Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread

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Thermal Detonator

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Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« on: January 31, 2010, 04:56:55 PM »
I would like an answer from the flat guys as to why during the Antarctic summer the sun appears to describe a complete circle around the horizon without setting, as this is incompatible with any known model of a flat earth. In the Ice Wall model the sun cannot pass behind you, and in the Wilmore model the speed of the sun would need to vary as it crossed the sky.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 02:57:58 AM »
The sky mirror has a diameter greater than that of the ice wall, so when the Sun reflects off it it appears to come from the opposite direction to when its light reaches the observer directly.
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ERTW

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 03:02:53 AM »
By diameter do you imply that the sky mirror is in a roughly circular shape, as seen from 'above'.
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 03:09:54 AM »
By diameter do you imply that the sky mirror is in a roughly circular shape, as seen from 'above'.

I would expect it to be such, yes, because solar behaviour is not observed to vary with longitude.
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ERTW

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 03:20:35 AM »
The sky mirror has a diameter greater than that of the ice wall, so when the Sun reflects off it it appears to come from the opposite direction to when its light reaches the observer directly.
Won't the reflection of the sun appear as diffuse light elsewhere in the world, except at the focal point of the mirror?
Assumptions:
Mirror is concave and circular
Sun is roughly a point source relative to the size of the earth and mirror

It also seems that during the day we should be able to see the reflection of the sun in the sky mirror, especially at the north pole, which would roughly be the focal point of the mirror.
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 03:40:58 AM »
Won't the reflection of the sun appear as diffuse light elsewhere in the world, except at the focal point of the mirror?
Assumptions:
Mirror is concave and circular
Sun is roughly a point source relative to the size of the earth and mirror

It also seems that during the day we should be able to see the reflection of the sun in the sky mirror, especially at the north pole, which would roughly be the focal point of the mirror.

The curvature of the mirror does not resemble a section of a sphere. Rather, it is a shape formed by revolving an ellipse about the north pole, but with focal points at the Sun's position during the southern summer and at the surface of Antarctica opposite that, such that the light from the Sun is focused onto the opposite side of the world during winter. Because an ellipse focuses all the light from the Sun onto the other focus, other areas on Earth would not observe even diffuse light, and during the northern summer light would be hitting the mirror with a greater angle of incidence, so the angle of reflection would be correspondingly greater and the diffuse light would end up beyond the ice wall.
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ERTW

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 03:54:04 AM »
Before going on are we assuming permanently occupied Antarctic outpost? More than one? Otherwise there is no point because the ice wall guards won't let you observe this anyway.
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 03:57:24 AM »
Before going on are we assuming permanently occupied Antarctic outpost? More than one? Otherwise there is no point because the ice wall guards won't let you observe this anyway.

I don't like the idea of ice wall guards; I tend to favour a very small, relaxed conspiracy, because a larger one is much more implausible. Yes, I'd say there are permanently occupied outposts in Antarctica.
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ERTW

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 04:04:49 AM »
Ok, so the round mirror has an elliptical cross section which focuses it to the opposite side of the earth. But the mirror is still round from 'above', so it seems like the only place the sun will appear whole is above the north pole, but at some height due to the elliptical cross section. The majority of the reflected light from the sun will reflect to the ice wall/antartica, but it will diffuse after it passes the north pole will it not? If so, you will never see a complete sun except the real one, unless you are at around half the height of the sun above the north pole.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 04:07:36 AM »
Steve, EAT seems to mostly assume a standard FE model. I'd love to see how it could be applied to the alternative model I and others propose.
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 04:19:36 AM »
Ok, so the round mirror has an elliptical cross section which focuses it to the opposite side of the earth. But the mirror is still round from 'above', so it seems like the only place the sun will appear whole is above the north pole, but at some height due to the elliptical cross section. The majority of the reflected light from the sun will reflect to the ice wall/antartica, but it will diffuse after it passes the north pole will it not? If so, you will never see a complete sun except the real one, unless you are at around half the height of the sun above the north pole.

