Ask a Christian anything.

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1080 on: June 04, 2010, 09:08:07 PM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Uhm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

wat



Yeah, that's what I thought.

Google it  ;)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 09:10:17 PM by Canadark »
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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1081 on: June 04, 2010, 09:29:10 PM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?

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babsinva

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1082 on: June 05, 2010, 12:07:07 AM »

Mattew 15:11 Jesus states, after an altercation with some pharisees regarding hygene, that whatever goes into a man's mouth does not defile him, only what comes out (words).  He appears in this chapter to call the pharisees hypocrites for not honoring another of the old laws, namely stoning disobedient children, which given what he states in verse 11 he seems to condone that act (since disobedient children would count as something coming out of the mouth, not going in).

My question to Christians, do you agree with Jesus here that disobedient children should be stoned?  Just FYI, stoning historically was to the death, so in other words, he is condoning killing disobedient children in my mind.

I know I have brought up these verses before pointing out that Jesus was condoning that act, however I never really got a response regarding what Jesus appears to be condoning here.

The problem here is that you are interpreting this verse to mean that Jesus condoned the stoning of sinners which we all know he did not (on a side note the verse actually states "Anyone who curses"; this has nothing to do with a child disobeying his parents). He was using the verse against the Pharisees in order to to illustrate a flaw with their interpretation of the Mosaic Law. Pharisees said that somebody could withhold giving honour to their parents if they wanted to give that honour to God instead, something that Jesus was calling them out on.

So in other words, no, he does not condone stoning children, he doesn't condone stoning people who curse their parents either. To interpret the verse like that is to miss the point of what Jesus is trying to do here.

That's close, but consider this >>
Since the Mosaic Law was still in effect during Jesus' time (until his death in 33 A.D.) the law was still supposed to be obeyed, however the Pharisees and scribes were not obeying the Mosaic Law or even trying to, for they stood on tradition of men of former times.  Key word is "tradition".  It was the tradition of some to wash their hands and part of their arms - UP to the elbow, which is why the Pharisees asked why Jesus' disciples overstep the tradition and eat with defiled hands.  It was not that they had not washed at all, it's just that the Pharisees thought Jesus' disciples were not clean or properly washed for eating, and that defiled them, yet His people were not defiled and did not stand on tradition.  These Pharisees did not do this simply for hygiene purposes, but for ceremonial purposes.  They were so quick to attack Jesus and his disciples, and wrongly so, but the Pharisees would not obey the commandments and for that they were wrong, and Jesus pointed that out.  (See Mark 7:1-8)  The first 5 verses talk about washing up to the elbow and 4 -5 other traditions that the Pharisees had.  Verse 6 states Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, honoring me with your lips, but your hearts are far removed from me.  In verse 7 Jesus says it is in vain that they keep worshipping me because they teach as doctrines commands of men.  Culminating in verse 8 with, letting go the commandment of God, you hold fast to the tradition of men.

Then in Matthew 15:1-20, it starts by backing up the account in Mark, but goes into further detail.  Verse 11 states "Not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles a man."  Then Jesus' disciples asked for clarification, for which Jesus replied in verse 17 and 18.  "Are you not aware that everything entering into the mouth passes along into the intestines and is discharged into the sewer?  However, the things proceeding out of the mouth come out of the heart and those things defile a man." 

B-T-W in verse 4, Jesus does state that God has said that one who reviles (some bibles say curse) his father or mother was to end up in death.  This too was something the Pharisees did not practice, as commanded, but they pretended they were following the laws, but all the while criticizing Jesus and his followers.  That is why Jesus had called them hypocrites, and pointed out them not following verse 4, with His response in verse 5 & 6 stating they do not follow it, but ignore it.  Striking or reviling a parent was considered a serious crime under the Mosaic Law; see Exodus 21:15, 17.  And yes people were stoned under the Mosaic Law commanded to HIS nation of Israel.  Also see De 13:10; 21:22 & 23.

Both of you were somewhat right.  But keep in mind - this is not just in my bible - it's in yours.

