Forcing people to buy health insurance

If the Dems pass the health care bill, Rush Limbaugh says he'll leave the country.  I think that is reason enough to pass the bill!

!

Bye Rush.

How is it any more unconstitutional to force everyone to buy health insurance than it is to force everyone to pay for social security?

Because it's not taxation and is justified by it's proponents under the commerce clause, which regulates interstate commerce.

The closest comparisons are the Gun Free Schools act and the Violence Against Women act, both of which attempted to regulate non-
economic activity with the commerce clause and were both ruled unconstitutional. Not buying health insurance is not commerce.

Bye Rush.

He said he would leave the country for MEDICAL PROCEDURES. Not leave the country. We can never be THAT lucky.

Party pooper!

So... if their is no more pre-existing conditions clause... imma go to a doctor like... soon!

In response to the OP:
It's not any more or less unconstitutional than social security.
Social security is plainly unconstitutional.

If congress doesn't follow the constitution to the absolute letter, what makes any of you think they will follow anything that they write to the letter?  Oh, that's right, they are just going to do whatever the hell they want, because no one will stop them.

All other arguments are nonessential to this issue.  Why should anyone follow the rules given to us by the government, when the government doesn't follow the rules given to it by us?

But, for argument's sake...I'm part of a 'universal healthcare system.'  Let me be the first to say, it sucks.  I had to wait 2 months for an MRI, turns out I have a herniated disc in my back.  Why the two month wait?  Well, the aren't enough machines to go around.  Why?  Because the government foots the bill.  There is absolutely ZERO incentive to meet the supply/demand curve.
My pain killers aren't doing the trick?  Too bad, the better ones cost more money.  Physical therapy is all the way cross town?  Too bad, that's who I was assigned.
I think my doctor is a bumbling idiot that doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground (for various reasons)?  Too bad, I'm stuck, that's my doctor.

In a private business, if there is a need due to demand, that need is filled, because filling a need = $$.
In a government (business?), if there is a need due to demand, that need is not filled, because filling a need = -$$.


Now, let's discuss healthcare as 'passed' by the congress of the US.  It mandates that individuals have health insurance.  But more specifically, what kind of health insurance?  Well, the 'basic minimum coverage.'  Well...that could obviously mean a lot of different things to different people.  Who is it decided by?  Well, the bill nominates the 'secretary' (I can't remember which department/agency) will establish this minimum.  Oh, and the plan has to meet price and a ton of other requirements (again, decided by an agency, not congress).

It's true, the healthcare plan doesn't really do much to the 'deficit.'  That's all just part of the crony song and dance congress plays before that do anything.  This bill, for the most part, is an unfunded federal mandate.  That is, they are require the states to run these exchanges, and are only providing assistance for the start up costs of the program, not any of the cash required to run these 'exchanges.' 
At the end of the day, visiting a doctor is still going to cost somebody somewhere money.  The overall price of healthcare will rise, private insurance will be all but eliminated due to the extremely unprofitable requirements of the government (except the ultra large companies, which will likely receive subsidies), and the eventual logical outcome is complete government takeover of the healthcare system.

And, as congress knows, once you're dependant on something, they can manipulate you to their will in other areas.  Just look at the transportation department.  Why do you think your state enforces a 0.08% BAC for DUI enforcement?  Because if it's higher than that, no federal handouts.

I won't comment on the healthcare bill directly, because I am frankly not informed enough about it, but I want to address the things Mizzle said about universal healthcare. Germany has the oldest universal healthcare system in the world and my family has been using it for over a century now. Personally I andmy immediate family have never experienced any problems with this system. The horror stories I hear about someone waiting for hours with a broken arm in a hospital are frankly lies (at least here in Germany and several other parts of Europe). I honestly don't know where those stories come from, but they sound like fearmongering to me.

If you have some little stupid thing to take care of it can take some days, but if you are in pain or danger, you get treatment immediately. I won't pretend that it's perfect, because it's not, but overall it has served me and my family well.

I don't calll you a liar, Mizzle, because I am sure you had those experiences you described. Only offering a different perspective here.

