The Perfect God

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AbdulAziz

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The Perfect God
« on: February 07, 2010, 12:34:39 AM »
As far as I know Islam is the only religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT God. A perfect God means that there is no sharer in His Nature and His Attributes.

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an, 112:1-4)

My question, is there any religion that teaches the existence of a Perfect God?
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
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Mykael

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 01:11:26 AM »
Christianity teaches similar beliefs.

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babsinva

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 02:09:56 AM »
Christianity teaches similar beliefs.

True Christianity does teach and believe in one God and perfect God, yet many Christian religions who claim to be monotheistic, really are not and believe in a triune god, so as long as they believe in the trinity they are believing a 3 in 1 god, and therefore attributes are shared or blended in some way.  God is perfect and doesn't need helpers. 

Judaism believes in one God - Perfect God.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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AbdulAziz

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 07:48:00 AM »
Christianity teaches similar beliefs.

True Christianity does teach and believe in one God and perfect God, yet many Christian religions who claim to be monotheistic, really are not and believe in a triune god, so as long as they believe in the trinity they are believing a 3 in 1 god, and therefore attributes are shared or blended in some way.  God is perfect and doesn't need helpers. 

Judaism believes in one God - Perfect God.

Well both Christians and Judaism proved some attributes or by some events that the God they worship is not Perfect

For example Jews believe that God after creating the heavens and earth in the 7th day he rest and he was refreshed, and we all know Perfect God doesn't need to rest or get refreshed.

"And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had Chariots OF IRON." JUDGES 1:19

and there are many other verses that proves their God does have some attributes that can't be considered Perfect!

Is there any other religions besides the Christianity and Judaism that gives Perfect Attributes to god in their holy scripture :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 11:54:13 AM »
It depends what you mean. Many 'christian' philosophers for example believed in a perfect God, Spinoza perhaps being the best example.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 11:56:47 AM »
Until we have a defined and quantifiable measure of perfection this thread is pointless.

But for my two pence: I believe Pantheism describes a perfect, omnipresent 'god'

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optimisticcynic

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 12:15:11 PM »
Hindus
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ERTW

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 02:28:36 PM »
As far as I know Islam is the only religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT God. A perfect God means that there is no sharer in His Nature and His Attributes.
By your definition of perfect then no, there is no other perfect God. However as was said earlier in the thread the definition of 'perfect' is far from perfect, since we are imperfect.

Just to show this problem, answer me this:

Can Allah prepare a burrito that is so hot He himself cannot eat it?

If I define perfect as a being that can accomplish anything, I run into a problem.
If Allah is can accomplish eating anything then no burrito can harm Him, however if He fails to create the Allah-busting burrito then He is incapable.
Hence the given definition of perfection is self contradictory and inadequate.
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Sadistic

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 08:47:41 PM »
Fictional character fight? I'm gonna hafta say superman could beat up your god w/o trying, hes got lazer vision.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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parsec

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 09:00:50 PM »
KRISHNA

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babsinva

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 04:52:36 AM »
Christianity teaches similar beliefs.

True Christianity does teach and believe in one God and perfect God, yet many Christian religions who claim to be monotheistic, really are not and believe in a triune god, so as long as they believe in the trinity they are believing a 3 in 1 god, and therefore attributes are shared or blended in some way.  God is perfect and doesn't need helpers. 

Judaism believes in one God - Perfect God.

Is there any other religions besides the Christianity and Judaism that gives Perfect Attributes to god in their holy scripture :)

Then this response ...

Hindus

@opti - definately not Hindus.  They have a kabillion powerful entities AND supernatural beings.  Also they do not have just one purified or accepted religion amongst Hindus, for it varies by denomination of Hindu and their philosophies within those denominations.  They also believe avatars are reincarnations of God.  In actuality, God does not die and come back as something else, and he being perfect would not need to re-invent himself.  No and NO.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 07:53:34 AM »
I think what Chris said earlier is especially pertinent - until you define 'perfection', this discussion is really going nowhere.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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parsec

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 07:56:36 AM »
@opti - definately not Hindus.  They have a kabillion powerful entities AND supernatural beings.  Also they do not have just one purified or accepted religion amongst Hindus, for it varies by denomination of Hindu and their philosophies within those denominations.  They also believe avatars are reincarnations of God.  In actuality, God does not die and come back as something else, and he being perfect would not need to re-invent himself.  No and NO.
Oh, do you mean something like Father, Son, God's Mother, Holy Ghost, angels, apostles. prophets and saints and satan and demons?

