FET vs radioactive radiation.

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ERTW

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Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2010, 02:56:01 PM »
Quote
If that is all you can say then it is simply your one or two experiments vs hundreds of thousands of experiments that point to RET.

What experiments?

The second attempt of the Bedford level experiment by Wallace was an experiment to show that the Earth is round. Though the interpretation of its results can be called into question due to the wager it was based on, it was still refereed by an independent press person.

Also, every long flight is an example of a round Earth experiment, since clearly the airline companies assume it is so when estimating their flight times. Of course if you call up the grand Aerospace conspiracy you can ignore this evidence, but if you use that tactic this stops becoming a discussion about evidence.
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2010, 04:23:39 PM »
Did you document those different atmospheric conditions?  Time, date, water temperature, air temperature, etc.?

Why would I need to?

Quote
I assume that you think Daniel "recreated the Bedford Level Experiment" too.

I don't believe Daniel reported seeing any curvature in his trials.

Quote
The second attempt of the Bedford level experiment by Wallace was an experiment to show that the Earth is round. Though the interpretation of its results can be called into question due to the wager it was based on, it was still refereed by an independent press person.

There wasn't anyone independent at the wager. There was Hampden and his referee William Carpenter, and there was Hampden and his referee. Hapden and Carpenter walked away claiming that they had won the wager. Wallace and his referee walked away claiming that they had won. Each side walked away claiming that they had won.

The wager was for a year's worth of pay, a significant amount of money to lose in a wager, so it's understandable why both men would claim to have won.

Regardless, Lady Blount did the experiment to put matters to rest and here were her results:

    "The Old Bedford Level was the scene of further experiments over the years, until in 1904, photography was used to prove that the earth is flat. Lady Blount, a staunch believer in the zetetic method hired a photographer, Mr Cifton of Dallmeyer's who arrived at the Bedford Level with the firm's latest Photo-Telescopic camera. The apparatus was set up at one end of the clear six-mile length, while at the other end Lady Blount and some scientific gentlemen hung a large, white calico sheet over the Bedford bridge so that the bottom of it was near the water. Mr Clifton, lying down near Welney bridge with his camera lens two feet above the water level, observed by telescope the hanging of the sheet, and found that he could see the whole of it down to the bottom. This surprised him, for he was an orthodox globularist and round-earth theory said that over a distance of six miles the bottom of the sheet should bemore than 20 feet below his line of sight. His photograph showed not only the entire sheet but its reflection in the water below. That was certified in his report to Lady Blount, which concluded: "I should not like to abandon the globular theory off-hand, but, as far as this particular test is concerned, I am prepared to maintain that (unless rays of light will travel in a curved path) these six miles of water present a level surface."

Mrs. Peach also found a reference of these later trials in The English Mechanic, a scientific journal:

"The Flat Earth: another Bedford Canal experiment" (Bernard H.Watson, et al),
ENGLISH MECHANIC, 80:160, 1904

Bedford Canal, England. A repeat of the 1870 experiment.
"A train of empty turf-boats had just entered the Canal from the river Ouse, and
was about proceeding to Ramsey. I arranged with the captain to place the shallowest
boat last in the train, and to take me on to Welney Bridge, a distance of six
miles. A good telescope was then fixed on the lowest part of the stern of the last
boat. The sluice gate of the Old Bedford Bridge was 5ft. 8in. high, the turf-boat
moored there was 2ft. 6in. high, and the notice board was 6ft. 6in. from the water.
The sun was shining strongly upon them in the direction of the south-southwest; the
air was exceedingly still and clear, and the surface of the water smooth as a
molten mirror, so that everything was favourable for observation. At 1.15 p.m. the
train started for Welney. As the boats gradually receded, the sluice gate, the
turf-boat and the notice board continued to be visible to the naked eye for about
four miles. When the sluice gate and the turf-boat (being of a dark colour) became
somewhat indistinct, the notice board (which was white) was still plainly visible,
and remained so to the end of six miles. But on looking through the telescope all
the objects were distinctly visible throughout the whole distance. On reaching
Welney Bridge I made very careful and repeated observations, and finding several
men upon the banks of the canal, I called them to look through the telescope. They
all saw distinctly the white notice board, the sluice gate, and the black turf-boat
moored near them.