I believe that it works in some places and not in others.  I have a favorable impression of Germany in my mind, and I am not surprised things work as advertised over there.  Just look at the automobile industry:  German car = world renown for expert engineering and quality.  American car:  Union junk that went bankrupt and got bailed out.
The difference is that the US runs a world wide empire.  Empires are expensive.  Militarys to enforce imperical rule are expensive.  We have to cut costs somewhere.  Our budget is way to big.  Our government is in no way designed to incorporate a socialist healthcare system.
There is probably a higher level of accountability in government in Germany.  Less people to less government.
The beauty of the American system is that what might work in California might not work in Florida.  So, California is free to do as it pleases, and so is Florida.
Why everyone wants to tell each other what to do is mind boggling.  Why can't we be different? 

On a positive note, I'm glad you've had good experiences with your healthcare.
As far as waiting in an emergency room for hours with a broken arm, that actually happens here in the US system.  I don't dare call it a free market system though, way too many regulations.

I know it's extreme, but this is my point of view:
Slaves were given food, lodging, and I suspect, free healthcare here in America.  Of course, they didn't have the option to opt out, or seek private treatment.  They did what their masters told them.
I don't want to be anybody's slave, in any sense, whatsoever.  I want freedom and all the consiquences that come with it.

It's not any more or less unconstitutional than social security.
Social security is plainly unconstitutional.

Social security is based upon a tax assessed to income.  As the Constitution allows this I don't see how you can call it unconstitutional. 
Fines targeting people who do not buy a product is a different matter.

German car = world renown for expert engineering and quality.  American car:  Union junk that went bankrupt and got bailed out.

Nice opinion. 
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/descending/page-#page-anchor

Which news station do you watch that tells you how to feel about all of this stuff??

IMO free Healthcare is a necessity. In a developed country, everyone should have the right to medical treatment when they need it. Not to use progress to help other humans is absolutely ridiculous to me. And I'm going to back Friedrich up and say I've never had any bad experience, direct or indirect, with the NHS in the UK.

I haven't really had any big problems with the NHS or the health system here either. And I can get same day doctor appointments if I phone in the morning or if I just walk in to the clinic and see a nurse first.

Quote from: Mizzle on March 25, 2010, 02:07:46 AM

It's not any more or less unconstitutional than social security.
Social security is plainly unconstitutional.

Social security is based upon a tax assessed to income.  As the Constitution allows this I don't see how you can call it unconstitutional. 
Fines targeting people who do not buy a product is a different matter.

Quote

German car = world renown for expert engineering and quality.  American car:  Union junk that went bankrupt and got bailed out.

Nice opinion. 
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/descending/page-#page-anchor

Which news station do you watch that tells you how to feel about all of this stuff??

First, all taxes are supposed to be unapportioned.  Anything that is a % tax is clearly not unapportioned.
Apportionment means:  For every 1 person, X tax, not for every dollar.  Furthermore, congress only has the power to Tax for purposes that are specifically constitutional.  Otherwise, they could just 'evenly' tax everyone's income, and make free movie theatres for the homeless.

I'm glad you get your opinion from JD power.  Let's list the automakers that went bankrupt on that list due to unions:
GMC (and all subordinate brands) and Chrysler.  Oh that's right:  Noone wants to pay higher prices for an inferior product, regardless of what your useless rating entity says.

As far as 'free healthcare' goes, go ask any doctor how much he charges for any service.  Unless he says 'it's free' for it, then it's not free.  Someone is paying for it.
If you're hungry can you walk into a grocery store and start eating the food?  Of course not.  You don't have a right to food, just like you don't have a right to healthcare.  At the end of the day, everything has it's price.
If you think healthcare is a right, you don't know what a right is.  Rights are granted by God, not by a government or it's people.
By supporting 'free' healthcare, you are stealing from others.  If your beliefs are so noble, then donate your own money to support the needy.
If you demand others pay for services you use, then you demand this out of your own greed and lust for another's wealth.
Like I've always said, if healthcare was really the priority of the working poor, they would have it.  People would like 20+ to a house, and then rent and utilities would be such a small fraction of their income they could purchase health insurance.

Rights are granted by God?  WTF are you talking about? 

What do you know of the working poor? People wouldn't live 20+ to a house for health care, that might be the most retarded bullshit I've read in a health care debate. 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Do you know where that sentence came from?  The US Declaration of Independence.  The declaration was adopted by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776.

