FAQ - volunteers needed!

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Jack

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FAQ - volunteers needed!
« on: February 04, 2010, 01:51:25 PM »
I searched the forums for a generalized description of Electromagnetic Acceleration, but I haven't found one. I need a well-written description of EA that is two sentences long for the upcoming FAQ update. If anyone of you can help me with this, that would be great.

I'm also having trouble with Google Earth, Plate Tectonics, and movements of the stars.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 10:29:54 PM by Jack »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 07:30:20 PM »
EAT is fringe and has no place in the FAQ.

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Jack

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 07:46:19 PM »
Okay. What alternative theory are you proposing?

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SupahLovah

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 09:10:20 PM »
EAT is fringe and has no place in the FAQ.
EAT is frequently asked about. The FAQ is for Frequently Asked Questions.
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 09:57:44 PM »
Okay. What alternative theory are you proposing?

I'm not.

EAT is fringe and has no place in the FAQ.
EAT is frequently asked about. The FAQ is for Frequently Asked Questions.

EAT isn't part of conventional Flat Earth Theory.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 10:32:08 PM by Tom Bishop »

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SupahLovah

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 11:54:16 PM »
Isn't a part of YOUR Flat Earth Theory.

As long as questions keep being asked about it, I believe it is a Frequently Asked Question relating to Flat Earth Theory.
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 01:36:14 AM »
I agree. I think that EAT has become a part of FET, even if it's not part of the traditional/conventional model. Personally, I'd hate to see TFES turn into an institution of dogma or convention.


Something else I'd like to see incorporated into the FAQ are links to longer topics (or where possible the wiki) included within the FAQ, so that if people are not satisfied with the short explanations given in the FAQ (and given the nature of any FAQ, they'll have to be short), there is a link right there that they can click on for more information.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 09:57:39 AM »
EAT is fringe and has no place in the FAQ.
EAT is frequently asked about. The FAQ is for Frequently Asked Questions.

EAT isn't part of conventional Flat Earth Theory.

There doesn't seem to be a conventional FET anymore.  It seems that every FE'er has their own model.  I believe that the FAQ should have summary of the all the different FE models and the FEW should have more detailed descriptions of these models.  I believe that this would make it easier for both sides to keep track of which model is being discussed.  It would also allow FE researchers to be able to debate and resolve the conflicting aspects of the different models.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 01:27:52 PM »
There doesn't seem to be a conventional FET anymore.  It seems that every FE'er has their own model.  I believe that the FAQ should have summary of the all the different FE models and the FEW should have more detailed descriptions of these models.  I believe that this would make it easier for both sides to keep track of which model is being discussed.  It would also allow FE researchers to be able to debate and resolve the conflicting aspects of the different models.

I wouldn't mind EAT being included into conventional Flat Earth Theory if there were some sort of positive evidence for it.

Just read through the Wiki sometime. There is always some sort of evidence given, whether you agree with it or not, to back up the mechanics of the effects which manage the sun and the sinking ship (ie. sun magnification, ship restoration).

EAT, however, doesn't seem to have any supporting evidence for the bending of light what-so-ever.

One might as well propose a hyperbolic earth. A hyperbolic earth would also match up well enough. It's possible to think up many imaginative hypothesis' (ie. sky mirrors) to explain whatever you wish. The hypothesis doesn't really mean anything until there is some sort of evidence suggesting that it might be the case.

There is a difference between a hypothetical model, and a theoretical one. A hypothetical model has no evidence what-so-ever, existing only as an idea, while a theoretical model has some form of evidence suggesting that it is the case.

It's my opinion that the FAQ should only support theoretical models which have some sort of supporting evidence behind them.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 01:43:42 PM by Tom Bishop »

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SupahLovah

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 02:21:02 PM »
I've never seen proof of ship restoration, and I've looked at ships going over the horizon with and without a telescope.
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2010, 02:36:58 PM »
I've never seen proof of ship restoration, and I've looked at ships going over the horizon with and without a telescope.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Ships+appear+to+sink+as+they+recede+past+the+horizon

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2010, 03:15:43 PM »
I've never seen proof of ship restoration, and I've looked at ships going over the horizon with and without a telescope.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Ships+appear+to+sink+as+they+recede+past+the+horizon

That's just completely wrong. You just accept the word of somebody who died 130 years ago with no verifiable evidence, merely an anecdotal account, yet modern eyewitness accounts and even photographs are discarded by you.
Proof, if ever it was needed, that Bishop should have no input into the FAQ.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2010, 03:39:56 PM »
Quote
That's just completely wrong. You just accept the word of somebody who died 130 years ago with no verifiable evidence, merely an anecdotal account, yet modern eyewitness accounts and even photographs are discarded by you.

There haven't been any modern accounts or photographs of a half-sunken shipped viewed with a telescope.

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SupahLovah

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 06:54:50 PM »
When I fly out to california in november for my girlfriend's birthday (we're taking a vacation. :D) I'll see what I can do for you, tom.
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

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markjo

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2010, 09:51:44 PM »
Guys, this is not a FET debate thread.  Please stay on topic.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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markjo

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 09:59:39 PM »
It's my opinion that the FAQ should only support theoretical models which have some sort of supporting evidence behind them.