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babsinva

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 08:13:55 AM »
@opti - definately not Hindus.  They have a kabillion powerful entities AND supernatural beings.  Also they do not have just one purified or accepted religion amongst Hindus, for it varies by denomination of Hindu and their philosophies within those denominations.  They also believe avatars are reincarnations of God.  In actuality, God does not die and come back as something else, and he being perfect would not need to re-invent himself.  No and NO.
Oh, do you mean something like Father, Son, God's Mother, Holy Ghost, angels, apostles. prophets and saints and satan and demons?

@Parsec - Yes you could say that for the Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox etc.  They believe in a truine god - 3 in 1.  Also they pray to Jesus' mother Mary through the Hail Mary, and they pray to Saints like St Jude, and St Christopher, the patron saint of travel.  Yeah Parsec like those religions.  I was Catholic 28 years - and know only too well about these practices, which is why I left the religion.  There is nothing wrong with belief in prophets or apostles, but the problem comes when one bows down to statues of them, or when one pays reverance to icons of them. (idolatry)  Nothing wrong with the belief in angels either but don't pray to them - God is the only hearer of prayer.  Yeah too much pomp and circumstance for me - horse and pony show.  Real Christians don't pray falsely as those people do.     
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 08:18:19 AM »
@opti - definately not Hindus.  They have a kabillion powerful entities AND supernatural beings.  Also they do not have just one purified or accepted religion amongst Hindus, for it varies by denomination of Hindu and their philosophies within those denominations.  They also believe avatars are reincarnations of God.  In actuality, God does not die and come back as something else, and he being perfect would not need to re-invent himself.  No and NO.
Oh, do you mean something like Father, Son, God's Mother, Holy Ghost, angels, apostles. prophets and saints and satan and demons?

@Parsec - Yes you could say that for the Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox etc.  They believe in a truine god - 3 in 1.  Also they pray to Jesus' mother Mary through the Hail Mary, and they pray to Saints like St Jude, and St Christopher, the patron saint of travel.  Yeah Parsec like those religions.  I was Catholic 28 years - and know only too well about these practices, which is why I left the religion.  There is nothing wrong with belief in prophets or apostles, but the problem comes when one bows down to statues of them, or when one pays reverance to icons of them. (idolatry)  Nothing wrong with the belief in angels either but don't pray to them - God is the only hearer of prayer.  Yeah too much pomp and circumstance for me - horse and pony show.  Real Christians don't pray falsely as those people do. 
Your point is at least ten centuries old.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 08:47:14 AM »
Quote
Real Christians

Holy Baloney, Batman! It's the 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' alarm!

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Mykael

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2010, 08:51:49 AM »
Quote
Real Christians

Holy Baloney, Batman! It's the 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' alarm!
To the Logicmobile!
      /
     /
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:53:39 AM by Mykael »

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babsinva

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2010, 09:41:45 AM »
@opti - definately not Hindus.  They have a kabillion powerful entities AND supernatural beings.  Also they do not have just one purified or accepted religion amongst Hindus, for it varies by denomination of Hindu and their philosophies within those denominations.  They also believe avatars are reincarnations of God.  In actuality, God does not die and come back as something else, and he being perfect would not need to re-invent himself.  No and NO.

Oh, do you mean something like Father, Son, God's Mother, Holy Ghost, angels, apostles. prophets and saints and satan and demons?

@Parsec - Yes you could say that for the Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox etc.  They believe in a truine god - 3 in 1.  Also they pray to Jesus' mother Mary through the Hail Mary, and they pray to Saints like St Jude, and St Christopher, the patron saint of travel.  Yeah Parsec like those religions.  I was Catholic 28 years - and know only too well about these practices, which is why I left the religion.  There is nothing wrong with belief in prophets or apostles, but the problem comes when one bows down to statues of them, or when one pays reverance to icons of them. (idolatry)  Nothing wrong with the belief in angels either but don't pray to them - God is the only hearer of prayer.  Yeah too much pomp and circumstance for me - horse and pony show.  Real Christians don't pray falsely as those people do. 

Your point is at least ten centuries old.

Doesn't change anything - was agreeing with you in reference to the many religions that do have an imperfect God based on their understanding of God and additional traditions or rituals applied.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2010, 11:25:43 AM »
Doesn't change anything - was agreeing with you in reference to the many religions that do have an imperfect God based on their understanding of God and additional traditions or rituals applied.


