My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)

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jtelroy

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Okay, while I think a lot of the science behind FET is odd, I find it plausible, discounting anything that the "Conspiracy" tenet says should be discounted.

Light travels in bendy, depending on the orientation at which it is emitted from the source?

Alright, needs some more explanation on why "vertical" light bends and "non-vertical" doesn't, and how from any particular source this light knows what is "vertical" and what isn't, but yeah.  I can go with that.

The Earth is large flat disc surrounded by a large ice wall, and any curvature we've seen is an illusion caused by the aforementioned bendy light?  Yeah, I can go with that.

And it is traveling upward causing somethign reminiscent of Gravity?  Sure.  I can go with that.

But what I can't go with?

The conspiracy, from my interpretation, is what all of FET relies on.  Yes, all the science is plausible, but only if you've already assumed that the conspiracy is true.

And this is what bothers me.  A Conspiracy theory is not science.  A conspiracy theory by nature can never be consequently proven or disproven, making any Conspiracy theory a wishy washy thing.

Sure you can argue that 9/11 was staged by the government, but you can also argue that it wasn't.  And no matter how much the "It wasn't staged by the government" folks try with their arguments and evidence to convince the "It was staged by the government" group, the latter group will always be able to find some small piece of evidence, which through coincidence or misinterpretation will always be able to be championed as undeniable proof of the conspiracy.

The same goes for the Space Travel conspiracy theory.  No matter how much evidence RE'ers find that support that we have gone into space at some point or another, FE'ers will always find a piece of evidence that they can champion as their undeniable proof, regardless of its validity.

And the real problem?

FET relies on the conspiracy theory to be plausible.

Light *could* travel in that bendy fashion, but if we've gone into space, we would know that it wouldn't, because we would see the location of the Sun, and all the planets orbiting around it, and we could use various experiments to measure the way light travels.

The Earth *could* be a large disk moving up through space, but if we've gone into space we would know that it isn't, because we have taken pictures that would show that it isn't.

So there's my problem.

The science of FET relies on something that is not science to be plausible.

And as a scientist, I just can't consign to that.

So now, FE'ers, I invite you to convince me of your theory.

Do any of you have a way to explain this theory based on pure scientific fact that does not rely on a conspiracy to be plausible?

Or any other explanation that effectively removes the theories need for this conspiracy?  (I don't know what that would be, but if any of you have any idea, you're welcome to try.)


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Dino

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 04:42:14 PM »
I agree. It is very plausible.

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jtelroy

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 05:07:45 PM »
I agree. It is very plausible.


Only when taken with the Conspiracy though, which I don't believe.  So for me, the plausibility of the science is zero.  That's the main problem for me.

The science is plausible, but with no concrete proof I have to rely on the Conspiracy which is too shaky.

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Dino

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 05:12:28 PM »
I agree. It is very plausible.


Only when taken with the Conspiracy though, which I don't believe.  So for me, the plausibility of the science is zero.  That's the main problem for me.

The science is plausible, but with no concrete proof I have to rely on the Conspiracy which is too shaky.

I agree that the Conspiracy is on shaky ground. I expect it will collapse within the next 10 years and the truth will be out. The internet is going to make it much harder to sustain it.

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jtelroy

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Re: My Problem with FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 07:37:57 PM »
I agree. It is very plausible.


Only when taken with the Conspiracy though, which I don't believe.  So for me, the plausibility of the science is zero.  That's the main problem for me.

The science is plausible, but with no concrete proof I have to rely on the Conspiracy which is too shaky.

I agree that the Conspiracy is on shaky ground. I expect it will collapse within the next 10 years and the truth will be out. The internet is going to make it much harder to sustain it.

Well, if there is a Conspiracy, I would say that its pretty well established.

In my almost 19 years of life, I never heard of the flat earth society or any of its theories until about two weeks ago via a reference to it on the Wikipedia page for the book "The Mist" by Stephen King.

I've heard about the "We didn't land on the moon" conspiracy, and have seen several scientific documentaries which debunk the main points of that these theories.

I even work for Boy Scouts and this past summer taught the Space Exploration merit badge, with material from several various sources, and at one point was assisted by an Engineer who is working on the replacement for the Hubble Telescope.

My point is, Space Exploration has an excellent case for itself, and I doubt that suddenly all that information is going to be reversed.

I mean even if all that stuff is fake, how could you possible prove that?  There is no way to prove that we haven't been in space concretely.  You can scream "FAKE" all you want, but that's just a claim.

I stand by that no  FE'er hear can concretely prove to me that Humanity has never gone into space, although I invite anyone to try.  I know folks like Tom Bishop would answer this claim with the "Burden of Proof" shield but that still doesn't change my claim.

So I'll word it like this:

No FE'er can prove to me that humanity hasn't been in space, and my proof of this claim is that no-one has or will.

Feel free to try and prove me wrong though.

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Dino

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Re: My Problem with FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 08:19:56 PM »
I even work for Boy Scouts and this past summer taught the Space Exploration merit badge


And the brainwashing continues...


