken out of context or invented in your own mind.

Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
These are all perfectly valid points,

To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
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Quote from: Crouton on December 02, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!
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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1156 on: June 12, 2010, 12:18:58 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?
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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1157 on: June 12, 2010, 03:07:57 PM »
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 12, 2010, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

@BiJane; this isn't exactly rocket science. If we accept that God is omnipotent (and seeing as how he created the universe, it would make sense that he is) then it stands to reason that he asked them those questions for some other reason than him being confused.
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 07, 2009, 04:26:37 PM
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Slemon

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1158 on: June 12, 2010, 03:10:59 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 12, 2010, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 12, 2010, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

@BiJane; this isn't exactly rocket science. If we accept that God is omnipotent (and seeing as how he created the universe, it would make sense that he is) then it stands to reason that he asked them those questions for some other reason than him being confused.

Is Satan evil?
What about the being who created and knew everything Satan was going to do? Surely the being which chooses to damn billions for eternity and who creates the devil must be considered a greater evil.
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Quote from: Crouton on December 02, 2022, 08:48:03 AM
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!
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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1159 on: June 12, 2010, 03:17:26 PM »
Quote from: BiJane on June 12, 2010, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 12, 2010, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 12, 2010, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

@BiJane; this isn't exactly rocket science. If we accept that God is omnipotent (and seeing as how he created the universe, it would make sense that he is) then it stands to reason that he asked them those questions for some other reason than him being confused.

Is Satan evil?
What about the being who created and knew everything Satan was going to do? Surely the being which chooses to damn billions for eternity and who creates the devil must be considered a greater evil.

Who are you to say that the sovereign God of the universe cannot use those individuals he has selected to fulfill his ultimate plan? Is he not sovereign? Are we not depraved? The Bible says that God is sovereign, man is depraved, and Satan actively works against the kingdom of God. Who am I to argue that God's plan is not good enough for me? I can only take joy in the knowledge that he saw me as being worthy of election and, as far as you and I can possibly know right now, you as well.
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Slemon

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1160 on: June 12, 2010, 03:18:22 PM »
Quote from: Canadark on June 12, 2010, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: BiJane on June 12, 2010, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 12, 2010, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 12, 2010, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

@BiJane; this isn't exactly rocket science. If we accept that God is omnipotent (and seeing as how he created the universe, it would make sense that he is) then it stands to reason that he asked them those questions for some other reason than him being confused.

Is Satan evil?
What about the being who created and knew everything Satan was going to do? Surely the being which chooses to damn billions for eternity and who creates the devil must be considered a greater evil.

Who are you to say that the sovereign God of the universe cannot use those individuals he has selected to fulfill his ultimate plan? Is he not sovereign? Are we not depraved? The Bible says that God is sovereign, man is depraved, and Satan actively works against the kingdom of God. Who am I to argue that God's plan is not good enough for me? I can only take joy in the knowledge that he saw me as being worthy of election and, as far as you and I can possibly know right now, you as well.

Should we reward rapists and murderers for carrying out God's plan then?
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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1161 on: June 13, 2010, 12:03:59 AM »
Okay, I'm done here. Canadark is either past the morality event horizon, or trolling. Either one means that further discussion is pointless.
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babsinva

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1162 on: June 13, 2010, 02:17:17 AM »
Quote from: General Douchebag on June 07, 2010, 05:50:06 AM
My perception of right and wrong overlaps a lot with OT morality and almost entirely with NT morality.
You've yet to address my main point which is that Satan is the more morally upright of the two as far as I can tell from scripture. Why worship the immoral one?

And I can see why you feel this way, based on what I’ve seen in this thread.  Part of the problem here, comes from the part below, which I highlighted in blue. >>  

Quote from: Canadark on June 04, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: BiJane on June 04, 2010, 08:47:19 AM
Why was there ever Mosaic Law? God knew he'd have to change his mind at some point, all-knowing after all, so why bother introducing a barbaric law involving stoning children to death, killing homosexuals, simple misogyny etc, when he was just going to undo it a few thousand years later?

I'm not entirely sure, but the way I see it is that God knew that he would eventually send his son as an atonement for the sins of humanity from the very beginning. Therefore the purpose of the Mosaic Law was to create the eventual social and political conditions necessary for the Messiah to come and also to showcase man's depravity and complete inability to justify himself by his own means.

This is my guess, I could be wrong but that is how I've always seen it.