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1083 on: June 05, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?
Indeed.
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Mykael

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1084 on: June 05, 2010, 11:36:08 PM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?
Indeed.
So you would agree with the statement that the "ugly" pot would be condemned for something entirely out of his control? He would be condemned simply for existing as the potter made him?

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1085 on: June 06, 2010, 10:33:12 AM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?
Indeed.
So you would agree with the statement that the "ugly" pot would be condemned for something entirely out of his control? He would be condemned simply for existing as the potter made him?
Yes, but what right does the pot have to tell the potter that he was wrong?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1086 on: June 06, 2010, 10:35:21 AM »
What right does the potter have to punish the pot for all eternity?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1087 on: June 06, 2010, 10:44:58 AM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?
Indeed.
So you would agree with the statement that the "ugly" pot would be condemned for something entirely out of his control? He would be condemned simply for existing as the potter made him?
Yes, but what right does the pot have to tell the potter that he was wrong?

The pot has every right if it's a sentient being about to be tortured forever and a day for events beyond its control. Then again, we have already established that you have a worrying lack of empathy for real living things.

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1088 on: June 06, 2010, 10:45:30 AM »
What right does the potter have to punish the pot for all eternity?

The potter, by the simple fact that he created it and has complete and total dominion over it, has every right to use the pot for whatever purpose he wishes.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1089 on: June 06, 2010, 10:47:37 AM »
Why would you worship such a cruel being?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1090 on: June 06, 2010, 10:51:29 AM »
So he made the world all fucked up so that the world would need him to come in and save it?

Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
Yet in the Christian narrative, the ugly pot would be condemned for its ugliness, no?
Indeed.
So you would agree with the statement that the "ugly" pot would be condemned for something entirely out of his control? He would be condemned simply for existing as the potter made him?
Yes, but what right does the pot have to tell the potter that he was wrong?

The pot has every right if it's a sentient being about to be tortured forever and a day for events beyond its control. Then again, we have already established that you have a worrying lack of empathy for real living things.

By simply setting the universe into motion and knowing what would happen within it, God preordained that some people would be followers and some would not. It seems that you take offense with the idea that God is omnipotent and omniscient but we still experience suffering.

Whatever perception you have of my sense of empathy is irrelevant, I live my life with the hope that every person I met was intended as a vessel of honour. Though I know that many will never taste the fruit of salvation, this doesn't have any bearing on how I treat others or my desire for their redemption.
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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1091 on: June 06, 2010, 10:53:01 AM »
Why would you worship such a cruel being?

I don't accept the premise of your question.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1092 on: June 06, 2010, 10:55:07 AM »
Why would your god purposely create people who have no hope for salvation?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1093 on: June 06, 2010, 10:56:38 AM »
Why would your god purposely create people who have no hope for salvation?

Who are you to say what God can or cannot do? The comparison between the pot and the potter doesn't even come close to the scale of difference between man and God.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1094 on: June 06, 2010, 11:01:20 AM »
According to your beliefs I am a creature created by God (in His image). If I question His actions it is only because He made me this way.  That is who I am to say what he should or shouldn't do.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1095 on: June 06, 2010, 11:02:22 AM »
I think Cowgirl is asking how can you worship a God who purposely creates people that have no hope of salvation. Its cruelty to the extreme.
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General Douchebag

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1096 on: June 06, 2010, 11:18:07 AM »
Why would you worship such a god when he is singly responsible for all of the pain in the world and hate Satan, whose only input was making us sentient and then killing the first born of Egypt (even then only because God made him do it)?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1097 on: June 06, 2010, 11:21:02 AM »
According to your beliefs I am a creature created by God (in His image). If I question His actions it is only because He made me this way.  That is who I am to say what he should or shouldn't do.

The entire book of Job is about God refuting the reasoning behind this argument.
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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1098 on: June 06, 2010, 11:29:29 AM »
Why would you worship such a god when he is singly responsible for all of the pain in the world and hate Satan, whose only input was making us sentient and then killing the first born of Egypt (even then only because God made him do it)?