Yes, but the judgement of whether or not that God is 'perfect' is entirely yours. How do you come to the conclusion that one God is perfect whereas another is not? You say "based on their understanding . . . or rituals", but what about them reveals imperfection, and on what basis do you make that judgement?


Until you define perfection, I don't see how you can identify or demonstrate imperfection.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2010, 04:59:00 PM »
Lord is right...define "perfect"...just because God decides to rest doesn't necessarily mean imperfect.

Many religions "teach" of a perfect God and then fill him with dogmatic human characteristics...
Most religions have changed their idea of the creator over the years anyway. The idea of God that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and a few others have changed over the years for power. So now to reel in the masses, God is angry, jealous, and condemns anyone who doesn't practice the "right" religion. LOL

A misconception of Hindus is that they have many different Gods. This isn't really the case. They celebrate ONE God....but also celebrate the different sides and aspects of that God because they see God in everything.

Religions that celebrate the Trinity I can't really say teach of ONE Perfect God...it's worshiping 3 entities and "claiming" they are part of a while to explain it away lol.

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parsec

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 05:00:47 PM »
@opti - definately not Hindus.  They have a kabillion powerful entities AND supernatural beings.  Also they do not have just one purified or accepted religion amongst Hindus, for it varies by denomination of Hindu and their philosophies within those denominations.  They also believe avatars are reincarnations of God.  In actuality, God does not die and come back as something else, and he being perfect would not need to re-invent himself.  No and NO.

Oh, do you mean something like Father, Son, God's Mother, Holy Ghost, angels, apostles. prophets and saints and satan and demons?

@Parsec - Yes you could say that for the Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox etc.  They believe in a truine god - 3 in 1.  Also they pray to Jesus' mother Mary through the Hail Mary, and they pray to Saints like St Jude, and St Christopher, the patron saint of travel.  Yeah Parsec like those religions.  I was Catholic 28 years - and know only too well about these practices, which is why I left the religion.  There is nothing wrong with belief in prophets or apostles, but the problem comes when one bows down to statues of them, or when one pays reverance to icons of them. (idolatry)  Nothing wrong with the belief in angels either but don't pray to them - God is the only hearer of prayer.  Yeah too much pomp and circumstance for me - horse and pony show.  Real Christians don't pray falsely as those people do. 

Your point is at least ten centuries old.

Doesn't change anything - was agreeing with you in reference to the many religions that do have an imperfect God based on their understanding of God and additional traditions or rituals applied.
I was just saying Krishna is a perfect god. Thanks for agreeing with me.

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optimisticcynic

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 06:16:27 PM »
Lord is right...define "perfect"...just because God decides to rest doesn't necessarily mean imperfect.

Many religions "teach" of a perfect God and then fill him with dogmatic human characteristics...
Most religions have changed their idea of the creator over the years anyway. The idea of God that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and a few others have changed over the years for power. So now to reel in the masses, God is angry, jealous, and condemns anyone who doesn't practice the "right" religion. LOL

A misconception of Hindus is that they have many different Gods. This isn't really the case. They celebrate ONE God....but also celebrate the different sides and aspects of that God because they see God in everything.

Religions that celebrate the Trinity I can't really say teach of ONE Perfect God...it's worshiping 3 entities and "claiming" they are part of a while to explain it away lol.
thanks. I was wondering if anyone would point out that about the Hindus. For some reason not many people take the time to learn the most basic parts of the other major religions.
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ERTW

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 09:16:18 PM »
...
A misconception of Hindus is that they have many different Gods. This isn't really the case. They celebrate ONE God....but also celebrate the different sides and aspects of that God because they see God in everything.

Religions that celebrate the Trinity I can't really say teach of ONE Perfect God...it's worshiping 3 entities and "claiming" they are part of a while to explain it away lol.
In the same way you claim that polytheistic Hinduism is a misconception, a Christian who believes in the trinity would refer to calling it three entities a misconception.
God can chose to explain himself to people using the concept of three entities interacting in different ways if he wants. If He exists than I expect his boundaries are far beyond what we can imagine.
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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optimisticcynic

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 09:31:49 PM »
but the point is the Hindus actually makes more sense. each one has different attributes but are part of the greater whole. I still can't figure out the difference between the father and the holy ghost.
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crackpipe larry

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 03:39:59 AM »
should cost $10..  or less, might go $15..
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ERTW

