Ask a Christian anything.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #150 on: March 08, 2010, 02:30:46 PM »
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God told Adam not to eat the fruit. The sin that he committed was disobedience. Through this initial act he became aware of sin and separated himself from God.

Wrong. Sorry just plain wrong.

Until he eats the fruit he has no basis on which to make a moral decision, as far as he's concerned any action is good, the same for Eve.

When the Devil tempts them with the apple, how are they possibly to make an informed choice? God says 'don't eat the fruit or you'll die.' and they accept this as absolute fact because they're incorruptible, if they don't know what a lie is, how can they identify one?

Whe the Devil says: "You will not die for God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." They absolutely believe him, again, why shouldn't they? As far as they're concerned everything which is spoken is a truth. They also don't know at this point that disobeying holy orders is wrong.

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Jack

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #151 on: March 08, 2010, 02:39:26 PM »
That's like asking "why is God big". It is part of his nature.
If it is God's nature to be good, wouldn't raping innocents be good if God commands us to do so? If God commands that raping innocents is bad because he is good, then it is reasonable to say that he knows raping innocents is bad before he gives such command. This implies that there must be a separate standard of goodness (raping innocents is bad). If this is the case, why do we need God to determine what is good or bad?

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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #152 on: March 08, 2010, 04:16:13 PM »
Does God have the answers to everthing? Could God think of a question that God couldn't answer?

This was addressed on the first page. God cannot defy his own nature.

EDIT: So the answer is no.

Quote
God told Adam not to eat the fruit. The sin that he committed was disobedience. Through this initial act he became aware of sin and separated himself from God.

Wrong. Sorry just plain wrong.

Until he eats the fruit he has no basis on which to make a moral decision, as far as he's concerned any action is good, the same for Eve.

When the Devil tempts them with the apple, how are they possibly to make an informed choice? God says 'don't eat the fruit or you'll die.' and they accept this as absolute fact because they're incorruptible, if they don't know what a lie is, how can they identify one?

Whe the Devil says: "You will not die for God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." They absolutely believe him, again, why shouldn't they? As far as they're concerned everything which is spoken is a truth. They also don't know at this point that disobeying holy orders is wrong.

Sin had been committed before when Satan separated himself from God. He introduced the idea of disobedience into the world by persuading Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. I was off when I said that Adam and Eve had no concept of right and wrong, but their understanding of it only went so far as how it related to the fruit. That was the only way that sin could enter into the world, and they took the bait. Therefore, when the Devil told them to eat the fruit they knew that they were going against God's command.

That's like asking "why is God big". It is part of his nature.
If it is God's nature to be good, wouldn't raping innocents be good if God commands us to do so? If God commands that raping innocents is bad because he is good, then it is reasonable to say that he knows raping innocents is bad before he gives such command. This implies that there must be a separate standard of goodness (raping innocents is bad). If this is the case, why do we need God to determine what is good or bad?

It would be good, but at the same time because some of God's nature is reflected in us, raping innocents would probably seem good to us as well. I reject the idea that many Christians have that atheists or people who belong to other faiths are not able to make moral decisions. Laws reflect our values, our values reflect how we believe society can function the best. Having a law against stealing is perfectly rational because though it would be in my interest to steal from you (if there was no law), it would be more-so in my interest to support a law against stealing, because I have more to gain from it (or perhaps, less to lose).

Many of the commands in the Bible against murder, stealing, and yes, rape, make perfect sense because they are bad for society. I am arguing that God knows not just that which human intuition and reason tell us, but that the standards he describes for humans to live by go beyond our limited perspective and present goodness in its fullest form.

The example of rape is a very poor one (and in bad taste), since all rational humans and the Bible can agree that it is bad. A better example would be putting cream in our coffee, since the Bible says nothing about it. Let's assume that it did say that putting cream in coffee was a sin. Obviously, human intuition doesn't understand why this would be so, but from a Christian perspective it would make sense to believe that society would be better off not putting cream in its coffee. I'm not asking you to agree with what I'm saying here about Christian morality, just understand where we come from and what our ideas are based on.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 04:19:02 PM by Canadark »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #153 on: March 08, 2010, 04:46:51 PM »
How did Adam and Eve have a concept of right and wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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2fst4u

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #154 on: March 08, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
How did Adam and Eve have a concept of right and wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge?
Don't ask questions.