Because though God not fit into the mold that the world has created for him, he is still God.
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General Douchebag

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1099 on: June 06, 2010, 11:38:49 AM »
Why would you worship such a god when he is singly responsible for all of the pain in the world and hate Satan, whose only input was making us sentient and then killing the first born of Egypt (even then only because God made him do it)?

Because though God not fit into the mold that the world has created for him, he is still God.

So? Satan clearly has equal power or thereabouts and is clearly the more preferable to worship, being less of a murderous lunatic. Gods don't need to be worshipped simply by virtue of having power, they either have to inspire either love or terror among their followers. Since this Jehovah fellow is neither nicer nor much more powerful than Satan, I suggest we all go have a big Crowleyist orgy of sex, drugs and violence/rock 'n roll.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1100 on: June 06, 2010, 12:12:22 PM »
Why would you worship such a god when he is singly responsible for all of the pain in the world and hate Satan, whose only input was making us sentient and then killing the first born of Egypt (even then only because God made him do it)?

Because though God not fit into the mold that the world has created for him, he is still God.

So? Satan clearly has equal power or thereabouts and is clearly the more preferable to worship, being less of a murderous lunatic. Gods don't need to be worshipped simply by virtue of having power, they either have to inspire either love or terror among their followers. Since this Jehovah fellow is neither nicer nor much more powerful than Satan, I suggest we all go have a big Crowleyist orgy of sex, drugs and violence/rock 'n roll.

Based on what pieces of scripture did you come to the conclusion that Satan is equal with God in both power and morality?
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General Douchebag

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1101 on: June 06, 2010, 12:25:48 PM »
Why would you worship such a god when he is singly responsible for all of the pain in the world and hate Satan, whose only input was making us sentient and then killing the first born of Egypt (even then only because God made him do it)?

Because though God not fit into the mold that the world has created for him, he is still God.

So? Satan clearly has equal power or thereabouts and is clearly the more preferable to worship, being less of a murderous lunatic. Gods don't need to be worshipped simply by virtue of having power, they either have to inspire either love or terror among their followers. Since this Jehovah fellow is neither nicer nor much more powerful than Satan, I suggest we all go have a big Crowleyist orgy of sex, drugs and violence/rock 'n roll.

Based on what pieces of scripture did you come to the conclusion that Satan is equal with God in both power and morality?

All Satan actually does in scripture is kill a few people on Yahweh's command and give Eve the forbidden fruit, while Yahweh destroys entire cities for using the wrong orifice, then turns someone he specially selected to survive into salt for turning and looking at the awesome massive explosion and rain of fire.

As for power, if God and Satan are opposing forces and neither are giving, the only logical outcome is either that they are equally powerful or Yahweh isn't giving it his all, which would be an immoral act in and of itself if you believe Satan to be evil.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1102 on: June 06, 2010, 12:43:20 PM »
According to your beliefs I am a creature created by God (in His image). If I question His actions it is only because He made me this way.  That is who I am to say what he should or shouldn't do.

The entire book of Job is about God refuting the reasoning behind this argument.

Uh.. no it isn't.  The book of Job is about God allowing Job to be tortured by Satan to prove that he is truly pious.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1103 on: June 06, 2010, 12:51:37 PM »
Crap, I forgot about Job. You can chalk that up to "Satan did it on Yahweh's orders".
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 01:22:20 PM by General Douchebag »
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1104 on: June 06, 2010, 01:05:27 PM »
The lesson Canadark is referring to (in Job) really isn't about God teaching Job that he doesn't have the right to question his authority. God gives a speech about it, He tells Job that he doesn't have the right.  The lesson is that God is all powerful and can fuck with anyone at any time and that there is nothing any of us can do about it.  So, if you want to say that is some sort of divine teaching, that is ok with me... but if God didn't want us to question he shouldn't have given us free will, he shouldn't have purposely put the "tree of knowledge" in the garden so that we'd eat of it. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1105 on: June 06, 2010, 02:16:26 PM »
Even if I accept the idea of God as (if you'll pardon the expression) gospel truth, why on Earth would I want to worship it?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1106 on: June 06, 2010, 06:14:49 PM »