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2010, 09:03:45 AM »
but the point is the Hindus actually makes more sense. each one has different attributes but are part of the greater whole. I still can't figure out the difference between the father and the holy ghost.
You could think of the Holy Ghost/Spirit as the Father's power on Earth, whereas Jesus is the messenger. When Satan temps Jesus he tells him that angels will save him from falling to his death. The only reason I can think of for Satan to say this is that Jesus is a man and cannot fly. Of course, Jesus has full access to the power of the Holy Spirit to work miracles, but if he chooses not to use it and can still be killed (and he was).
That is the way I think of it, but I am not a Bible scholar so I don't know how accurate my analogy is.
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Daz555

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2010, 05:14:53 AM »
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an, 112:1-4)

My question, is there any religion that teaches the existence of a Perfect God?
If your god is perfect why did it feel the need to create the universe? This is the action of something that 'wants' something - hardly the actions of a perfect god.

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ERTW

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2010, 03:41:10 PM »
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an, 112:1-4)

My question, is there any religion that teaches the existence of a Perfect God?
If your god is perfect why did it feel the need to create the universe? This is the action of something that 'wants' something - hardly the actions of a perfect god.
Unless the need for love and compassion is part of the very essence of perfection.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2010, 12:53:36 AM »
As I said earlier, unless you have a quantifiable measure for 'perfection' this entire discussion is a waste of time.

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babsinva

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Re: The Perfect God
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2010, 08:24:58 AM »
Doesn't change anything - was agreeing with you in reference to the many religions that do have an imperfect God based on their understanding of God and additional traditions or rituals applied.

Yes, but the judgement of whether or not that God is 'perfect' is entirely yours. How do you come to the conclusion that one God is perfect whereas another is not? You say "based on their understanding . . . or rituals", but what about them reveals imperfection, and on what basis do you make that judgement?

Until you define perfection, I don't see how you can identify or demonstrate imperfection.
Actually I did not start this thread, nor did I claim God was imperfect.  The religious peoples of all denominations and nations have by their own hand defined God as imperfect based on what I said already ... attaching rituals and traditions to religion, which are against the very bible they say they stand behind.  Will explain more later.

Religions that celebrate the Trinity I can't really say teach of ONE Perfect God...it's worshiping 3 entities and "claiming" they are part of a while to explain it away lol.

Trinity already discussed.  And agreed.

For some reason not many people take the time to learn the most basic parts of the other major religions.
That is true, but I have studied Judaism, Muslims' religion of Islam, Irminism, Paganism, the occult, Gnosticism as a religion (not agnosticism) and the many branches of Christianity, among others.

As I said earlier, unless you have a quantifiable measure for 'perfection' this entire discussion is a waste of time.

To answer this and expand more upon Wilmore's post - I will use Catholicism for example.  My own mother taught religion for Sunday school classes, and she taught idolatry was not scriptural and against God, and as one example she gave the Golden Cow that was erected and worshipped in biblical times.  But my mother prays to saints, (St Jude and St Christopher) and bows her head in front of statues, and kneels down in front of statues, and prays to Jesus' mother with the "Hail Mary," and yet that is idolatry.  She still prays that way today.  I love my mother, but she is still a hypocrite.

First of all St Christopher was never a saint, or a holy one, or an annointed one, or an apostle, or disciple, or did anything particularly noteworthy, yet she and other Catholics pray to him.  Why?  In fact there is no mention of Christopher in the Bible at all that I know of.  For that matter why does she pray to St Jude, instead of St Mark, St Luke, St Matthew or Saint John?  In her Bible the 4 gospel writers all have the word St (saint) in front of them, but she does not pray to them.  I am not saying she should, only that her reasoning to pray to St Jude is flawed. (and tradition)

She also has a statue of baby Jesus, in which she prays with a Novena, which is a 9-day prayer.  Why 9 days?  Why not 8 or 10?  Why is 9 so important?  In fact the use of numbers in the bible shows that 7, 10 and 12 reflect allness or completeness not 9.  Not that I am saying she should say the prayer 7, 10 or 12 times, just that her reason for 9 times is flawed. (and ritualistic) Moreover this statue shows Jesus so rudely depicted with a bejeweled crown, and clad in red velvet robe with fur-lined trim.  Jesus was a humble carpenter and never dressed this way.  He would not have wanted that for himself nor would he want anyone to pray that way or imagine him that way.  Again flawed.

Like I said earlier  - rituals and tradition.  The One true God does not need rituals or traditions, thereby the people of certain religions assigning such rituals and traditions to their god has in effect made their god not perfect.   
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."