Tom, as has been mentioned before, the purpose of the FAQ is deal with Frequently Asked Questions.  Like it or not, EAT is frequently discussed on this site and therefore should have a place in the FAQ, even if it has a disclaimer saying that it is unproven and controversial within the FET community.  The EA supporters should then expand their theory and provide any evidence that they have in a corresponding wiki page.

In fact, it may not hurt to have links in the FAQ to corresponding wiki pages for further information.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 10:17:35 PM »
Tom, as has been mentioned before, the purpose of the FAQ is deal with Frequently Asked Questions.

The FAQ deals with Frequently Asked Questions about Flat Earth Theory.

Being a hypothesis, EAT has no part in Flat Earth Theory.

Quote
Like it or not, EAT is frequently discussed on this site and therefore should have a place in the FAQ, even if it has a disclaimer saying that it is unproven and controversial within the FET community.

The "Sky Mirror" is also frequently brought up and questioned.

Why isn't anyone championing for the "Sky Mirror" to be included into the FAQ?

Loads of people have questions about the "Sky Mirror". It's not part of conventional Flat Earth Theory, and is really nothing more than a hypothesis without evidence, yet people still have a million questions about it. Any frequent member of this forum knows that there are discussions going on about the "Sky Mirror" every single week.

Shouldn't that be in the FAQ as well?

Why not?

It just has to be frequently asked about to have a part in the FAQ, right? No one can deny that the "Sky Mirror" is frequently discussed.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 10:30:59 PM by Tom Bishop »

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SupahLovah

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 03:50:45 AM »
Tom, as has been mentioned before, the purpose of the FAQ is deal with Frequently Asked Questions.

The FAQ deals with Frequently Asked Questions about Flat Earth Theory.

Being a hypothesis, EAT has no part in Flat Earth Theory.

Quote
Like it or not, EAT is frequently discussed on this site and therefore should have a place in the FAQ, even if it has a disclaimer saying that it is unproven and controversial within the FET community.

The "Sky Mirror" is also frequently brought up and questioned.

Why isn't anyone championing for the "Sky Mirror" to be included into the FAQ?

Loads of people have questions about the "Sky Mirror". It's not part of conventional Flat Earth Theory, and is really nothing more than a hypothesis without evidence, yet people still have a million questions about it. Any frequent member of this forum knows that there are discussions going on about the "Sky Mirror" every single week.

Shouldn't that be in the FAQ as well?

Why not?

It just has to be frequently asked about to have a part in the FAQ, right? No one can deny that the "Sky Mirror" is frequently discussed.
You're right! There should be a sky mirror part in the FAQs. I guess we were staying on what was being discussed in the OP.
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

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markjo

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 08:34:59 AM »
Tom, as has been mentioned before, the purpose of the FAQ is deal with Frequently Asked Questions.

The FAQ deals with Frequently Asked Questions about Flat Earth Theory.

Being a hypothesis, EAT has no part in Flat Earth Theory.

Tom, hypotheses are often components of a greater theory.  EAT is a component of some FET models.  Again, I believe that all FET models should be summarized in the FAQ and expanded upon in the wiki.  Even though I'm an RE'er, I firmly that this is the a good way way to promote and advance FET.

Quote
Like it or not, EAT is frequently discussed on this site and therefore should have a place in the FAQ, even if it has a disclaimer saying that it is unproven and controversial within the FET community.

The "Sky Mirror" is also frequently brought up and questioned.

Why isn't anyone championing for the "Sky Mirror" to be included into the FAQ?

*snip*

It just has to be frequently asked about to have a part in the FAQ, right? No one can deny that the "Sky Mirror" is frequently discussed.

Sky mirrors aren't discussed nearly as much as EAT, but if they were, then yes, they should be in the FAQ (and in the wiki).  Just because you don't agree with EAT or sky mirrors, that doesn't mean that they don't belong in the FAQ.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 11:51:37 AM »
The sky mirror should not be included in the FAQ because the only person who ever uses it as any part of FET is Parsifal, therefore it is definitely fringe theory. It's only ever discussed when he brings it up. Anyway, it's been debunked in about four different ways.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 12:29:53 AM »
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Tom, hypotheses are often components of a greater theory.  EAT is a component of some FET models.

Not the conventional model.

Quote
Again, I believe that all FET models should be summarized in the FAQ and expanded upon in the wiki.

I don't. It creates confusion between the real model and someone's fantasy model.

Quote
Even though I'm an RE'er, I firmly that this is the a good way way to promote and advance FET.

I don't see how FET is going to advance by introducing a fantasy hypothesis. To consider without evidence is exactly the sort of thing Samuel Birley Rowbotham cautions us about in the first chapter of Earth Not a Globe.

Speculations must be backed with evidence before they can be considered.

Quote
Just because you don't agree with EAT or sky mirrors, that doesn't mean that they don't belong in the FAQ.