Now, as the telescope was 18in. above the water, The line of sight would touch the
horizon at one mile and a half away (if the surface were convex). The curvature of
the remaining four miles and a half would be 13ft. 6in. Hence the turf-boat should
have been 11ft., the top of the sluice gate 7ft. 10in., and the bottom of the
notice board 7ft. below the horizon.

My recent experiment affords undeniable proof of the Earth's unglobularity, because
it rests not on transitory vision; but my proof remains printed on the negative of
the photograph which Mr.Clifton took for me, and in my presence, on behalf of
J.H.Dallmeyer, Ltd.
A photograph can not 'imagine' nor lie!".

« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 08:21:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2010, 04:39:17 PM »
Did you document those different atmospheric conditions?  Time, date, water temperature, air temperature, etc.?

Why would I need to?

So that you could determine if atmospheric conditions had any impact on your observations.  Proper documentation is also essential for the peer review process.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2010, 04:52:35 PM »
Did you document those different atmospheric conditions?  Time, date, water temperature, air temperature, etc.?

Why would I need to?

So that you could determine if atmospheric conditions had any impact on your observations.  Proper documentation is also essential for the peer review process.

Obvervations have been done throughout the year under a plethora of different atmospheric conditions.

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ugaboga313

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Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2010, 05:06:45 PM »
So basically, your evidence is very shaky with unknown atmospheric conditions. You can't say our evidence is bad but then accept this evidence.


Set your level of acceptance of evidence. If you want to use ENAG and these sources, we should be able to use pretty much anything short of NASA (even some NASA stuff should be allowed). No point in arguing if one side has artificial limits imposed.

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ERTW

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Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2010, 06:09:30 PM »

    Quote
    The second attempt of the Bedford level experiment by Wallace was an experiment to show that the Earth is round. Though the interpretation of its results can be called into question due to the wager it was based on, it was still refereed by an independent press person.

    There wasn't anyone independent at the wager. There was Hampden and his referee William Carpenter, and there was Hampden and his referee. Hapden and Wallace walked away claiming that they had won the wager. Wallace and his referee walked away claiming that they had won.

    The wager was for a year's worth of pay, a significant amount of money to lose in a wager, so it's understandable why both men would claim to have won.

    Yes Tom, the referee was a mutually agreed independent party. Hampden's referee was not an independent party, he was another one from the Parallax crowd:
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V81-44XJ8G5-2&_user=1022551&_coverDate=12%2F01%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1184854235&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050484&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=1022551&md5=6f52318b68a0239dc4d5dedfb071a20f

    When the two referees disagreed a third man named John Henry Walsh was asked to make the final decision. After checking the evidence himself and seeing an optician on Hampden's insistence, he decided in favor of Wallace.

    Regardless, Lady Blount did the experiment to put matters to rest and here were her results:
    ...

    at he could see the whole of it down to the bottom.
    ...
     six miles of water present a level surface."
    [/list]


    Her test is completely different than Wallace's. If you hang a roughly plain sheet and obscure the bottom half, how can you know if you are seeing the whole sheet? This experiment makes no measurements, so I cant see it as being at all relevant to seriously proving the Earth is flat. Maybe if there was a bright yellow mark on the bottom of the sheet and this was still visible in the photograph it might mean something, but since we cant see the photograph (I have never seen it posted on this site), I see no evidence here.