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Jack

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #155 on: March 08, 2010, 04:52:05 PM »
The example of rape is a very poor one (and in bad taste), since all rational humans and the Bible can agree that it is bad.
Actually, not really. What if God changes his mind?

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #156 on: March 08, 2010, 04:56:56 PM »
Did God make Lucifer?
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #157 on: March 08, 2010, 06:44:52 PM »
How did Adam and Eve have a concept of right and wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge?

Because God told them not to eat from the tree. That was the extent of their understanding of right and wrong.

How did Adam and Eve have a concept of right and wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge?
Don't ask questions.

Do ask questions.

The example of rape is a very poor one (and in bad taste), since all rational humans and the Bible can agree that it is bad.
Actually, not really. What if God changes his mind?

Yes, really.
If God told me that I was supposed to rape people, then I would feel compelled to believe that God is not real, or that he is not good.

If it is God's nature to be good, wouldn't raping innocents be good if God commands us to do so? If God commands that raping innocents is bad because he is good, then it is reasonable to say that he knows raping innocents is bad before he gives such command. This implies that there must be a separate standard of goodness (raping innocents is bad). If this is the case, why do we need God to determine what is good or bad?

Someone has been reading his Plato.

Also, rape is a subjective word. So is innocent.

So is subjective.

Did God make Lucifer?

Yes.
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theonlydann

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #158 on: March 08, 2010, 07:07:12 PM »
Why does God hate orphans?

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Tusk

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #159 on: March 08, 2010, 07:27:50 PM »
Did God make Lucifer?

Insomuch as he was a fallen angel rebelling against the authoritarian attitude of the main geezer i suppose he was a product of that personification.
Hang on, I'll just check my personal care factor for this week : nope still don't give a fuck

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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #160 on: March 08, 2010, 08:24:11 PM »
Why does God hate orphans?

The premise of this question is wrong. God does not hate orphans.

Did God make Lucifer?

Insomuch as he was a fallen angel rebelling against the authoritarian attitude of the main geezer i suppose he was a product of that personification.

Your suppositions (though you are free to have them) are incorrect from a Biblical point of view.
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Pongo

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2010, 08:45:27 PM »
Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

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Masterchef

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #162 on: March 08, 2010, 08:51:54 PM »
If God is so perfect, why is everything he created so flawed?

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cmdshft

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #163 on: March 08, 2010, 09:15:26 PM »
If God is so perfect, why is everything he created so flawed?

Why, it's for the lulz of course!

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Jack

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #164 on: March 08, 2010, 09:30:31 PM »
Yes, really.
Just because my example goes against your religion, doesn't mean it's poor or invalid. In fact, you can easily change my example to "inflicting unnecessary harm upon innocents" and it would still mean the same thing. My example is valid because it gives us the following: what if God changes His mind one day and commands us to do something that is considered bad? It questions whether or not God is arbitrary or there is a standard of moral goodness independent of Him in which morality is derived.

If God told me that I was supposed to rape people, then I would feel compelled to believe that God is not real, or that he is not good.
Therefore, as you've admitted, there is a standard of moral goodness in which rape itself is bad even if God were to command us to rape, and He would be wrong if He does give such command. In this case, God is unnecessary.

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Christianrocker90

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #165 on: March 08, 2010, 11:55:56 PM »
Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

Nope.

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Ocius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #166 on: March 09, 2010, 12:03:41 AM »
Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

Nope.

So they're like his personal little vanguard?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #167 on: March 09, 2010, 01:09:56 AM »
Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

Nope.

In which case Lucifer was under orders from God to rebel?

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Christianrocker90

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #168 on: March 09, 2010, 01:27:15 AM »
Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

Nope.

In which case Lucifer was under orders from God to rebel?

I didn't say they didn't have free will I said they have the type of free will humans do.

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Pongo

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #169 on: March 09, 2010, 01:38:00 AM »
Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

Nope.