Here is an illustration of a cross-section of the sky mirror (not to scale, bendy light not accounted for - just to show the general idea):



The green horizontal line is the surface of the Earth, and the yellow circle is the Sun. The continuous portion of the ellipse is part of the sky mirror; rotating this about the north pole gives the shape of the entire mirror. The lines from the Sun to the mirror, and then to the ground, show how the Sun is reflected.

Steve, EAT seems to mostly assume a standard FE model. I'd love to see how it could be applied to the alternative model I and others propose.

I will give the matter some thought, although I don't see how it is relevant to the thread.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2010, 12:46:28 PM »
The sky mirror as you model it can be disproved by its inability to reflect the ground when the sun is away from it, and that it does not obscure the stars, that one would observe a sudden cutoff of the suns reflection as one travelled further north out from under the mirror, and that the seasonal variation between winter and summer would not be as it is in reality.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 05:25:49 PM »
The sky mirror as you model it can be disproved by its inability to reflect the ground when the sun is away from it

It does do that. It's just that scattered sunlight and starlight are both far brighter, so you don't notice the diffuse reflected light from the ground.

and that it does not obscure the stars

It is above the stars. The stars appear in front of it.

that one would observe a sudden cutoff of the suns reflection as one travelled further north out from under the mirror

Are there any recorded observations which show that this is not the case?

and that the seasonal variation between winter and summer would not be as it is in reality.

How so?
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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 06:31:24 PM »
Is there any proof that the sky mirror exists, beyond the notion that FET requires its existence in order to be plausible?
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Skeleton

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 11:58:48 AM »

It is above the stars. The stars appear in front of it.


Why doesnt it reflect the stars then, genius?
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 02:21:54 PM »
The sky mirror as you model it can be disproved by its inability to reflect the ground when the sun is away from it

It does do that. It's just that scattered sunlight and starlight are both far brighter, so you don't notice the diffuse reflected light from the ground.

and that it does not obscure the stars

It is above the stars. The stars appear in front of it.

that one would observe a sudden cutoff of the suns reflection as one travelled further north out from under the mirror

Are there any recorded observations which show that this is not the case?

and that the seasonal variation between winter and summer would not be as it is in reality.

How so?

1. You'd notice a reflection of the ground the same way that you can see other objects in the sky during the day, for example planes and hot air balloons.
2. It would reflect the stars, causing a double image.
3. Yes, the observations made by Captain Cook of the sun every day at noon during his voyages. You'd do well to learn from the science and navigation of 200 years ago.
4. According to your diagram, even if the sun moved further in towards the hub, it would still be reflecting light down at the same angle. This would still provide light to the Antarctic during winter. This has to be the case in your model, because from any given point in Antarctica in summer, you can see the sun even when it would be further away than the hub.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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2fst4u

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 10:53:00 PM »
a sky mirror will make the sun appear high in the sky all the time. In reality, the sun in Antarctica stays quite low to the horizon when not at the peak of the season. Explain?

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 01:07:39 PM »
So far, no explanations that match reality. Come on, many of you flat guys think FET has been proved, so a solution to this must be easy to come by. Otherwise you're in danger of RET being the only viable explanation for this phenomenon.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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John Davis

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 10:24:43 AM »
Light travels based on several parameters, some of which being altitude, time of subcycle, time of major aetheric cycle and "rimdistance".  This causes the effect you note.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 10:31:56 AM »
Light travels based on several parameters, some of which being altitude, time of subcycle, time of major aetheric cycle and "rimdistance".  This causes the effect you note.

Given that you know perfectly well that nobody besides yourself knows what the "subcycle" and "aetheric cycle" are, your post is worthless. If you feel you can contribute something that others can understand, please do so.
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 12:51:18 AM »
Is there any proof that the sky mirror exists, beyond the notion that FET requires its existence in order to be plausible?

Irrelevant. The OP asked for an explanation, not evidence to support it.

Why doesnt it reflect the stars then, genius?

It does, but diffusely, since no stars pass through either focal point.

