What about the Coriolis Effect?

OK, can we please move past toilets?

This is a prime example of FE'er debate style.  They will find and harp on whatever error they can find in your claim (be it semantics, spelling...) no matter how insignificant and show conclusively that it is an error.  They then attempt to claim that since this small error exists, the entire argument must be flawed.

Pretty much a straw man argument.

And I agree, toilets are not the issue nor the focus at hand.

Quote from: flyingmonkey on February 28, 2010, 09:32:22 PM

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on February 28, 2010, 07:46:38 PM

You're wrong.  The Coriolis Force has no effect on our toilets.

Ofcourse not toilets

Go check your toilet. The water doesn't spin. It just gets forced into the bowl and flushed. It doesn't excacty drain like a bathtub.

Hence my reply.

How about the Coriolis effect on sniper bullets when u fire at very long range. How do u guy account for that effect ?

How about the Coriolis effect on sniper bullets when u fire at very long range. How do u guy account for that effect ?

...


what?

Quote from: Robert777 on April 17, 2010, 09:14:51 AM

How about the Coriolis effect on sniper bullets when u fire at very long range. How do u guy account for that effect ?

...


what?

Yep, when sniping at very long ranges, you have to take Coriolis Effect into consideration.

The velocity of a point on the earth's surface at a specific latitude due to its rotation is

Velocity = w * r

where
r = radius of circular motion of the point considered and is given by R * Cos[ Latitude ] where R is the radius of the Earth = 6356750 m
w = angular velocity of the earth in radians per second and is given by 2 * Pi/ ( 24 * 60 * 60 ) which reflects the earth completes 2*Pi radians of rotation in 24 hours

So the

Velocity = 2 * Pi/ ( 24 * 60 * 60 ) * R * Cos[ Latitude ]
= k * Cos[ Latitude ]

where
k = 2 * Pi/ ( 24 * 60 * 60 ) * R

The difference in velocity between two places of different latitude is simply

VelocityDifference = k * ( Cos[ Latitude1 ] - Cos[ Latitude2 ]

if we wish to consider the difference in velocities between 38 degrees North and a mile North of that point then the difference is

VelocityDifference = k * ( Cos[ 38 ] - Cos[ 38 + OneMileInDegreesOfArc ]

OneMileinDegreesOfArc = 1760/2000*1/60
as one nautical mile is 1/60 degree and 2000 yards and one statute mile is 1760 yrds

So expanding k as defined above
VelocityDifference = 2 * Pi/ ( 24 * 60 * 60 ) * 6356750 * ( Cos[ 38 ] - Cos[ 38 + 1760/2000*1/60 ] )
= - 0.073 ms-1 (7.3 cm s-1)

The flight time of a M16A2 firing a 5.56mm round to cover 1 mile at an angle of 5 degrees is about 5.5 seconds ( determined from flight modelling ).

So the movement of the target over the period of the trajectory is

= 5.5 * 0.073
= 0.4 m ( 40 cm )

That could be the difference between a kill and being spotted.

Ahem.  The maximum effective range of an M16A2 (5.56mm) is about 600-800 meters.  Now a .308 or .50 cal sniper rifle, on the other hand...  Well, from what I've heard, shots over a mile often require a fair bit of "Kentucky windage".

Yea, Coriolis requires a massive distance in order for it to have an effect on things moving across the ground. I'm not too sure about these bullets

The Coriolis Effect causes tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. to rotate counterclockwise in the Northern hemisphere and clockwise in the Southern hemisphere. 

More on the Coriolis force: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect 
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/coriolis_effect.html

With a flat earth, if the flat disk is spinning, the Coriolis effect would cause all these things to spin in the same direction.  The only way to make hurricanes in the Southern hemisphere spin clockwise with a flat earth is if the Southern hemisphere were rotating the opposite direction of the Northern hemisphere.  If this were the case, there would be obvious evidence (there isn't).

This brings us to 2 possible conclusions:
1.  Every single hurricane, tornado, and wind current since the dawn of time is part of the Conspiracy.
2.  Earth is round.

If you choose the former, be prepared to explain how inanimate objects were convinced to join the conspiracy.

Let's rephrase the question and try again...

The maximum range of a M16A2 semiautomatic is 3600 meters.

Just thought I'd mention that.

The maximum range of a M16A2 semiautomatic is 3600 meters.

Just thought I'd mention that.

You can also visit the Earthquakes thread to understand why FE fails 

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41505.msg1035880#msg1035880

The maximum range of a M16A2 semiautomatic is 3600 meters.

Just thought I'd mention that.

However, the maximum effective range of an M16A2 is 600 meters against a point target and 800 meters against an area target.