Which spawned these responses:
Quote from: Canadark on June 06, 2010, 10:33:12 AM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 05, 2010, 11:36:08 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 05, 2010, 05:10:27 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 04, 2010, 09:29:10 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 04, 2010, 06:49:45 PM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 04, 2010, 04:49:52 PM
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?
Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?
Indeed.
So you would agree with the statement that the "ugly" pot would be condemned for something entirely out of his control? He would be condemned simply for existing as the potter made him?
Yes, but what right does the pot have to tell the potter that he was wrong?

After Canadark’s response to BiJane, I can certainly understand SCG’s remark ^ above. 

I also do not think the potter and clay is a good analogy here. ^^  Perhaps you were trying to make a point, but the way it was phrased, and how and when you chose to use it, …well it did not come off as good.  It’s as if you, Canadark are saying, God as potter can choose to make one dishonorable if He wants.  Why would a loving God do that?


And these exchanges of words also did not help. … >>
Quote from: Canadark on June 12, 2010, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 12, 2010, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: Canadark on June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

Oooh – that is probably why some people feel like this …>>
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on June 10, 2010, 04:34:47 PM
I don't care if god is a quadrillion times bigger and more powerful than us, that doesn't change the fact that the god of the Bible is immoral.

 

Canadark and I have agreed on several things recently, but none of these statements here that I re-quoted – sorry Canadark. 

I am going to go back 5 pages, (also re-quoted above –near top) which is where the conversation took a wrong turn, and address that question for it is what caused so much dissention.  Hopefully it will help Gen D and anyone else.   

The Old Mosaic Law included many things such as:
  • Theocratic Government
  • Judicial System
  • Religious Obligations
  • Duties of the Priesthood
  • Membership in the Congregation of Israel
  • Marriage, Family Relationships, Sexual Morality
  • Business Practices
  • Military Laws
  • Other Obligations involving fellow Creatures - i.e. the poor; widows; orphans; handicapped; animals, etc
  • Dietary and Sanitary Laws

Take the last one for example, sanitary laws helped to safeguard against disease.  Most of these people were not doctors, and even so, people then did not know how different diseases were spread - whether that be by hand contact, airborne illnesses, semen, blood, etcetera etc.  Rules were set up not so much as restrictions, but for their protection.

The nation of Israel (Jews) were neophytes, or babes if you will, who needed guidance in how to get started as a nation to govern themselves (with the help of God), and at the same time to separate themselves from the other worldly, evil, and pagan nearby nations that they may succumb to, who may carry them off as prey. 

The Mosaic Law was for God's people (the Israelites), not a system set up by the governments of the other nearby nations such as Pharaohs, Kings, Emperors and the like.  His people still complied with rules by the governments that controlled that land, such as registering births, paying taxes and such, but the laws God gave were in addition to what the wicked governments expected, so that His people answered to a higher order, (of morals and ethics that were so lacking in government) and by doing so were protected by God.

This may help some people understand why God set up rules, not because he wanted to be cruel and sadistic as said above, which Canadark agreed to.  Nor can God as potter mold the clay for anyone that refuses to be molded, so He can't - No won't do that.
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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1163 on: June 13, 2010, 10:41:01 AM »
Quote from: babsinva on June 13, 2010, 02:17:17 AM
This may help some people understand why God set up rules, not because he wanted to be cruel and sadistic as said above, which Canadark agreed to.  Nor can God as potter mold the clay for anyone that refuses to be molded, so He can't - No won't do that.
So you believe that humans do have free will, and the future is not pre-ordained?
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1164 on: June 13, 2010, 11:33:42 AM »
Quote
Who are you to say...

I'll tell you who I am.

I am the product of a thousand thousand generations of successful parents, I am the sum of the million million cells which compete and cooperate to be me. I am the totality of my thousands and thousands of events and experiences, of loss and of joy, of memories and dreams.

Through all my victories and defeats, I am human and I am a free man, I have the sole sovereignty over my body and mind and fuck anyone who tries to claim otherwise.
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babsinva

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1165 on: June 13, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »
Quote from: Myjafjallajokul on June 13, 2010, 10:41:01 AM

Quote from: babsinva on June 13, 2010, 02:17:17 AM
This may help some people understand why God set up rules, not because he wanted to be cruel and sadistic as said above, which Canadark agreed to.  Nor can God as potter mold the clay for anyone that refuses to be molded, so He can't - No won't do that.