I don't know where you are from Space Cowgirl, but if you're from the United States, obviously you have no clue what the foundation of the society you are in is composed of.

Yes, rights granted by god.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Do you know where that sentence came from?  The US Declaration of Independence.  The declaration was adopted by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776.

I don't know where you are from Space Cowgirl, but if you're from the United States, obviously you have no clue what the foundation of the society you are in is composed of.

Yes, rights granted by god.

Just because the Decleration of Independence says it, it must be true?

In order to understand American government and the constitution, it's important to understand the context and meaning of things such as rights and where they come from.
So, if you understand that, in the context of America, that rights are derived from God, and not the government, then you would understand that nobody has a 'right' to healthcare.  It's like saying you have a right to have purple tennis shoes.  No, you don't.  You have the right to aquire them (property rights), but you have no right to demand them.  Everyone 'needs' shoes, so the government should give you free shoes, right?  Everyone 'needs' a car, so the government should give you a free car, right?
Government can neither grant or take rights.  That's where the whole inalienable part comes from.  God gave you those rights, they are not optional.

What business do you engage in?  Well, I feel I have a 'right' to that good or service as well, so I demand that the government force you to give it to me for free.  Despite the fact that you spent years of your life, and thousands and thousands of your own dollars on an education, you must now provide this service or good to me for free at the behest of the government, because I have an equitable stake in your property.

In order to understand American government and the constitution, it's important to understand the context and meaning of things such as rights and where they come from.
So, if you understand that, in the context of America, that rights are derived from God, and not the government, then you would understand that nobody has a 'right' to healthcare.  It's like saying you have a right to have purple tennis shoes.  No, you don't.  You have the right to aquire them (property rights), but you have no right to demand them.  Everyone 'needs' shoes, so the government should give you free shoes, right?  Everyone 'needs' a car, so the government should give you a free car, right?
Government can neither grant or take rights.  That's where the whole inalienable part comes from.  God gave you those rights, they are not optional.

What business do you engage in?  Well, I feel I have a 'right' to that good or service as well, so I demand that the government force you to give it to me for free.  Despite the fact that you spent years of your life, and thousands and thousands of your own dollars on an education, you must now provide this service or good to me for free at the behest of the government, because I have an equitable stake in your property.

So god gave me the right to have a car and tennis shoes? Sweet.

Only in the context of America, though.

In order to understand American government and the constitution, it's important to understand the context and meaning of things such as rights and where they come from.
So, if you understand that, in the context of America, that rights are derived from God, and not the government, then you would understand that nobody has a 'right' to healthcare.  It's like saying you have a right to have purple tennis shoes.  No, you don't.  You have the right to aquire them (property rights), but you have no right to demand them.  Everyone 'needs' shoes, so the government should give you free shoes, right?  Everyone 'needs' a car, so the government should give you a free car, right?
Government can neither grant or take rights.  That's where the whole inalienable part comes from.  God gave you those rights, they are not optional.

What business do you engage in?  Well, I feel I have a 'right' to that good or service as well, so I demand that the government force you to give it to me for free.  Despite the fact that you spent years of your life, and thousands and thousands of your own dollars on an education, you must now provide this service or good to me for free at the behest of the government, because I have an equitable stake in your property.

[Glenn Beck]What about emergency rooms? I mean, its certainly not written in the constitution, nor the bible, so why should I have to pay just because some retard got himself into a car accident? sounds like fucking communism to me.... Or what about all this infrastructure? Surely I shouldn't be paying for other people's paved roads or telephone polls or national parks or other shit, the privilege to use such things needs to be earned, not given. ....Or what about the mentally challenged? They were born that way because god chose for them to be so, I shouldn't need to 10X the regular cost of education just because we need to house a few retards in our schools, let them be store greeters.....[/Glenn Beck]

Go masturbate to Ayn Rand or something dude...your oversimplified thinking aint gunna be appreciated none here.....

In typical leftist fashion, there is no logical debate to refute my points, just insults.
Just because it's healthcare you all (the last few posters, not everyone) feel your opinion has a moral high ground to mine.
Who are you to make demands of individuals?  Who are you to decide what's fair and what isn't?
Making demands of others through the force (and I mean, guns and violence, aka the police) of government makes you part of the scum of societal fabric, and the reason we have any form of government in the first place.