    Mrs. Peach also found a reference of these later trials in The English Mechanic, a scientific journal:

    "The Flat Earth: another Bedford Canal experiment" (Bernard H.Watson, et al),
    ENGLISH MECHANIC, 80:160, 1904
    ...
     a distance of six
    ...
     the notice board was 6ft. 6in. from the water.
    ...
    visible to the naked eye for about four miles.
    ...
    the notice board (which was white) was still plainly visible, and remained so to the end of six miles.
    ...
    all the objects were distinctly visible throughout the whole distance.
    ...
    Now, as the telescope was 18in. above the water
    ...
    The line of sight would touch the horizon at one mile and a half away
    ...
     board 7ft. below the horizon.
    J.H.Dallmeyer, Ltd.
    A photograph can not 'imagine' nor lie!".



    This experiment is fails math at the outset. The author is using a quadratic approximation to determine the 'drop' behind the horizon, and hence estimates that the boat will be 7ft below the horizon. In fact, the 'bulge' of water over 6mi or about 9.6km is:
    h=R(1-cos(S/R))
    R=Radius
    S=half the arclength between points
    h=heigh of bulge

    Run the math and you get about 1.4m. According to the story the notice board was 6ft. 6in or 2m above the water, so you should be able to see the notice board with a good telescope from 6mi away.

    No problem here Tom, you got any other evidence?
    « Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 06:14:44 PM by ERTW »
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    markjo

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #36 on: January 28, 2010, 08:29:07 PM »
    Did you document those different atmospheric conditions?  Time, date, water temperature, air temperature, etc.?

    Why would I need to?

    So that you could determine if atmospheric conditions had any impact on your observations.  Proper documentation is also essential for the peer review process.

    Obvervations have been done throughout the year under a plethora of different atmospheric conditions.

    And exactly what might those conditions be?  How can anyone possibly peer review your observations if you have no idea what those conditions might be?  Don't you want anyone to peer review your observations?  Or is there a remote chance that you're lying and you never actually made those observations that you claim to have made?
    « Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 08:31:36 PM by markjo »
    Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
    Quote from: Robosteve
    Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
    Quote from: bullhorn
    It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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    Tom Bishop

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #37 on: January 28, 2010, 08:32:53 PM »
    Quote
    Yes Tom, the referee was a mutually agreed independent party. Hampden's referee was not an independent party, he was another one from the Parallax crowd:

    Hampden's referee, William Carpenter, was an FE'er and Wallace's referee was an RE'er. Each side got to choose their own referee.

    Quote
    When the two referees disagreed a third man named John Henry Walsh was asked to make the final decision. After checking the evidence himself and seeing an optician on Hampden's insistence, he decided in favor of Wallace.

    John Henry was an RE'er and an associate of Wallace.

    Quote
    Her test is completely different than Wallace's. If you hang a roughly plain sheet and obscure the bottom half, how can you know if you are seeing the whole sheet?

    In the text I've provided the observer states that they were able to see the entirety of the blanket, including its reflection on the water below. Please read what I've provided.

    Quote
    This experiment makes no measurements

    Actually, it does.

    Quote
    so I cant see it as being at all relevant to seriously proving the Earth is flat. Maybe if there was a bright yellow mark on the bottom of the sheet and this was still visible in the photograph it might mean something

    If you had actually read what I provided you would have seen the following quote:

      "His photograph showed not only the entire sheet but its reflection in the water below."

    Quote
    This experiment is fails math at the outset. The author is using a quadratic approximation to determine the 'drop' behind the horizon, and hence estimates that the boat will be 7ft below the horizon. In fact, the 'bulge' of water over 6mi or about 9.6km is:

    h=R(1-cos(S/R))
    R=Radius
    S=half the arclength between points
    h=heigh of bulge

    Run the math and you get about 1.4m.

    Well firstly, you didn't provide any math at all for your figure.

    Here's a chart for earth drop:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

    Over six miles the earth drops 24 feet. You can find the calculations at the bottom.
    « Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:01:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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    Tom Bishop

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #38 on: January 28, 2010, 08:34:53 PM »
    Did you document those different atmospheric conditions?  Time, date, water temperature, air temperature, etc.?