In WW2, the Germans (using rail artillery, I believe) attempted to bombard Dover from Calais. Their failure to strike the target was down to them not taking the Coriolis effect into account. Some of you will probably say 'well their aiming was off', but the German artillerymen were pretty damn good. They didn't miss.

And the longest recorded range for a sniper kill in combat is about 1.5 miles.

In WW2, the Germans (using rail artillery, I believe) attempted to bombard Dover from Calais. Their failure to strike the target was down to them not taking the Coriolis effect into account. Some of you will probably say 'well their aiming was off', but the German artillerymen were pretty damn good. They didn't miss.

And the longest recorded range for a sniper kill in combat is about 1.5 miles.

Is that the distance the brit got in afghanistan?

Yeah, IIRC he was using the .50 calibre Barrett.

Coriolis is one of the littlest taken into account things on a rifleman's mind when taking aim whether it has an effect or not. It's is irrelevant.

Coriolis is one of the littlest taken into account things on a rifleman's mind when taking aim whether it has an effect or not. It's is irrelevant.

So hitting their target isn't on a rifleman's mind when taking aim? That was a pretty sad attempt at a circular argument meant to downplay it's importance so you can feel better about being wrong. Please try again.

Quote from: 2fst4u on August 21, 2010, 08:41:11 PM

Coriolis is one of the littlest taken into account things on a rifleman's mind when taking aim whether it has an effect or not. It's is irrelevant.

So hitting their target isn't on a rifleman's mind when taking aim? That was a pretty sad attempt at a circular argument meant to downplay it's importance so you can feel better about being wrong. Please try again.

I'm thinking that for most, if not all, sniper shots, the wind has a far more significant (and sometimes unpredictable) effect on the shot than the Coriolis effect.

Quote from: TheJackel on August 21, 2010, 10:02:53 PM

Quote from: 2fst4u on August 21, 2010, 08:41:11 PM

Coriolis is one of the littlest taken into account things on a rifleman's mind when taking aim whether it has an effect or not. It's is irrelevant.

So hitting their target isn't on a rifleman's mind when taking aim? That was a pretty sad attempt at a circular argument meant to downplay it's importance so you can feel better about being wrong. Please try again.

I'm thinking that for most, if not all, sniper shots, the wind has a far more significant (and sometimes unpredictable) effect on the shot than the Coriolis effect.

I would agree that wind has a major roll to play, and I don't think I have ever stated otherwise.

Coriolis is one of the littlest taken into account things on a rifleman's mind when taking aim whether it has an effect or not. It's is irrelevant.

Small effect != an effect that can be disregarded. It exists, and must be accounted for to make long-distance shots. That adjustment may be large or small depending on the specific set of circumstances.

Quote from: 2fst4u on August 21, 2010, 08:41:11 PM

Coriolis is one of the littlest taken into account things on a rifleman's mind when taking aim whether it has an effect or not. It's is irrelevant.

Small effect != an effect that can be disregarded. It exists, and must be accounted for to make long-distance shots. That adjustment may be large or small depending on the specific set of circumstances.

Probably the only way for a sniper to properly compensate for the Coriolis effect would be with a ballistics computer.  From what on the Military Channel and History Channel, such ballistics computers do not seem to be standard issue for most modern snipers.  Rather, the sniper usually has an experienced spotter to help him get on target.

Guys, most sniper kills are at around the 1000 metre mark. That distance is way too small to take the Coriolis effect into account. Artillerymen, on the other hand, fire shells further than 10 miles on a regular basis. My dad was in a TA artillery unit firing guns with an effective range of nine miles (in the 70s). He had to take the Coriolis effect into account when firing at medium-long ranges, at short range the shell was powerful enough to negate the effect when it hit.

Go find me a sniper that activley takes into account coriolis.

Go find me a sniper that activley takes into account coriolis.

That wouldn't be hard to do. You can ask those holding distance kill shot records.

Quote from: 2fst4u on August 24, 2010, 10:13:47 PM

Go find me a sniper that activley takes into account coriolis.

That wouldn't be hard to do. You can ask those holding distance kill shot records.

I've seen a couple of sniper documentaries on the History Channel where several snipers talked about their km plus shots and I don't remember any of them mentioning Coriolis.  I do remember Kentucky windage being mentioned, however.

Quote from: TheJackel on August 24, 2010, 10:35:36 PM

Quote from: 2fst4u on August 24, 2010, 10:13:47 PM

Go find me a sniper that activley takes into account coriolis.

That wouldn't be hard to do. You can ask those holding distance kill shot records.

I've seen a couple of sniper documentaries on the History Channel where several snipers talked about their km plus shots and I don't remember any of them mentioning Coriolis.  I do remember Kentucky windage being mentioned, however.

I said you could ask them lol.. History channel doesn't necessarily state every aspect of how they got their kills.