You said our governmental functions are derived from god. How can we logically refute that other than saying 'no, you're crazy'? How do we prove that wrong?

What is your argument anyways? God doesn't want any steps towards universal health care, therefor, we're wrong?

My original argument was that socialized medicine is unconstitutional in the US.  Also, while it may be right for some, say Germany, as one individual pointed out he is very happy with his care, it might not be right for all.  Why can't all the states decide what they want to do in their own states?  That's how America works (rather, is supposed to work).
In addition to the fact that it's unconstitutional, I don't trust the current federal government to do anything correctly.  Failure is business as usual for the US government.

Then, someone said people have a right to healthcare.  I tried explaining what a 'right' is in America, and where it is derived.
Also, people need to understand that nothing in this world is free.  Someone pays for everything.  In corporate socialism (aka, the US), the tax payer pays for it, and the profits go into big businesses' pockets.

let me paraphrase your argument:
I'm always right

Surely there can be no issue with trying to modify a system that leaves so many people without healthcare. That is Obamas motive here. And the companies providing insurance are not charitites. They are in it to make money and that is the real problem is sorting the playing field out. Obama only had two options, to create a governement funded (by taxpayers) NHS (as we have in the UK) or to regulate the insurance industry to force them to cover everyone without condition. Neither option was going to please everyone. Even in the UK we have a private healthcare service for those who what to pay for that and insurance options are available. But whatever the Americans argue about over this issue there is no excuse for millions of people being left out of healthcare because they are too poor to buy insurance. That's just not where a country as wealthy as America should be.

You said our governmental functions are derived from god. How can we logically refute that other than saying 'no, you're crazy'? How do we prove that wrong?

No, I said our rights are derived from God.  Government gets it's powers from man.  Government cannot give or deny rights, that's where the inalienability comes from.
Healthcare is not a right.  Healthcare is the product of many individuals working together to produce a bunch of goods and services.
Get on a city bus, and don't pay.  Then tell the driver you have a RIGHT to be there.  The driver will say, sure, you can ride this bus, but you HAVE to pay.  The bus is a good, and being driven around are a service.  You have to pay for these things.
Do you have a right to food?  No, you don't.  You must work and earn your own money to purchase food.

Surely there can be no issue with trying to modify a system that leaves so many people without healthcare. That is Obamas motive here. And the companies providing insurance are not charitites. They are in it to make money and that is the real problem is sorting the playing field out. Obama only had two options, to create a governement funded (by taxpayers) NHS (as we have in the UK) or to regulate the insurance industry to force them to cover everyone without condition. Neither option was going to please everyone. Even in the UK we have a private healthcare service for those who what to pay for that and insurance options are available. But whatever the Americans argue about over this issue there is no excuse for millions of people being left out of healthcare because they are too poor to buy insurance. That's just not where a country as wealthy as America should be.

Since we are so wealthy, why do we have people too poor to buy insurance?
You're right:  Anything the federal government won't please everyone, and in this case, won't please anyone except huge insurance companies.  The federal government has no business interfering with business, or mandating citizens to participate in any business.
Fact of the matter is this:  Health insurance isn't all that expensive for basic insurance.  People want it for free because they feel entitled to it.
Healthcare costs what it costs.  If the cost is too high, perhaps we should look into why the cost is so prohibitively high, starting with abusive government regulations in the first place.
It's a very dynamic issue, and it's foolish to think that any centrally planned system would ever be better, cheaper, and more efficient than a freely operating system.

Healthcare is not the same as taking a bus though. You can choose not to take a bus...you can't choose not to become ill. Taxes are paid for governments to do with as they see fit to run services for all but within that there will be some things your taxes will pay for that you don't use. Some people don't have children for example...do they then demand none of their taxes be spent on education for other people's children? Healthcare is something that should come under the realm of essential services. People should not be dieing or suffering because they can not afford healthcare...that's just not acceptable in the western world. It is interesting though just how many americans don't see healthcare as an essential service (always the ones with full health insurance of course). But we'll had healthcare for all in the UK for over 40 years and most of europe operates some form of healthcare that leaves no-one without cover. We are not bankrupted by it. There's a hint of 'me first' in this debate. Yes healthcare insurance is expensive, so lobby the president to do something about that. Don't punish the poor. They are not the insurance companies ripping you all off.