    Why would I need to?

    So that you could determine if atmospheric conditions had any impact on your observations.  Proper documentation is also essential for the peer review process.

    Obvervations have been done throughout the year under a plethora of different atmospheric conditions.

    And exactly what might those conditions be?  How can anyone possibly peer review your observations if you have no idea what those conditions might be?  Don't you want anyone to peer review your observations?  Or is there a remote chance that you're lying and you never actually made those observations that you claim to have made?

    Repetitions weren't intended for peer review. They were intended to rule out the possibility that there was a "chance" optical illusion on any single occurrence.

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    JBJosh

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #39 on: January 28, 2010, 08:40:40 PM »
    Well firstly, you didn't provide any math at all for your figure.

    Here's a chart for earth drop:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

    Over six miles the earth drops 24 feet. You can find the calculations at the bottom.
    Well firstly, Rowbotham didn't provide any math for his chart. At least, none that I can see.
    Poor grammar is the internet equivalent of body odor.
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    Tom Bishop

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #40 on: January 28, 2010, 08:44:29 PM »
    Well firstly, you didn't provide any math at all for your figure.

    Here's a chart for earth drop:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

    Over six miles the earth drops 24 feet. You can find the calculations at the bottom.
    Well firstly, Rowbotham didn't provide any math for his chart. At least, none that I can see.

    He shows how it was calculated at the bottom.

    The number of miles is squared, multiplied by 8, and divided by 12. The quotient is the curvation required.

    Rowbotham goes on to say:

      "Any work on geometry or geodesy will furnish proofs of this declination."

    Which is correct. Most sources you will find will say that the earth drops at a rate of 8 inches per mile.
    « Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 08:50:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

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    JBJosh

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #41 on: January 28, 2010, 08:52:41 PM »
    Well firstly, you didn't provide any math at all for your figure.

    Here's a chart for earth drop:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

    Over six miles the earth drops 24 feet. You can find the calculations at the bottom.
    Well firstly, Rowbotham didn't provide any math for his chart. At least, none that I can see.

    He shows how it was calculated at the bottom.

    The number of miles is squared, multiplied by 8, and divided by 12. The quotient is the curvation required.

      "Any work on geometry or geodesy will furnish proofs of this declination."
    Ah, okay. I didn't see that then, sorry.
    Poor grammar is the internet equivalent of body odor.
    My site.

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    markjo

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #42 on: January 28, 2010, 09:23:47 PM »
    Repetitions weren't intended for peer review. They were intended to rule out the possibility that there was a "chance" optical illusion on any single occurrence.

    In other words, you just want us to take your word for it.  ::)
    Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
    Quote from: Robosteve
    Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
    Quote from: bullhorn
    It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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    ERTW

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #43 on: January 28, 2010, 10:08:59 PM »
    Quote
    Yes Tom, the referee was a mutually agreed independent party. Hampden's referee was not an independent party, he was another one from the Parallax crowd:

    Hampden's referee, William Carpenter, was an FE'er and Wallace's referee was an RE'er. Each side got to choose their own referee.

    Quote
    When the two referees disagreed a third man named John Henry Walsh was asked to make the final decision. After checking the evidence himself and seeing an optician on Hampden's insistence, he decided in favor of Wallace.

    John Henry was an RE'er and an associate of Wallace.

    Please link to a source that shows that John Henry Walsh was an associate of Wallace. The point about him being a RE'er is moot since the general scientific consensus at the time was that the Earth was round. If he doesn't count as a fair referee who possibly could? Does this mean that we cant prove anything to each other because everyone is biased? Of course there is bias, so we have to settle on the balance of probabilities as always. Even courts have to deal with this. Only mathematicians can taste complete certainty.

    Quote
    Her test is completely different than Wallace's. If you hang a roughly plain sheet and obscure the bottom half, how can you know if you are seeing the whole sheet?