EAT, having no evidence what-so-ever, is at odds with Rowbotham's perspective model which already explains the Sinking Ship and other phenomena just fine. There is evidence supporting Rowbotham's perspective model. There is no evidence supporting EAT.

I see absolutely no reason to introduce a fantasy hypothesis to compete with conventional Flat Earth Theory. There is already a mechanism which has positive evidence behind it.

Evidence > No Evidence

Once some sort of evidence has been collected to suggest EAT, it can be considered as an alternative. Introducing it into the FAQ suggests that it is an alternative when it is not.

Something with no evidence can never be an alternative to something with evidence.

I am also unhappy that last year someone added a passage to the FAQ which states that the planets and celestial bodies may be flat disks. That's another fantasy hypothesis without evidence. It has caused a surge of people reading the FAQ assuming that the Flat Earth Model proposes a world with disk-like sun, moon, and planets.

It does not. The Flat Earth Model does not say anything of the sort. That is just someone's wild fantasy they've speculated upon without showing any evidence what-so-ever.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 12:57:03 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Euclid

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 01:01:32 AM »
Tom, I though you had accepted the need for some sort of "bendy light"?
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 01:15:11 AM »
Tom, I though you had accepted the need for some sort of "bendy light"?

In the past I've spoken in support of the possibility of the bending of light. But ultimately there's no positive evidence behind it and is a completely arbitrary hypothesis. You can replace "bending light" with "hyperbolic earth" and get the same results.

Rowbotham's perspective theory at least has some sort of evidence to suggest that it is the case. Johnson was able to restore the opposite shore of Lake Taho into view. Shenton has a panorama of a coastline through a telescope somewhere in his collection. There are numerous accounts of restored ships in Zetetic Cosmogony, ENAG, and Cellular Cosmogony, which is why I must ultimately throw my support behind the perspective theory which states that our previous understanding of perspective is flawed and that the Vanishing Point limits our viewing distance.

Evidence beats No Evidence any day of the week. A hypothesis with no supporting evidence does not hold a candle to a theory with supporting evidence behind it. There is no reason to consider a hypothesis as an alternative to a theory.

Adding EAT to the FAQ as an alternative to conventional theory would be completely inappropriate, as it is with whoever added the statement about the sun and moon being disks. All it will do is create confusion.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 02:31:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Euclid

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 01:19:21 AM »
I don't think bendy light is necessary to explain such things as the sinking ship effect, but I do believe it is necessary to explain sunsets.  A look at the geometry of the sun and earth at sunset will show that light must bend in a way that cannot be explained by atmospheric refraction or any known physical phenomenon.  I think you have supported this view, for example with this diagram:

I think this places it outside the realm of mere speculation.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2010, 01:22:23 AM »
Quote
I don't think bendy light is necessary to explain such things as the sinking ship effect, but I do believe it is necessary to explain sunsets.

Why? Are you applying your art school perspective to observed reality?

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Moon squirter

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2010, 01:25:22 AM »
Tom, I though you had accepted the need for some sort of "bendy light"?

In the past I've spoken in support of the possibility of the bending of light....

Rowbotham's perspective theory...


The only truth here is that both EAT and Rotherham's "perspective" attempt to explain why the earth appears curved*.

*That's the real evidence, isn't it?
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Euclid

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2010, 01:41:09 AM »
Quote
I don't think bendy light is necessary to explain such things as the sinking ship effect, but I do believe it is necessary to explain sunsets.

Why? Are you applying your art school perspective to observed reality?

No, look at the diagram, one which you drew, or at least posted before.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2010, 01:58:30 AM »
No, look at the diagram, one which you drew, or at least posted before.

You're right. I did draw that diagram.

However, a diagram in and of itself isn't evidence of anything other than an idea.

EAT might be a "working model," but it's not one with any supporting evidence.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 02:05:26 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Euclid

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2010, 02:09:59 AM »
No, look at the diagram, one which you drew, or at least posted before.

You're right. I did draw that diagram.

However, a diagram in and of itself isn't evidence of anything. You can use it if you want. But it's just a hypothetical model.

I haven't seen any evidence which suggests that light bends. I have seen evidence for perspective, however. When we compare something without evidence to something with evidence, the one without evidence is rejected on grounds of parsimony.

Bendy light can be deduced from the available evidence.  We through observation from points several thousands of kilometers apart conclude the sun is several hundreds of kilometers above us.  If light traveled in straight lines, the sun is at such a height that its angle from the horizon would be too large to be explained by Rowbotham's perspective, likely something on order of 10 degrees.  Thus, the sun's light must take a curved path to the ground so it would it's angle to the horizon is much less, as shown in the diagram.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Moon squirter

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Re: FAQ - volunteers needed!
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2010, 03:15:12 AM »
Assume the FE distance from the north pole to the equator is 7,000 miles and that the height of the sun is 3000 miles.  In summer the sun is going around the FE equator.

At midnight the FE sun would be 14,000 miles away from the observer, 3000 miles up.

That would be tan-1 (3000/14000) degrees = 12o above the horizon [at midnight!!].
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.