So you believe that humans do have free will, and the future is not pre-ordained?

I will answer you, but first to re-quote what he said ... >>
Quote from: Canadark on June 04, 2010, 06:49:45 PM
Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?


Everyone has free will, but it is not without consequences. 
I am free to go to the grocery store (or market) and while I'm there choose to overspend so I can't pay on the house, and buy alot of junk food with little nourishment.  Or I am free to go to the grocery store and buy what I need, not overspend, and not come back with $89.99 worth of junk food I really don't need.  I am also free to go bar hopping from 8pm til 2 am, get trashed, drive drunk, and possibly hurt myself or someone else.  I can also choose to drink responsibly, and wait til after I sober up to drive, OR maybe drink at home instead or maybe not at all.  There are choices and I can choose myself - those choices are mine.  You may ask what good are my choices and the idea of free will, if there are consequences?  Because God did make you with a brain so you can think for yourselves, but he did not say waste the opportunity and do irresponsible, reckless, and stupid things.  God did not make me make the choices I did, and if He had, then why have a brain at all, why not just control us by remote.   

If our lives were pre-ordained, and I was pre-ordained as a bad seed, then I would always choose to do bad, because I would know that I have no chance of resurrection, since (as Canadark has said) the potter has made the clay dishonorable.  If on the other hand, my clay was not pre-ordained as a bad seed, and I started out good, but I knew that my resurrection would definately be pre-ordained then I might possibly become bad, because no matter what I did I would not really have to answer for anything.   SO you see, either way the pre-ordained thing makes no sense.  What point would the preaching of Canadark or anyone else for that matter - even matter?  I mean if our lives are pre-ordained then we don't really have to think, we could all just be robots or cyborgs, or (from the movie) "The Stepford Wives".   We would not have to make smart decisions, for it wouldn't really matter.  In fact everything could just be decided for us, and we'd be this brainless shell of a thing.  People could just use the excuse ... well you know, I guess I'm just not programmed or wired (if you will) that way, so I can't help it.  And if some were wired bettered than others, (as it pertains to good and bad seeds or molded with honorable clay or not) then that would mean admitting some of us are just useless extras.  A good God would never do that.  Even if you did not believe in God - it still would not make sense, because we all know we are not brainless shells and we can think.  If our lives were pre-ordained then there would be no incentive, no need to try, or think, or act, for we could all just be lazy gluttons, and heathens, and killers, because our families, friends, neighbors, and God would not hold us accountable and then why should we care - I mean if it's all fixed for us anyhow.  Well some might say, because there are still government laws we can not break like murder; yeah but ... remember government and police too would not hold us accountable either, because they know it's fixed, and they too would not have brains to think with either.  Obviously if we are having this discussion on FES, then we have brains, and if we have the ability to question these things, then our outcome is not fixed, or else (otherwise) we would not have any concerns about talking about it.  Now would we?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1166 on: June 15, 2010, 08:04:42 AM »
Then Babs, am I right to guess that you do not believe in Divine Foreknowledge?  God does not know what is going to happen?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1167 on: June 15, 2010, 10:33:32 AM »
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 15, 2010, 08:04:42 AM
Then Babs, am I right to guess that you do not believe in Divine Foreknowledge?  God does not know what is going to happen?

The bigger question is if he created us to be who we are and make the choices that we make, does that take our free will away?  Or does ignorance to the forecoming choices make the perception of free will.  Which would make the  all too common saying, perception is reality, actually true.
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Muphci

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1168 on: June 15, 2010, 11:15:05 AM »
I've gotta question.
Christianity is a finite thing, since there are records of when it actually begun. Does this mean that the beliefs are finite as well, or are they transcendental and existed even before people believed in them?
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1169 on: June 15, 2010, 11:54:24 AM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on June 15, 2010, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on June 15, 2010, 08:04:42 AM
Then Babs, am I right to guess that you do not believe in Divine Foreknowledge?  God does not know what is going to happen?

The bigger question is if he created us to be who we are and make the choices that we make, does that take our free will away?  Or does ignorance to the forecoming choices make the perception of free will.  Which would make the  all too common saying, perception is reality, actually true.

Divine foreknowledge and free will are incompatible as I pointed out a few pages ago.  They cannot both exist.  As for the perception of free will, I would still point out that is not the same as actual free will.  The man locked in the room has no choice but to stay in the room, even if he does prefer to stay in there.
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