    In the text I've provided the observer states that they were able to see the entirety of the blanket, including its reflection on the water below. Please read what I've provided.
    The upper portions of the sheet would still have a reflection on the water, so there is still no way to know you are seeing the bottom of the sheet unless it is marked.

    Quote
    This experiment makes no measurements

    Actually, it does.
    Your right, one measurement is made, that the telescope was 2ft above the water. However his assumption that "sheet should be more than 20 feet below his line of sight" is totally inaccurate. I show this with my later math.

    Quote
    so I cant see it as being at all relevant to seriously proving the Earth is flat. Maybe if there was a bright yellow mark on the bottom of the sheet and this was still visible in the photograph it might mean something

    If you had actually read what I provided you would have seen the following quote:

      "His photograph showed not only the entire sheet but its reflection in the water below."

    Quote
    This experiment is fails math at the outset. The author is using a quadratic approximation to determine the 'drop' behind the horizon, and hence estimates that the boat will be 7ft below the horizon. In fact, the 'bulge' of water over 6mi or about 9.6km is:

    h=R(1-cos(S/R))

    R=Radius
    S=half the arclength between points
    h=heigh of bulge

    Run the math and you get about 1.4m.

    Well firstly, you didn't provide any math at all for your figure.

    Here's a chart for earth drop:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

    Over six miles the earth drops 24 feet. You can find the calculations at the bottom.

    The diagram you provided makes two assumptions that greatly affect the outcome of the predictions, and make the predictions in this test totally backwards.
    Assumption 1: The viewers sight line is perfectly parallel with the horizontal (which it is not unless they used a level on their telescope, such as with a theodolite)
    Assumption 2: The viewers sight line is tangent to the horizontal (aka the telescope or the viewers eyes are on the water)

    I did provide the math. I gave you the equation for the bulge on a circle due to a secant line. I even labeled the variables nicely
    Now here is a diagram to accompany:

    The equation in this diagram would instead be b=R(1-cos(s/R))
    The math used in this article and pointed to by your link is referring to the situation on the left, where the observer is restricted to a horizontal sight line. The case in the article is closer to the right side, where both telescope and observed object are above the water. Of course, both are not at the same height as implied in the diagram, but the 'bulge' calculated is still accurate. I will post a more general equation involving arbitrary heights of both observers, but it will take me a bit of time to simplify it.
    Don't diss physics until you try it!

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    Its a Sphere

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #44 on: January 29, 2010, 04:57:35 AM »
    I don't believe Daniel reported seeing any curvature in his trials.

    I don't believe he reproduced the experiment.  What's your point?

    Obvervations have been done throughout the year under a plethora of different atmospheric conditions.
    anecdotal at best and also a Hasty Generalization
    Quote
    In science, anecdotal evidence has been defined as:

    "information that is not based on facts or careful study"[2]
    "non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts"[3]
    "reports or observations of usually unscientific observers"[4]
    "casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"[5]
    "information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically"
    [/quote]
    "We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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    ERTW

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #45 on: January 29, 2010, 07:49:04 AM »
    I apologize. I realize how long my post is and how it has nothing to do with radioactive radiation. I have successfully derailed this thread as was probably hoped. I will move my posts to the debate section.
    Don't diss physics until you try it!

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    ERTW

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    Re: FET vs radioactive radiation.
    « Reply #46 on: January 29, 2010, 07:58:19 AM »
    So back to radiation.
    Has any FET'er built themselves a vapor chamber, or developed a film exposed to radiation? Why is there no concern about these invisible particle/waves (the non-visible components, not the glowing parts) that are used around the world to produce countless 'images' of the insides of people for the purposes of medical diagnosis? If the FES has no proof of radiation, would it not be simpler for the hospital staff to hire a few Photoshop experts to produce MRI scan images, instead of building huge expensive machines? I see the scale of this potential conspiracy to be similar to NASA, and the motivating reasons to be the same, money.
    Don't diss physics until you try it!