In which case Lucifer was under orders from God to rebel?

I didn't say they didn't have free will I said they have the type of free will humans do.

How many types of free will are there?  Or more importantly, which type do angels have?  You have asserted that they have some sort of free will, so please explain to me the rules that their free will operates under so that they may choose to reject God, yet presumably cannot choose other things.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #170 on: March 09, 2010, 01:59:10 AM »
I think I hear backpedalling.

Go on, CR90 let me pull up a chair because I feel this one will be good. If they don't have 'human free-will' just what 'free-will' do they have?

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theonlydann

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #171 on: March 09, 2010, 02:52:42 AM »
Obviously, they have ANGEL free will... which is impossible for mere humans to understand.  ::)

Also, why does god love orphans less than he loves W.A.S.P.s

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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #172 on: March 09, 2010, 04:30:37 AM »
Yes, really.
Just because my example goes against your religion, doesn't mean it's poor or invalid. In fact, you can easily change my example to "inflicting unnecessary harm upon innocents" and it would still mean the same thing. My example is valid because it gives us the following: what if God changes His mind one day and commands us to do something that is considered bad? It questions whether or not God is arbitrary or there is a standard of moral goodness independent of Him in which morality is derived.

If God told me that I was supposed to rape people, then I would feel compelled to believe that God is not real, or that he is not good.
Therefore, as you've admitted, there is a standard of moral goodness in which rape itself is bad even if God were to command us to rape, and He would be wrong if He does give such command. In this case, God is unnecessary.

You raise a very good point. There is a standard of moral goodness that can be understood to a degree without God. However, I believe God is necessary from a moral point of view because we cannot realize everything about that standard of goodness. His commands fill in the blanks. This goes back to my initial response to the dilemma you presented: God is good by his nature.

Were angels given the same gift of free will as mankind?

They understood free will more than Adam did.

If God is so perfect, why is everything he created so flawed?

It wasn't originally, but when man sinned he separated himself from God and everything he was steward over began to deteriorate. It is assumed that had Adam not sinned, he would have been immortal.

I think I hear backpedalling.

Go on, CR90 let me pull up a chair because I feel this one will be good. If they don't have 'human free-will' just what 'free-will' do they have?

Slow down tiger, I didn't get a chance to answer the first question. Adam's conception of free will went only so far as it related to the fruit. That was the outlet through which he could rebel from God. The angels obviously had a more complete understanding of free will, as Satan led 1/3 of them in rebellion against God.
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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #173 on: March 09, 2010, 04:31:55 AM »
Obviously, they have ANGEL free will... which is impossible for mere humans to understand.  ::)

Also, why does god love orphans less than he loves W.A.S.P.s

See post on page 9. If you see a flaw in my reasoning, point it out and I will discuss this more in depth.

Why does God hate orphans?

The premise of this question is wrong. God does not hate orphans.
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theonlydann

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #174 on: March 09, 2010, 05:54:43 AM »
I see no facts proving god doesnt hate orphans. You are a liar.

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Ocius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #175 on: March 09, 2010, 06:09:51 AM »
How do you know all of this?

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Canadark

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #176 on: March 09, 2010, 06:27:53 AM »
I see no facts proving god doesnt hate orphans. You are a liar.

James 1:27:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim that God hates orphans.

How do you know all of this?

All of what? My beliefs are based on the Bible. My belief in the Bible is based on a hunch that what it says is true.
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Ocius

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #177 on: March 09, 2010, 06:45:56 AM »
So you actually believe that the entire world was flooded by rain water?

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theonlydann

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #178 on: March 09, 2010, 06:55:34 AM »
I see no facts proving god doesnt hate orphans. You are a liar.

James 1:27:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim that God hates orphans.

Their parents are dead. Back to you.

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Masterchef

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Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« Reply #179 on: March 09, 2010, 07:01:03 AM »
If God is so perfect, why is everything he created so flawed?

It wasn't originally, but when man sinned he separated himself from God and everything he was steward over began to deteriorate. It is assumed that had Adam not sinned, he would have been immortal.
Why did God create a system that could be completely destroyed by a little bit of sin?