Mattew 15:11 Jesus states, after an altercation with some pharisees regarding hygene, that whatever goes into a man's mouth does not defile him, only what comes out (words).  He appears in this chapter to call the pharisees hypocrites for not honoring another of the old laws, namely stoning disobedient children, which given what he states in verse 11 he seems to condone that act (since disobedient children would count as something coming out of the mouth, not going in).

My question to Christians, do you agree with Jesus here that disobedient children should be stoned?  Just FYI, stoning historically was to the death, so in other words, he is condoning killing disobedient children in my mind.

I know I have brought up these verses before pointing out that Jesus was condoning that act, however I never really got a response regarding what Jesus appears to be condoning here.

The problem here is that you are interpreting this verse to mean that Jesus condoned the stoning of sinners which we all know he did not (on a side note the verse actually states "Anyone who curses"; this has nothing to do with a child disobeying his parents). He was using the verse against the Pharisees in order to to illustrate a flaw with their interpretation of the Mosaic Law. Pharisees said that somebody could withhold giving honour to their parents if they wanted to give that honour to God instead, something that Jesus was calling them out on.

So in other words, no, he does not condone stoning children, he doesn't condone stoning people who curse their parents either. To interpret the verse like that is to miss the point of what Jesus is trying to do here.

That's close, but consider this >>
Since the Mosaic Law was still in effect during Jesus' time (until his death in 33 A.D.) the law was still supposed to be obeyed, however the Pharisees and scribes were not obeying the Mosaic Law or even trying to, for they stood on tradition of men of former times.  Key word is "tradition".  It was the tradition of some to wash their hands and part of their arms - UP to the elbow, which is why the Pharisees asked why Jesus' disciples overstep the tradition and eat with defiled hands.  It was not that they had not washed at all, it's just that the Pharisees thought Jesus' disciples were not clean or properly washed for eating, and that defiled them, yet His people were not defiled and did not stand on tradition.  These Pharisees did not do this simply for hygiene purposes, but for ceremonial purposes.  They were so quick to attack Jesus and his disciples, and wrongly so, but the Pharisees would not obey the commandments and for that they were wrong, and Jesus pointed that out.  (See Mark 7:1-8)  The first 5 verses talk about washing up to the elbow and 4 -5 other traditions that the Pharisees had.  Verse 6 states Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, honoring me with your lips, but your hearts are far removed from me.  In verse 7 Jesus says it is in vain that they keep worshipping me because they teach as doctrines commands of men.  Culminating in verse 8 with, letting go the commandment of God, you hold fast to the tradition of men.

Then in Matthew 15:1-20, it starts by backing up the account in Mark, but goes into further detail.  Verse 11 states "Not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles a man."  Then Jesus' disciples asked for clarification, for which Jesus replied in verse 17 and 18.  "Are you not aware that everything entering into the mouth passes along into the intestines and is discharged into the sewer?  However, the things proceeding out of the mouth come out of the heart and those things defile a man." 

B-T-W in verse 4, Jesus does state that God has said that one who reviles (some bibles say curse) his father or mother was to end up in death.  This too was something the Pharisees did not practice, as commanded, but they pretended they were following the laws, but all the while criticizing Jesus and his followers.  That is why Jesus had called them hypocrites, and pointed out them not following verse 4, with His response in verse 5 & 6 stating they do not follow it, but ignore it.  Striking or reviling a parent was considered a serious crime under the Mosaic Law; see Exodus 21:15, 17.  And yes people were stoned under the Mosaic Law commanded to HIS nation of Israel.  Also see De 13:10; 21:22 & 23.

Both of you were somewhat right.  But keep in mind - this is not just in my bible - it's in yours.