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jtelroy

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Re: My Problem with FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2010, 09:19:47 PM »
I even work for Boy Scouts and this past summer taught the Space Exploration merit badge
And the brainwashing continues...

I could say the same for you.

Calling my work "brainwashing" does not provide any proof that we have not been into space.  It only provides proof that you believe we haven't been into space.

Re: My Problem with FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 07:29:54 AM »
I even work for Boy Scouts and this past summer taught the Space Exploration merit badge


And the brainwashing continues...



Grow up.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Sefnug

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 02:14:20 PM »
There are lots of conspiracy theorys this is just another one in my opinion. but people can think what they want.

Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 03:34:12 PM »
Hey, I'm new here.  I've been lurking the forums for about three months and I've had almost the exact same viewpoint as the opening poster on FET.  The science of FET is no more ridiculous sounding (to me) than the science of gravity, relativity, inertia, or anything else I was taught in high school and college.  Forces that we cannot actually SEE have always been a mystery to me.  So the reason I'm not an FE'er OR an RE'er is because I have not been to space or antarctica/the ice wall myself so I cannot provide any helpful input on the argument. But I can say something about the conspiracy and the not-so-exact science behind all of them.

Remember the year that you caught mom and dad hiding the xmas presents from "santa" in the attic or placing them under the tree on xmas eve?  If you were like me, you almost didn't want to believe what you were seeing...and I continued to believe in and preach santa claus for years after that before I was old enough to figure it out and accept it.  I have the same reaction to the FE conspiracy.  It may be true that the conspiracy has been lying to me and covering up the truth for years, but I have become so attached to the conspiracy (as I did with santa) that I have trouble letting go of it.  Otherwise I find FET very cool.  Let the insults begin.

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jtelroy

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 03:57:56 PM »
Hey, I'm new here.  I've been lurking the forums for about three months and I've had almost the exact same viewpoint as the opening poster on FET.  The science of FET is no more ridiculous sounding (to me) than the science of gravity, relativity, inertia, or anything else I was taught in high school and college.  Forces that we cannot actually SEE have always been a mystery to me.  So the reason I'm not an FE'er OR an RE'er is because I have not been to space or antarctica/the ice wall myself so I cannot provide any helpful input on the argument. But I can say something about the conspiracy and the not-so-exact science behind all of them.

Remember the year that you caught mom and dad hiding the xmas presents from "santa" in the attic or placing them under the tree on xmas eve?  If you were like me, you almost didn't want to believe what you were seeing...and I continued to believe in and preach santa claus for years after that before I was old enough to figure it out and accept it.  I have the same reaction to the FE conspiracy.  It may be true that the conspiracy has been lying to me and covering up the truth for years, but I have become so attached to the conspiracy (as I did with santa) that I have trouble letting go of it.  Otherwise I find FET very cool.  Let the insults begin.

I find it interesting that you compare it to something that's decidedly untrue, and from the wording of your post I get the feeling that that was intentional (but I'm just making assumptions.)

I think I'll simply say that if you're comparison is true than you will one day come to realize that the conspiracy is not well founded (in my opinion at least, not to say that you are obligated to conform to this opinion.)

I think conspiracy theories in general are an interesting point psychologically.  Is it human nature to be distrustful of others?  Is it human nature to believe that extraodinary things are possible, hence conspiracy theories like the Roswell alien-landing cover up, and various other "the government is experimenting on how to travel through time" theories.

I just think its interesting just how many conspiracy theories have been made, especially about historically significant events.

Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 07:52:36 PM »
Santa has little to do with my point which was that in some point in all of our lives, although our thinking may have been infantile and our reasoning unsound and underdeveloped, have all been exposed to/the victims of some sort of conspiracy on a small scale.

I find the conspiracy sounds ridiculous, but that is only because I have been taught only one way my whole life.  As I've matured I have come to question almost everything that is presented to me, including such popular matters like aliens and 9/11 etc.  I guess the final question that I had not asked myself is that of the true form of the mass on which we live.  For all I know we are but a molecule on a greater being's chicken sandwich.

You present a great fact which is that conspiracy theories are not in short supply AND they attract people.  Perhaps that is the reason I was drawn to this website in the first place.  All things considered, though, the FAQ is definitely well thought out, however ridiculous it may sound.  FE'ers have answers for a lot of things.

Anyone think the fire at Charles K. Johnson's house was started by "the conspiracy?"

Also, there must be a better name for "them."  Perhaps "The Franchise" or something cool like that.  Theories can take off that way...lol.

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jtelroy

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 08:15:28 PM »
Santa has little to do with my point which was that in some point in all of our lives, although our thinking may have been infantile and our reasoning unsound and underdeveloped, have all been exposed to/the victims of some sort of conspiracy on a small scale.

I find the conspiracy sounds ridiculous, but that is only because I have been taught only one way my whole life.  As I've matured I have come to question almost everything that is presented to me, including such popular matters like aliens and 9/11 etc.  I guess the final question that I had not asked myself is that of the true form of the mass on which we live.  For all I know we are but a molecule on a greater being's chicken sandwich.