1. You'd notice a reflection of the ground the same way that you can see other objects in the sky during the day, for example planes and hot air balloons.
2. It would reflect the stars, causing a double image.
3. Yes, the observations made by Captain Cook of the sun every day at noon during his voyages. You'd do well to learn from the science and navigation of 200 years ago.
4. According to your diagram, even if the sun moved further in towards the hub, it would still be reflecting light down at the same angle. This would still provide light to the Antarctic during winter. This has to be the case in your model, because from any given point in Antarctica in summer, you can see the sun even when it would be further away than the hub.

1. Not if the light isn't focused. It's like a photograph; the objects which are in focus are the stars and the Sun, so the unfocused ground doesn't attract your attention.
2. Again, the reflected light is not focused.
3. Did Captain Cook ever visit Antarctica?
4. If the Sun moved further towards the hub, it would no longer be at the focal point, so the reflected light would simply blend in with the sky.

a sky mirror will make the sun appear high in the sky all the time. In reality, the sun in Antarctica stays quite low to the horizon when not at the peak of the season. Explain?

Bendy light causes this effect in much the same way as it causes the Sun to appear lower in the sky near sunset.
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2fst4u

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 12:55:22 AM »
So bendy light causes an object directly overhead, to appear near the horizon? Wow what can't it do?

Even if bendy light did exist, I'm sure it wouldn't be capable of this.

Also: Yes Captain Cook did go to Antarctica. He was one of the first to cross the Antarctic circle. Your facts are obviously questionable.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 12:58:06 AM by 2fst4u »

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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 01:09:51 AM »
So bendy light causes an object directly overhead, to appear near the horizon? Wow what can't it do?

Even if bendy light did exist, I'm sure it wouldn't be capable of this.

The sky mirror is not directly over Antarctica.

Also: Yes Captain Cook did go to Antarctica.

Source?

Your facts are obviously questionable.

What facts have I provided that are so obviously questionable?
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 04:59:28 AM »
Bendy light causes this effect in much the same way as it causes the Sun to appear lower in the sky near sunset.

[parsifal] Your diagram doesn't show bendy light, so it is irrelevant. [/parsifal]
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2010, 05:00:25 AM »

Also: Yes Captain Cook did go to Antarctica.

Source?


As I have already said, Captain Cook's extremely detailed journals.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2010, 05:04:06 AM »

4. If the Sun moved further towards the hub, it would no longer be at the focal point, so the reflected light would simply blend in with the sky.

Causing there to be two times during the year when there would be no Sun visible from Antarctica at all. You really do love making up garbage don't you? You also don't really understand that something not at the focal point of a curved mirror often still remains visible, just distorted.
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2010, 05:12:55 AM »
[parsifal] Your diagram doesn't show bendy light, so it is irrelevant. [/parsifal]

I already stated that the diagram was not to scale and was intended only to illustrate the concept of the sky mirror.

As I have already said, Captain Cook's extremely detailed journals.

Could you provide a link to a copy of one, or quote it, and point out exactly which part supports your argument?

Causing there to be two times during the year when there would be no Sun visible from Antarctica at all.

Which two times would they be?

You also don't really understand that something not at the focal point of a curved mirror often still remains visible, just distorted.

I do understand this; it is just that the Sun is so small by comparison with the mirror that the distortion is enough to obscure it among the brighter lights already in the sky.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2010, 07:38:20 AM »
[parsifal] Your diagram doesn't show bendy light, so it is irrelevant. [/parsifal]

I already stated that the diagram was not to scale and was intended only to illustrate the concept of the sky mirror.


This is exactly the sort of rebuttal you give me whenever I use a diagram. Annoying, isn't it? Also, [parsifal]your diagram is useless without the correct light paths shown. [/parsifal]
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Parsifal

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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2010, 07:57:34 AM »
This is exactly the sort of rebuttal you give me whenever I use a diagram. Annoying, isn't it? Also, [parsifal]your diagram is useless without the correct light paths shown. [/parsifal]

I only did it the one time because you demanded I draw my diagram to scale, so I held you to the same standard. In this case, the diagram was clearly indicated as not being to scale or accounting for bendy light when I posted it.
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Re: Thermal Detonator's Antarctic Sun Thread
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2010, 09:42:34 AM »
Why doesnt it reflect the stars then, genius?

It does, but diffusely, since no stars pass through either focal point.


Source?