Jesus explained that what comes out of the mouth defiles a man because it comes from the heart.  I take this as meaning that any particular mosaic law that involves this type of defilement should be upheld, but those laws that involves merely things going into the mouth should not.  That is why I came to the conclusion he was condoning the act of stoning children that curseth their parents.

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Christianrocker90

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1107 on: June 06, 2010, 06:22:05 PM »
Even if I accept the idea of God as (if you'll pardon the expression) gospel truth, why on Earth would I want to worship it?

If you did, why would you choose to accept an eternity of burning in a lake of fire over an eternity in paradise?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1108 on: June 06, 2010, 06:25:36 PM »
According to your beliefs I am a creature created by God (in His image). If I question His actions it is only because He made me this way.  That is who I am to say what he should or shouldn't do.

This reminds me about an argument I heard about the paradox of divine foreknowledge and free will.  It goes like this:

P1:  God knows everything that we will do.  (doctrine of divine foreknowledge).
P2:  If God knows everything we will do, then it is not in our power to do otherwise. (If God knows the future, then the future is set in stone)
P3:  If it is not in our power to do otherwise, then there is no free will.
Conclusion:  There is no free will.

It is a matter of deductive reasoning that if the three premises are correct, then the conclution must be.  The only way to deny the conclusion is to deny one of the three premises.  To deny the first premise however, is basically to deny God, since omniscience is a defining characteristic of God.

Assuming this is true, if we have no free will, and all of our actions have already been pre ordained, then how is it just for God to punish us for eternity for actions which we had no control over?

The last question is to the Christians, also if you disagree with the argument above, I would address that as well.

Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #1109 on: June 06, 2010, 07:01:45 PM »
According to your beliefs I am a creature created by God (in His image). If I question His actions it is only because He made me this way.  That is who I am to say what he should or shouldn't do.

The entire book of Job is about God refuting the reasoning behind this argument.

Uh.. no it isn't.  The book of Job is about God allowing Job to be tortured by Satan to prove that he is truly pious.

The story of Job is first and foremost a story of God's sovereignty.

EDIT: I just saw your second post. It is correct for the most part, except that I don't believe we have free will. By simply setting the universe into motion God, in his foreknowledge, preordained everything that would ever happen.

Why would you worship such a god when he is singly responsible for all of the pain in the world and hate Satan, whose only input was making us sentient and then killing the first born of Egypt (even then only because God made him do it)?

Because though God not fit into the mold that the world has created for him, he is still God.

So? Satan clearly has equal power or thereabouts and is clearly the more preferable to worship, being less of a murderous lunatic. Gods don't need to be worshipped simply by virtue of having power, they either have to inspire either love or terror among their followers. Since this Jehovah fellow is neither nicer nor much more powerful than Satan, I suggest we all go have a big Crowleyist orgy of sex, drugs and violence/rock 'n roll.

Based on what pieces of scripture did you come to the conclusion that Satan is equal with God in both power and morality?

All Satan actually does in scripture is kill a few people on Yahweh's command and give Eve the forbidden fruit, while Yahweh destroys entire cities for using the wrong orifice, then turns someone he specially selected to survive into salt for turning and looking at the awesome massive explosion and rain of fire.

As for power, if God and Satan are opposing forces and neither are giving, the only logical outcome is either that they are equally powerful or Yahweh isn't giving it his all, which would be an immoral act in and of itself if you believe Satan to be evil.

The problem here is that once again, you are attempting to apply your perception of what is right and wrong over God's actions. God is giving his all, the fact that there is still evil in the world only tells us that his plan has some ultimate purpose for it. As Lewis said, we should not make the mistake in believing that Satan is the opposite of God. He is wholly evil, but he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. It is more accurate to say that Satan is the opposite of the Archangel Gabriel.

Plus you are referring to things that as far as I know, have never even been referred to in scripture (kill a few people on Yahweh's command?)

EDIT: shoot I just lost about a half hour's work of typing. I'll reply to the other queries later.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 07:19:21 PM by Canadark »
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