You present a great fact which is that conspiracy theories are not in short supply AND they attract people.  Perhaps that is the reason I was drawn to this website in the first place.  All things considered, though, the FAQ is definitely well thought out, however ridiculous it may sound.  FE'ers have answers for a lot of things.

Anyone think the fire at Charles K. Johnson's house was started by "the conspiracy?"

Also, there must be a better name for "them."  Perhaps "The Franchise" or something cool like that.  Theories can take off that way...lol.

I kinda tried to satire the Conspiracy theory tenet with my "Hand of Omega' troll that I did when I first got here.  But since it was a blatant troll the satire of it was over-looked.

While the possibility of their being some international Shadow Organization that runs around making conspiracies plausible by planting false evidence (i overly detailed this "theory" at http://endofomega.livejournal.com/) is ridiculous and almost certainly not true, but that's the point.

That is exactly how I see the FET Conspiracy: a conglomerate of all the world governments planting false evidence to convince the entire population the Earth is round.  And with no stated purpose either.

That's why I created the Hand of Omega.  From my perspective, It's not all that different from the one the FE'ers espouse.

And to add to my satire, I gave the Hand of Omega a stated purpose, one most ridiculuous.  I said they were trying to occupy the scientific minds of our day with these pointless debates so that they can summon an ancient evil god/alien called Cthulhu as described by legendary horror author H. P. Lovecraft.

So that's my argument against the conspiracy.  Look how a relatively similar one, change but slightly, appears completely ridiculous.

Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 08:51:03 PM »
Shadow organization...I love it.

What facsinates me the most is looking back through time at this question of the earth's formation, composition, orientation, shape, etc. and how the ancients must have been just so frustrated that it was at that time impossible to discern these things...hence numerous crackpot theories that stand alongside intelligent educated hypotheses.  I am not classing FET in either of these categories because, as I have mentioned, I have yet to achieve space flight or reach the ice wall...hehe.

In all seriousness, I AM still curious about "The Truth" as you put it, and I will never truly believe in something until I have witnessed it myself, which is more than can be said for half the members/trolls on this site who constantly parrot the "LOOOK AT DUR NASA PICS IT IS ROUND DUUUHHHH SHIPS AND SUNRISES HAAAA!" or "It appears flat, therefore it IS flat!" replies to what I believe to be a serious question.  That being said, if I had the money and resources, I would go south until I found out for myself.  What dissapoints me is that I have yet to find anyone who has presented that they have, in fact, been somewhere or saw something CONCRETE and INDISPUTABLE that proves either theory.  So...anyone have an airplane and a video recorder?

Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 08:30:37 AM »
Shadow organization...I love it.

What facsinates me the most is looking back through time at this question of the earth's formation, composition, orientation, shape, etc. and how the ancients must have been just so frustrated that it was at that time impossible to discern these things...hence numerous crackpot theories that stand alongside intelligent educated hypotheses.  I am not classing FET in either of these categories because, as I have mentioned, I have yet to achieve space flight or reach the ice wall...hehe.

In all seriousness, I AM still curious about "The Truth" as you put it, and I will never truly believe in something until I have witnessed it myself, which is more than can be said for half the members/trolls on this site who constantly parrot the "LOOOK AT DUR NASA PICS IT IS ROUND DUUUHHHH SHIPS AND SUNRISES HAAAA!" or "It appears flat, therefore it IS flat!" replies to what I believe to be a serious question.  That being said, if I had the money and resources, I would go south until I found out for myself.  What dissapoints me is that I have yet to find anyone who has presented that they have, in fact, been somewhere or saw something CONCRETE and INDISPUTABLE that proves either theory.  So...anyone have an airplane and a video recorder?

But why not just trust the testimonies of people who HAVE orbited the Earth or crossed Antarctica?
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Sefnug

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Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 09:01:56 AM »
Shadow organization...I love it.

What facsinates me the most is looking back through time at this question of the earth's formation, composition, orientation, shape, etc. and how the ancients must have been just so frustrated that it was at that time impossible to discern these things...hence numerous crackpot theories that stand alongside intelligent educated hypotheses.  I am not classing FET in either of these categories because, as I have mentioned, I have yet to achieve space flight or reach the ice wall...hehe.

In all seriousness, I AM still curious about "The Truth" as you put it, and I will never truly believe in something until I have witnessed it myself, which is more than can be said for half the members/trolls on this site who constantly parrot the "LOOOK AT DUR NASA PICS IT IS ROUND DUUUHHHH SHIPS AND SUNRISES HAAAA!" or "It appears flat, therefore it IS flat!" replies to what I believe to be a serious question.  That being said, if I had the money and resources, I would go south until I found out for myself.  What dissapoints me is that I have yet to find anyone who has presented that they have, in fact, been somewhere or saw something CONCRETE and INDISPUTABLE that proves either theory.  So...anyone have an airplane and a video recorder?

But why not just trust the testimonies of people who HAVE orbited the Earth or crossed Antarctica?

Probably something like "They work for teh evil government!"

Re: My Problem with the Conspiracy on FET (and an invititation to fix it)
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 12:06:23 PM »
Nah, they're all I have to go on at the moment, so I trust them.

The government is still evil though....